Interesting Persian image of shower-shooting technique
Got a link to this image from an arms-and-armor discussion group:
[external image]
The archer at the bottom center seems to be using the kind of shower-shooting technique described by Taybugha. The most interesting thing is the way he holds the arrows with the point (rather than the feathers) in the drawing hand--am I right in assuming that it is perfectly legitimate to do it with the arrows facing either way? I can see the point-in-the hand version working for piles and bodkins, but for broadheads I'd rather risk ruining my feathers than cut my hand to ribbons.
(Maybe this should go into the Technique board instead, but I'm not sure so I'll just post it here and let the moderators decide.)
[external image]
![[external image]](http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Oriental/Detail_Iranian_dish_1228.jpg){kind=link}
The archer at the bottom center seems to be using the kind of shower-shooting technique described by Taybugha. The most interesting thing is the way he holds the arrows with the point (rather than the feathers) in the drawing hand--am I right in assuming that it is perfectly legitimate to do it with the arrows facing either way? I can see the point-in-the hand version working for piles and bodkins, but for broadheads I'd rather risk ruining my feathers than cut my hand to ribbons.
(Maybe this should go into the Technique board instead, but I'm not sure so I'll just post it here and let the moderators decide.)
I think that generally the points were outside the hand as in the Japanese method. Otherwise the arrows would stick out sideways and get in the way of other soldiers. This is a Kashan plate and quite early, but there is a depiction of the same style of holding arrows on a piece of thirteenth century metal work from Mosul or Aleppo, I think, where the archer is a horseman rather than in a siege situation.
In both cases I think the arrows are being held between the little finger and the ring finger. The points, though not depicted, would be pointing up and slightly away from the face. I have used this technique for many years and would prefer to have my broadheads pointing up rather than down towards my thigh and the femural artery.
If I am not wrong, the image was first published in colour in a Thames and Hudson book on Islamic art. I can't tell you the title as I am several thousand miles away from my library. It would be very interesting to know if the image is in the public domain.
In both cases I think the arrows are being held between the little finger and the ring finger. The points, though not depicted, would be pointing up and slightly away from the face. I have used this technique for many years and would prefer to have my broadheads pointing up rather than down towards my thigh and the femural artery.
If I am not wrong, the image was first published in colour in a Thames and Hudson book on Islamic art. I can't tell you the title as I am several thousand miles away from my library. It would be very interesting to know if the image is in the public domain.
Duh. An embarrassing blooper--the shower-shooting techniques I'm talking about weren't described in Taybugha's, but rather in the anonymous Arab Archery work.
BTW, Bede, do you have any pictures of your technique for holding the arrows in the way you described in the second paragraph of your post? I think I've tried similar techniques with mixed success, and a comparison with the method you use might be useful in showing me what I did wrong in the failed attempts.
I'd also be curious about any comments anybody can offer about the Faris & Elmer translation of the rapid-shooting section in Arab Archery. Do I need to watch out for potential mistranslations or interpretations taken a bit too far?
BTW, Bede, do you have any pictures of your technique for holding the arrows in the way you described in the second paragraph of your post? I think I've tried similar techniques with mixed success, and a comparison with the method you use might be useful in showing me what I did wrong in the failed attempts.
I'd also be curious about any comments anybody can offer about the Faris & Elmer translation of the rapid-shooting section in Arab Archery. Do I need to watch out for potential mistranslations or interpretations taken a bit too far?
This technique is for shooting three arrows one after another in a fast sequence. We have found a coin from Seldjuk (Sultan Rukneddin era) time on which a mounted archer shooting with the same techniqe is depicted. I was lucky enough to see the original coin in the Istanbul Archaelogical Museum's collection.
I think this technique was invented for close quarter fighting and hunting, especially on horseback.
Could you please tell me the exact origin of this depiction. Is that really Persian?
M.
I think this technique was invented for close quarter fighting and hunting, especially on horseback.
Could you please tell me the exact origin of this depiction. Is that really Persian?
M.
