An Omnogov style bow
I have recently finished my version of the Omnogov bow. The original was found in Mongolia and carbon dated to the fairly recent date of 1720 +/- 100, although it has design similarities to the medieval Mongolian bows. It was described in "The Omnogov Bow" by Wayne Atex and G. Menes, JSA-A 38, pp 71-75. It is 51" nock-to-nock and 1 1/2" wide mid-limb. The bow has a bone plate in the grip belly and with its long wooden siyahs, only requires quite short sections of horn.
My version has a maple core, naturally curved apple siyahs, water buffalo horn and camel bone on the belly and a red deer leg sinew backing. The sinew is covered in birch-bark and the ears painted black. The original had the belly covered as well.
I thinned down the limbs from the original but over-did it slightly. The bow draws a little over 40lbs at 27" (my draw length is quite short).
Andrew
My version has a maple core, naturally curved apple siyahs, water buffalo horn and camel bone on the belly and a red deer leg sinew backing. The sinew is covered in birch-bark and the ears painted black. The original had the belly covered as well.
I thinned down the limbs from the original but over-did it slightly. The bow draws a little over 40lbs at 27" (my draw length is quite short).
Andrew
Another photo showing the bow drawn (probably only to 25")
Well done again.
I would be interesting to test those design at full draw weight, 70 lb and up just to see how they do.
I would be interesting to test those design at full draw weight, 70 lb and up just to see how they do.
It is an attractive and well made bow. It would look even more interesting if drawn several inches more. However, if I put that much work into anything, I would be cautious too.
Beautiful bow,what are Omnogov? form my practice, the birch-bark color on your picture is breakable, the un-breakable birch-bark will be deep yellow after soaking, it will like the hide, when you draw it , it will be outspread not break, the line on the birch-bark must thin and short and a few, this is result of same material at differ area? or wait some time the birch-bark dry it will break
Beautiful work Andrew.
How long is the horn pieces ?
How long is the horn pieces ?
very nice. Do you now velocity of the arrow, or range of shooting? It seems beautiful . I have been trying to make several bows with a long siahs, but my experience is a requirement to making bow over 70 pounds for plenty efect. With 120 pounds was distance over 200 meters with 70 gramś arrow. But bow was dryed for 3 month only and the bow was broken :oops: It seems i haveńt too patience :lol: I?m makink an indopersian bow at present, but very slowly.
You have my congratulation
You have my congratulation
Thanks for the compliments everyone. I am slowly learning the art of composite bowmaking.
The bow seems to store a fair amount of energy - more per lb than my Turkish style bow.
I had a chance to measure the speed of some arrows last night. Not too impressive, 156-160fps with a 1oz (437grain) arrow at 27". This is probably a combination of the low draw weight and the fairly dense wood of the siyahs. Without making a number of these bows for destruction testing, I don't know how much wood I can take off the siyahs to get them as light as possible before they blow (there is no sinew protecting them).
Redhorse, I suspect that a 70+lb version would be a good performer if the siyahs are kept light.
Bede, the bow has been drawn and shot at 27", but it is not a comfortable draw for me (creaky shoulder). The design looks like it should go to nearer 30", but there is no point in risking it.
Jiao, The bow was found in the Omnogov Aimak in the northern Gobi desert, Mongolia (there is an ?mn?govi in Google maps which may be the same area). The bark shows no sign of cracking yet, but I will keep an eye on it. How long would you recommend soaking the bark for before gluing?
Puzio, the horn strips are about 13" long.
M??a, Arrow speed listed above. I have not made any heavy bows as I would not be able to shoot them. How did your bow break? You can often learn more from failures than ones that work. Best of luck with the Indo-Persian.
Andrew
The bow seems to store a fair amount of energy - more per lb than my Turkish style bow.
