Physical Weight of Bows
Hello everyone,
I just wanted to share some things and ask a few questions of you all.
I finished measuring the weight of the component parts of my Korean hornbow and wanted to share them with you.
They are all raw materials,
I still need to thin the siyhas, and cut the splices. Everything else was very close to finished form.
Bamboo core ( 1/8 x 27") 1.3 ounces
2 Ash siyhas (7/16 x 15") 4.8 ounces
Oak handle ( 1/2 x 6" ) 0.8 ounces
2 water buffalo horn strips (3/16-1/16" x 1" wide) 5.5 ounces
5 Bark strips (46" by 2" when laid out) 0.3 ounces
5 Sinews (deer, backleg, ~9") 0.9 ounces
Overall with this I am at 13.7 ounces.
I want to ask how much weight is used in hide glue, when dry, on hornbows, for sinew, horn, and splices?
Also, what is the weight of other types of hornbows? If you have one could you please measure it. It doesn't matter what style of bow it is. Thomas could you also get the weight of a Korean hb? I asked physh for the weight of the lam. version, but I am unsure how long it will take him.
I just wanted to share some things and ask a few questions of you all.
I finished measuring the weight of the component parts of my Korean hornbow and wanted to share them with you.
They are all raw materials,
I still need to thin the siyhas, and cut the splices. Everything else was very close to finished form.
Bamboo core ( 1/8 x 27") 1.3 ounces
2 Ash siyhas (7/16 x 15") 4.8 ounces
Oak handle ( 1/2 x 6" ) 0.8 ounces
2 water buffalo horn strips (3/16-1/16" x 1" wide) 5.5 ounces
5 Bark strips (46" by 2" when laid out) 0.3 ounces
5 Sinews (deer, backleg, ~9") 0.9 ounces
Overall with this I am at 13.7 ounces.
I want to ask how much weight is used in hide glue, when dry, on hornbows, for sinew, horn, and splices?
Also, what is the weight of other types of hornbows? If you have one could you please measure it. It doesn't matter what style of bow it is. Thomas could you also get the weight of a Korean hb? I asked physh for the weight of the lam. version, but I am unsure how long it will take him.
I was browsing atarn.org and found the weight of some turkish bows. They are target/infantry bows 49".
They weight 330+ grams. Which is around 11.64 ounces.
Might help somebody who is making a turkish bow.
I also got the weight of a Korean laminated bow. It is around 11-12 ounces.
I hope to see more weights up here soon.
:)
SW
They weight 330+ grams. Which is around 11.64 ounces.
Might help somebody who is making a turkish bow.
I also got the weight of a Korean laminated bow. It is around 11-12 ounces.
I hope to see more weights up here soon.
:)
SW
SW,
I'll see what I can do. My bows are in at our other place, and I won't be there again until this weekend.
T
I'll see what I can do. My bows are in at our other place, and I won't be there again until this weekend.
T
That is ok thomas, I just like to know it is coming. ;)
By the way,
for everyone else I got the weight of my 2 year old (almost) Old Scythian Bow from Csaba Grozer.
It is 35# @ 28". And weighs in at around 16.4 - 16.5 ounces. It doesn't really seem heavy in the hand, it is a lot lighter than many bows I have held. But it seems many bows are much lighter than that.
By the way,
for everyone else I got the weight of my 2 year old (almost) Old Scythian Bow from Csaba Grozer.
It is 35# @ 28". And weighs in at around 16.4 - 16.5 ounces. It doesn't really seem heavy in the hand, it is a lot lighter than many bows I have held. But it seems many bows are much lighter than that.
ttt-
really looking forward to that data Thomas.
really looking forward to that data Thomas.
SW,
It may be some time, as I haven't been off campus in a couple weeks. Maybe in the next couple of weeks.
T
It may be some time, as I haven't been off campus in a couple weeks. Maybe in the next couple of weeks.
T
Ok, sounds good :)
Just wanted to get this up here so people like yokua and adam K. can put their weights up here.
Just wanted to get this up here so people like yokua and adam K. can put their weights up here.