Opps! Tried to attach the picture of the coin but failed. Please see Picture 1 in
http://www.turkishculture.org/pages.php ... ageContent
http://www.turkishculture.org/pages.php ... ageContent
Murat,
The image is from a plate from Kashan in Iran. It has been published several times.
The image is from a plate from Kashan in Iran. It has been published several times.
There are probably clearer pictures of the coin of Kilij Arslan IV amongst these: http://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=2322
The coin is quite rare and I've yet to come across one for sale.
The coin is quite rare and I've yet to come across one for sale.
[quote = "Murat ?zveri"] Opps! Paranın resmi takmak i?in ?alıştı ama başarısız oldu. L?tfen Resim 1 bakın
http://www.turkishculture.org/pages.php ... 8&miMore=1 # PageContent [/ quote]
Anadolu Sel?ukluları
Anatolia Seljuks
http://www.turkishculture.org/pages.php ... 8&miMore=1 # PageContent [/ quote]
Anadolu Sel?ukluları
Anatolia Seljuks
This technique , Mosul , Aleppo , Persian normal to see ,Turkey had dominated in these areas , review date.
Mamluk state official name: Ed Devletu't Turkey .
Mosul , Aleppo , Persian in these areas still oan speak Turkish.
Mamluk state official name: Ed Devletu't Turkey .
Mosul , Aleppo , Persian in these areas still oan speak Turkish.
That is a fine striking of the coin. The sharpness of the lines shows what a high quality mint it came from.
The arrow head looks like a hunting head of a type that is similar to east Asian ones. However, the position of the horseman's leg is similar to European and Byzantine technique and he seems to have spurs in some coins. This suggests that the image is a standard one rather than a portrait or a representation of a contemporary Turk. The upper part could be transplanted from a contemporary image onto an older image. The sultan may have liked the look of the horse.
The arrow head looks like a hunting head of a type that is similar to east Asian ones. However, the position of the horseman's leg is similar to European and Byzantine technique and he seems to have spurs in some coins. This suggests that the image is a standard one rather than a portrait or a representation of a contemporary Turk. The upper part could be transplanted from a contemporary image onto an older image. The sultan may have liked the look of the horse.
Anadolu Sel?ukluları
Anadolu Sel?uklu [/ quote]
Anadolu Sel?uklu [/ quote]
Look at this pic attached. It is from Fatih Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror's scribble book. It shows early Ottoman horsearchers holding the arrows in the drawing hand. I use this technique on horseback and it is really convenient. As to the question weather the points should look up or down, it doesnt matter for an experienced archer. if you have big broadheads you can keep the points down, if you have small Turkish bodkins you can keep them up. The technique is almost the same.
I demonstrated this technique in EOCHA this year and people were astonished as most of them used the 3 finger release and also those who used a thumb release didnt know it. Feedback was positive.
While using this technique I even used an arrow which was between my fingers as a whip, then nocked and shot.
Concerning the dish with the picture, it might be from todays Kashan/Iran, but it doesnt mean that the people depicted are not Turks, remember Iran was part of the Seljuk Empire and still today the second language in Iran is Turkish.
Anyway it doesnt matter as I strongly assume this technique was widespread among all horsearchers as it obviously has great advantages. The Japanese use it too and I have even seen a historic Korean painting with this technique.
cheers
Gokmen
[/img]
I demonstrated this technique in EOCHA this year and people were astonished as most of them used the 3 finger release and also those who used a thumb release didnt know it. Feedback was positive.
While using this technique I even used an arrow which was between my fingers as a whip, then nocked and shot.
Concerning the dish with the picture, it might be from todays Kashan/Iran, but it doesnt mean that the people depicted are not Turks, remember Iran was part of the Seljuk Empire and still today the second language in Iran is Turkish.
Anyway it doesnt matter as I strongly assume this technique was widespread among all horsearchers as it obviously has great advantages. The Japanese use it too and I have even seen a historic Korean painting with this technique.
cheers
Gokmen
[/img]
I find that the arrows wobble quite a lot when my draw hand follows through - is there any way of stopping this?