I had a chance to measure the speed of some arrows last night. Not too impressive, 156-160fps with a 1oz (437grain) arrow at 27". This is probably a combination of the low draw weight and the fairly dense wood of the siyahs. Without making a number of these bows for destruction testing, I don't know how much wood I can take off the siyahs to get them as light as possible before they blow (there is no sinew protecting them).
Redhorse, I suspect that a 70+lb version would be a good performer if the siyahs are kept light.
Bede, the bow has been drawn and shot at 27", but it is not a comfortable draw for me (creaky shoulder). The design looks like it should go to nearer 30", but there is no point in risking it.
Jiao, The bow was found in the Omnogov Aimak in the northern Gobi desert, Mongolia (there is an ?mn?govi in Google maps which may be the same area). The bark shows no sign of cracking yet, but I will keep an eye on it. How long would you recommend soaking the bark for before gluing?
Puzio, the horn strips are about 13" long.
M??a, Arrow speed listed above. I have not made any heavy bows as I would not be able to shoot them. How did your bow break? You can often learn more from failures than ones that work. Best of luck with the Indo-Persian.
Andrew
i use carbamide soaking it , the urine also same works, i am soaking them in a water bottle,put carbamide in hand so put them in bottle, the effect you can see the water and bark will turn more yellow less a week , the steam take the bark damp soon , the water soaking so many day the bark not damp, add the carbamide it will damp at a week, i am not rember exact time, if the soaked bark contact the air turn the color brown，one side is yellow one side is brown,today i see the bark i saved one years, it is the bark form a 10cm diameter birch summer cut form my hometown and others is a large size form a mountain of north china, now so many chroma and time and steam and carbamide andurine make many result mix together,i can not know how i make it and which layer of the birch bark on the primal bark , the 10cm diameter and summer cut birch bark works still like the hide,
when i tear the bark in to so many layers , the line easy break, also when i draw it , i find the differ of the two bark of young and old , it still need more experiment but not so more in my home,after carbamide soaking the bamboo turn more hard and its inner layer is brown , the birch turn more soft some time when bend it will break into many long layer, the carbamide not works on sinew but the urine make sinew more hard, it is difficultly use a large container soaking a long baoboo or wood or large bark,the taste will so strong , also difficultly burying it in a safety park, in the soil has carbamide, the new cuting bark easy made, that will mean you will cut the bark form a tree in spring, or buy a lot bark only a few bark can use it, here they are buy thousand wood and bark not for a few and not allow you select a 300 ib wood from wood stack
i am sure the birch in inland north china people not need go the seaside make the birch bark, the carbamide use make the soft and compress wood , the birch bark is a part of the birch it is easy break like the birch, so i want soft it , also the horde has more sheep/ cow urine
i hope who can use carbamide soak birch bark and post all process picture form aboriginality detail to last step to the bow , thanks
ps , the urine soaking the bladder glue for one month i need courage to test it
when i tear the bark in to so many layers , the line easy break, also when i draw it , i find the differ of the two bark of young and old , it still need more experiment but not so more in my home,after carbamide soaking the bamboo turn more hard and its inner layer is brown , the birch turn more soft some time when bend it will break into many long layer, the carbamide not works on sinew but the urine make sinew more hard, it is difficultly use a large container soaking a long baoboo or wood or large bark,the taste will so strong , also difficultly burying it in a safety park, in the soil has carbamide, the new cuting bark easy made, that will mean you will cut the bark form a tree in spring, or buy a lot bark only a few bark can use it, here they are buy thousand wood and bark not for a few and not allow you select a 300 ib wood from wood stack
i am sure the birch in inland north china people not need go the seaside make the birch bark, the carbamide use make the soft and compress wood , the birch bark is a part of the birch it is easy break like the birch, so i want soft it , also the horde has more sheep/ cow urine
i hope who can use carbamide soak birch bark and post all process picture form aboriginality detail to last step to the bow , thanks
ps , the urine soaking the bladder glue for one month i need courage to test it
Andrew,
A sweet looking bow indeed, I love the long siyahs. At a little over 40# and 437gr arrows, I think the performance is quite reasonable. Maybe hack those large fletchings down to a low profile and the speed would increase a bit. Very nice bow.