Ok I have another weight, it is of a Tartar bow from Northern China, It weighs 4.5 pounds.
SW,
I went into town today and retrieved an old horn bow I own. I don't have a scale, so I had to construct a makeshift one by bundling some arrows of known weight and balancing the bow opposite them. It worked out to be about 367 grams. It's just an approximation, though.
T
I went into town today and retrieved an old horn bow I own. I don't have a scale, so I had to construct a makeshift one by bundling some arrows of known weight and balancing the bow opposite them. It worked out to be about 367 grams. It's just an approximation, though.
T
ok, that sounds great Thomas. Thanks for the info,
SW
SW
hello,
my scythian hornbows run from 320-420grams,depending on the thickness of the sinewbacking,the horn and bowwood I used and the decoration.
Discussing this topic makes me always crazy when modern bowyers are talking about the efficiency of the materials they use,till I realized with a test that one layer of sinewbacking weighs physically(sinew and hideglue) 90grams and gives 14lbs more drawweight.Thats efficiency!The test was done with a hornbow made of mountain-goat horn and sinew(nothing else).
my scythian hornbows run from 320-420grams,depending on the thickness of the sinewbacking,the horn and bowwood I used and the decoration.
Discussing this topic makes me always crazy when modern bowyers are talking about the efficiency of the materials they use,till I realized with a test that one layer of sinewbacking weighs physically(sinew and hideglue) 90grams and gives 14lbs more drawweight.Thats efficiency!The test was done with a hornbow made of mountain-goat horn and sinew(nothing else).
I weighted all my horn bows...
One weights around 420 grams (70-80#, 49"), another 410 but it's 52# and 49", a new one, that still has to be reduced (siyahs and tillered) weights 408, but it is shorter, around 46-47", I don't know the draw weight, it will probably end at around 380 grams.
One thing for sure, measuring the weight of components doesn't take into account the weight of glue... it is quite substantial in sinew.
Alberto
One weights around 420 grams (70-80#, 49"), another 410 but it's 52# and 49", a new one, that still has to be reduced (siyahs and tillered) weights 408, but it is shorter, around 46-47", I don't know the draw weight, it will probably end at around 380 grams.
One thing for sure, measuring the weight of components doesn't take into account the weight of glue... it is quite substantial in sinew.
Alberto
Alberto,
thats right:what I?ve weighted was the hideglue-grain,without the water and the dry sinewfibres.
thats right:what I?ve weighted was the hideglue-grain,without the water and the dry sinewfibres.
But how do you know how much glue will go in there? There is quite a lot of waste, so its quite difficult to judge the amount before... Sure it can give a rough idea... Alberto
hi Alberto,
interesting thought,if I look at my fingers full of hideglue,maybe 30%?
But this waste means that there is more efficiency in these sinew/hideglue-layers.I?ll check it out.Tomorrow I?ll have to sinew-back another sheephorn bow.So I?ll weigh the bows horncore ,the sinew-bundles and the hideglue.And I?ll weigh the bow when it will be ready.
interesting thought,if I look at my fingers full of hideglue,maybe 30%?
But this waste means that there is more efficiency in these sinew/hideglue-layers.I?ll check it out.Tomorrow I?ll have to sinew-back another sheephorn bow.So I?ll weigh the bows horncore ,the sinew-bundles and the hideglue.And I?ll weigh the bow when it will be ready.
Sam Uri Warrior; I give this to you hoping that you make a complete list available when you finish.
1. Very old Korean Bow, C. pre 1900, 257 gr. 126 cm. Complete bow.
2. Indo-Persian Crab bow, 1700-1800s, 568 gr., 131cm. Complete
3. Chiojisuren/Ju Yan Ho Chinese bow for Mongolian Market, c.1950, 607 gr., 161 cm. The wooden siyahs have been cut down.