Gokmen,
I cannot see that this painting shows anything other than someone holding an arrow in their drawing hand. It does not suggest anything other than they might be going to shoot. The other examples in this thread show people drawing and holding at the same time. There is no reason that the Osmanli soldiers did not draw with arrows in the drawing hand, but there is little evidence. The shorter quivers that became popular are probably the reason that it died out.
In the illustrations showing arrows held in the drawing hand and the current Japanese practice all show the arrows point up. This keeps the points away from your thigh and the the femoral artery. Perhaps in fighting, you could punch an enemy who suddenly got too close with a fistful of arrowheads.
Most of us who have shot this way realise that you can hold many more arrows than the two often shown in the old illustrations. However, does using the greater number make sense? Probably in charging an enemy, you would not have had a chance to shoot more than three arrows before you have to either charge home or veer off to avoid contact. The first choice would involved in putting away the bow and drawing a sword or mace. The second would require you to take up the reins and turn your horse's head away from the enemy.
Regarding the Kashan plate, the armour ad the hairstyles suggest that the archers are Turks, possibly Selcuk from the location and time that is was produced.
I cannot see that this painting shows anything other than someone holding an arrow in their drawing hand. It does not suggest anything other than they might be going to shoot. The other examples in this thread show people drawing and holding at the same time. There is no reason that the Osmanli soldiers did not draw with arrows in the drawing hand, but there is little evidence. The shorter quivers that became popular are probably the reason that it died out.
In the illustrations showing arrows held in the drawing hand and the current Japanese practice all show the arrows point up. This keeps the points away from your thigh and the the femoral artery. Perhaps in fighting, you could punch an enemy who suddenly got too close with a fistful of arrowheads.
Most of us who have shot this way realise that you can hold many more arrows than the two often shown in the old illustrations. However, does using the greater number make sense? Probably in charging an enemy, you would not have had a chance to shoot more than three arrows before you have to either charge home or veer off to avoid contact. The first choice would involved in putting away the bow and drawing a sword or mace. The second would require you to take up the reins and turn your horse's head away from the enemy.
Regarding the Kashan plate, the armour ad the hairstyles suggest that the archers are Turks, possibly Selcuk from the location and time that is was produced.
Shooting with a closed quiver is a good time to hold arrows in the drawing hand. You can easily select several with the same type of head and be prepared for a rapid retreat or a sudden attack. This is a good painting of the "Parthian shot".
Hi Bede
yes, the picture is a bit debatable, it is not fully clear.
Even though I believe it shows the technique we were speaking of.
If you look at the bow arm , it is fully straightened and the tip of the bow is bent forward. It seems pretty much like a follow through just a split second after a shot.
Maybe others can share their opinion too on this picture.
Anyway, regarding a historical document about the Ottomans using this technique, a friend of mine found an astonishing document where they mention this technique. But unfortunately I can't tell you more for now as my friend will publish it. He will tell us more soon.
So there is evidence :)
Thanks
Gokmen
yes, the picture is a bit debatable, it is not fully clear.
Even though I believe it shows the technique we were speaking of.
If you look at the bow arm , it is fully straightened and the tip of the bow is bent forward. It seems pretty much like a follow through just a split second after a shot.
Maybe others can share their opinion too on this picture.
Anyway, regarding a historical document about the Ottomans using this technique, a friend of mine found an astonishing document where they mention this technique. But unfortunately I can't tell you more for now as my friend will publish it. He will tell us more soon.
So there is evidence :)
Thanks
Gokmen
Gokmen,
It is not unusual for bows to shown at full draw with the upper tip tilting slightly forward. In the Turkish painting, the archer could have either been pointing with his bow hand towards the target or he could have been holding the bow in the hatrah (khatrah in Arabic) follow-through position while bringing up the next arrow to shoot.