A sweet looking bow indeed, I love the long siyahs. At a little over 40# and 437gr arrows, I think the performance is quite reasonable. Maybe hack those large fletchings down to a low profile and the speed would increase a bit. Very nice bow.
Handsome and well balanced bow,I love it. Congratulations.
Cem
Cem
Hi Andrew.
My bow was contemporary form of Mongolian bow, 58 inches long, the frame from a birch wood,belly from zebu horn, backing from cow tendons. The bow was glued by a tendons glue,. Siahs from several layers of spruce covered by cow bone. Draw weight aproximately 120 pounds (a little bit more). The bow breaks during a competition :lol: on the passing between handle and upper limb.
My bow was contemporary form of Mongolian bow, 58 inches long, the frame from a birch wood,belly from zebu horn, backing from cow tendons. The bow was glued by a tendons glue,. Siahs from several layers of spruce covered by cow bone. Draw weight aproximately 120 pounds (a little bit more). The bow breaks during a competition :lol: on the passing between handle and upper limb.
My guess is that those siyahs should hold for 70+lb. Compare with selfbow so they should hold.
Hoe did you secure the horn against the handle? Closer look and I see there is bone in middle. Forget the q.
Hoe did you secure the horn against the handle? Closer look and I see there is bone in middle. Forget the q.
I also have to add, nice arrow. Are those commercial banana fletchings or you made them with a burner? I bet they have selfnocks.
Jiao, thanks for the information. I will bear it in mind for my next bow.
Orda, I don't think the large fletchings slow down the arrow much between bow and chronograph, but they act like parachutes at long distance. I will have to see how well some lower-profile fletchings work so I can take the bow to some field shoots.
M??a, With the amount of work in a composite, any failures are unfortunate. Was the break caused by a glue failure causing delamination or a failure of the materials? I have had core-horn delamination and a cracked core in some previous bows, but I managed to unstring them without explosions. (I heard a heavy war-bow weight self-yew longbow explode at a roving marks a few years ago - quite a bang from the other end of the shooting line).
Redhorse, I am much more nervous about removing wood from the siyahs of a composite than the ends of a self-bow. Part of this is the nocks cutting through the growth rings in the siyahs. The amount of work in the bows makes me tend towards safety and overbuild them.
Jos?Dom, the fletchings were cut with a feather cutter - low-profile(!) banana cut. This shape seems to be a common form in medieval illustrations. The arrows are self-nocked.
Andrew
Orda, I don't think the large fletchings slow down the arrow much between bow and chronograph, but they act like parachutes at long distance. I will have to see how well some lower-profile fletchings work so I can take the bow to some field shoots.
M??a, With the amount of work in a composite, any failures are unfortunate. Was the break caused by a glue failure causing delamination or a failure of the materials? I have had core-horn delamination and a cracked core in some previous bows, but I managed to unstring them without explosions. (I heard a heavy war-bow weight self-yew longbow explode at a roving marks a few years ago - quite a bang from the other end of the shooting line).
Redhorse, I am much more nervous about removing wood from the siyahs of a composite than the ends of a self-bow. Part of this is the nocks cutting through the growth rings in the siyahs. The amount of work in the bows makes me tend towards safety and overbuild them.
Jos?Dom, the fletchings were cut with a feather cutter - low-profile(!) banana cut. This shape seems to be a common form in medieval illustrations. The arrows are self-nocked.
Andrew
Yep it's risk every first time you brace a bow. I do many crash test all the time. If not sure make a dummy and test it before you glue it on the bow.
My guess is that less then 70 lb it don't take so much. But over and bone on ears and other places makes sense. Hunting in Siberia you don't worry if you lose 10 yards distance because of the horn tips. You just draw an inch more and get plenty of speed :)
My guess is that less then 70 lb it don't take so much. But over and bone on ears and other places makes sense. Hunting in Siberia you don't worry if you lose 10 yards distance because of the horn tips. You just draw an inch more and get plenty of speed :)
The core was glued in "V" shape - handle to limb -and siahs was glued flat to flat. Problem was cracking in the top of handleś part of "V" putting of the core.(if we will meet in Busan, Iĺl sketch the problem :lol: ). I have been making the support immediately, but it was imposible to save the bow :wink:
I thing, that basically mistake was very short time of dryig.
Next problem is ,maybe, the shape of glued surfaces - horn to wood. Maybe concave shape of the horn is more harden support and it isń necessary to make limbs so thick and width for making the strong bow. Flat putting is much easier for making but such problemś are more probable
I thing, that basically mistake was very short time of dryig.
Next problem is ,maybe, the shape of glued surfaces - horn to wood. Maybe concave shape of the horn is more harden support and it isń necessary to make limbs so thick and width for making the strong bow. Flat putting is much easier for making but such problemś are more probable
Wow, cool..... Don't you have any trouble with the long siyahs? I made an ash-fiberglass laminated kitay bow (large, and little bit like the bows in paintings about mongolian mounted archers), and I sanded the under siyah just a little bit to the left. The bow is still shooting, but it is not...estetic; it probably will turn out.
Zolt
Zolt
Andrew,
I noticed also the arrow is a fairly large diameter, have you tried 5/16"? At that poundage I think they'd perform better
This picture is one of the last dozen I made (plastic nocks I admit, but I'm glad they were :cry: ) I take the last 8" down to 9/32" diameter. The fletchings are hand cut 5.75" long and as you can see, at the highest point, they are roughly 5/16" - 3/8" and up front is a 100gr pile.
I noticed also the arrow is a fairly large diameter, have you tried 5/16"? At that poundage I think they'd perform better
This picture is one of the last dozen I made (plastic nocks I admit, but I'm glad they were :cry: ) I take the last 8" down to 9/32" diameter. The fletchings are hand cut 5.75" long and as you can see, at the highest point, they are roughly 5/16" - 3/8" and up front is a 100gr pile.
M??a, I have shot bows with only a couple of month of drying time, but not at your sort of draw weights. All the bows I have made so far have had a flat rather than curved surface between the core and horn as it is easier to make. I am intending to try a curved surface on a bow once I have made a matching pair of scrapers.
Zolt?n, the bow has some twist in the limbs, but still seem quite stable despite the length of the siyahs.
Orda, the arrows are 5/16" pine shafts. Nice "Robin Hood" - I have never managed such a tidy split.
Zolt?n, the bow has some twist in the limbs, but still seem quite stable despite the length of the siyahs.
Orda, the arrows are 5/16" pine shafts. Nice "Robin Hood" - I have never managed such a tidy split.
My apologies Andrew, the arrow looked bigger. Maybe it's my tired eyes.
gorgeous bow, love the siyahs. Short horn strips, too, only 13"....very doable.
Can we see an unbraced profile of tthis bow?
Very, very nice! I expect that with the siyahs formed from natural curved apple wood, that they would stand a fair amount oif weight. Espesially if reinforced ears of bone were added. Someone may correct me.
A closeup of the thickness from abouve off those siyahs would provide good info.
As for the birch bark? What is the portion best used, just under the white paperry stuff or deeper down? I assume the bark used is of light weight papery quality in general composite use???
Congratz on a fine bow Sir!
Very, very nice! I expect that with the siyahs formed from natural curved apple wood, that they would stand a fair amount oif weight. Espesially if reinforced ears of bone were added. Someone may correct me.
A closeup of the thickness from abouve off those siyahs would provide good info.
As for the birch bark? What is the portion best used, just under the white paperry stuff or deeper down? I assume the bark used is of light weight papery quality in general composite use???
Congratz on a fine bow Sir!