You have probably noticed that the photographs of Turkish archers in the 1930s that they hold the bow arm fully extended when they are nocking or preparing to shoot. This means that in any rapid shooting contest, they could keep the bow arm straight and minimise the amount of movement that it needed to make. There would be a change in the attitude of the arm to start the drawing process, but it would be small compared to the whole process of bringing the bow hand down to waist or chest level and a more central position.
I originally thought they started the draw that way because of the siper, but practise has shown there is no major advantage for the siper user except for lining up the arrow in the groove.
It is not unusual for bows to shown at full draw with the upper tip tilting slightly forward. In the Turkish painting, the archer could have either been pointing with his bow hand towards the target or he could have been holding the bow in the hatrah (khatrah in Arabic) follow-through position while bringing up the next arrow to shoot.
You have probably noticed that the photographs of Turkish archers in the 1930s that they hold the bow arm fully extended when they are nocking or preparing to shoot. This means that in any rapid shooting contest, they could keep the bow arm straight and minimise the amount of movement that it needed to make. There would be a change in the attitude of the arm to start the drawing process, but it would be small compared to the whole process of bringing the bow hand down to waist or chest level and a more central position.
I originally thought they started the draw that way because of the siper, but practise has shown there is no major advantage for the siper user except for lining up the arrow in the groove.
:lol: Litlle misunderstand text TZH. Its not KAKASLOMNIC ,but frecsa from TATRANSKA LOMNICA - Slovakia. Not Transilvania.Once i show this pic because interesting hold arows technik. :wink:
You are speaking about arrow under hand holding bow?Itś very rare
I don't think that is an arrow under the bow. If you look closely, it is a spear thrust through the archer's chest and coming out his back. You can see the point under his elbow on the right of the picture. He is not a healthy archer.
Wow... I didn't know that Kakaslomnic is in Slovakia, though a part of my family came from the old Highlands. My failure.
TZH
TZH
Tatranska Lomnica - not Kakaslomnic... Its in High Tatras our Slovak higher mountains Karpaty.
Isn't it fantastic how hungarian mithology had influenced the art even in the slowakian mountains? :D Ok, just kidding.
TZH
TZH
Dusan wrote:
Tatranska Lomnica - not Kakaslomnic... Its in High Tatras our Slovak higher mountains Karpaty.
Well, not exactly. Kakaslomnic is what you now call Velka Lomnica.
Szabi
:) Hey , Magyar boys, you try started lingvistic toponimus debate about original names ? Never been som "Kakas..." before , because we have toponim names before central asiatic tribes galoped in our country.
/ One can renames in Slavic origin half of Magyars villages and towns.../
More than magyars name , towns around High Tataras can use Germans names , because here was settled many germans millers. I mean its out topic.
Important info is - fresca was from Slovakia.
/ One can renames in Slavic origin half of Magyars villages and towns.../
More than magyars name , towns around High Tataras can use Germans names , because here was settled many germans millers. I mean its out topic.
Important info is - fresca was from Slovakia.
Sounds kinda funny here.Dusan wrote:
before central asiatic tribes galoped in our country.
Another important info is the other guy on the fresco (I can't remember the name...)Dusan wrote:
Important info is - fresca was from Slovakia.
OK, don't take it too seriously.
Szabi
You mean the hungarian king, Szabi? :)
Ok, seriously, the slaws in the Karpathians became part of the most succesful tribe-union in the Charpatian-basin. They weren't hurt (ok, they werent hurt so much) by mongols, ottomans, and could live their own little life, a big part due to the hungarian weapons. We have together a greath history of 900-1000 years. What's wrong with it, brother?? This whole nationalist (slowakian-moravian, hun-magyar) sh..... came with the french revolution...
TZH
Ok, seriously, the slaws in the Karpathians became part of the most succesful tribe-union in the Charpatian-basin. They weren't hurt (ok, they werent hurt so much) by mongols, ottomans, and could live their own little life, a big part due to the hungarian weapons. We have together a greath history of 900-1000 years. What's wrong with it, brother?? This whole nationalist (slowakian-moravian, hun-magyar) sh..... came with the french revolution...
TZH