4. Qing Folding Stone Bow, C. 1800-1900, 656 gr., 139 cm. Siyahs cut down drastically and iron hinge added.
5. Modern Mongolian Target Horn Bow, 2000 AD., 801 gr., 167 cm. complete bow.
6. Qing Chinese Military Bow, C. 1800-1900, 852 gr., 181 cm. complete bow.
1. Very old Korean Bow, C. pre 1900, 257 gr. 126 cm. Complete bow.
2. Indo-Persian Crab bow, 1700-1800s, 568 gr., 131cm. Complete
3. Chiojisuren/Ju Yan Ho Chinese bow for Mongolian Market, c.1950, 607 gr., 161 cm. The wooden siyahs have been cut down.
4. Qing Folding Stone Bow, C. 1800-1900, 656 gr., 139 cm. Siyahs cut down drastically and iron hinge added.
5. Modern Mongolian Target Horn Bow, 2000 AD., 801 gr., 167 cm. complete bow.
6. Qing Chinese Military Bow, C. 1800-1900, 852 gr., 181 cm. complete bow.
hi again,maybe I have started to spent to much time in in this forum.
The physical weight of bows seems be a very important question in the construction of traditonal bows.I just remembered a talk with a Native American bowyer I?ve had 12 years ago.He told me that his grandfather preferred the heaviest horns he could find for the construction of buffalo or mountain sheephorn-bows.He told me also that the hornbowyers of his
Cheyenne ancestors and the Nez Perce Indians watched for a while the buffalos and mountain sheeps before they killed one to take the horns.They were prefering animals not to old(maybe he told me 3 or 4 years old ones),they also had a look what the animals were eating.
If I have to built a selfbow with a heavy drawweight,I prefer also a heavy stave.
The physical weight of bows seems be a very important question in the construction of traditonal bows.I just remembered a talk with a Native American bowyer I?ve had 12 years ago.He told me that his grandfather preferred the heaviest horns he could find for the construction of buffalo or mountain sheephorn-bows.He told me also that the hornbowyers of his
Cheyenne ancestors and the Nez Perce Indians watched for a while the buffalos and mountain sheeps before they killed one to take the horns.They were prefering animals not to old(maybe he told me 3 or 4 years old ones),they also had a look what the animals were eating.
If I have to built a selfbow with a heavy drawweight,I prefer also a heavy stave.
Redhawk; I just wanted to clear up one point, as this is the second time that you have mentioned bison horn bows among the Native Americans. This idea probably started with Jim Hamm, Bows and Arrows of the Native Americans, when he put his idea of such a bow on the cover of his book. Reginald Laubin, Native American Archery, may have created the confusion when he declared that Indian hornbows of Elkhorn may have had a wooden core. But T M Hamilton, Native American Bows, cleared all that up by correctly stating that THERE IS NO WOOD CORE ON A NATIVE AMERICAN HORNBOW. A contributor to that book, Bill Holm, professor emeritus of history, has made a survey of all known specimins of these horn bows, made complete measurements, and determined that there is no wood core. There are no known bison horn bows, there are no known longhorn bows, there are no known bison rib bows.
Another overstatement by Hamm is that a sinew-backed Osage bow is the ultimate Native American bow. In fact, sinewed Osage bows are rather rare in museum collections. The simple reason, as Tim Baker has amply proved, is that sinew only slows down the arrow speed on an Osage bow. And sinewing cripples the production speed of self bows.
When someone makes a claim about a Native bow, I ask where such an item can be seen. Nothing more fun than traveling to a new museum to see archery stuff.
Keep up your good reproductions. Jack
Another overstatement by Hamm is that a sinew-backed Osage bow is the ultimate Native American bow. In fact, sinewed Osage bows are rather rare in museum collections. The simple reason, as Tim Baker has amply proved, is that sinew only slows down the arrow speed on an Osage bow. And sinewing cripples the production speed of self bows.
When someone makes a claim about a Native bow, I ask where such an item can be seen. Nothing more fun than traveling to a new museum to see archery stuff.
Keep up your good reproductions. Jack
hi Jack,
I know these books,and this discussion,but I?ve talked with Native American bowyers and they have told me that their ancestors have done bisonhorn-bows with wooden core and some of them know how to do it today without having read Jim Hamm?s books.
Anyway I prefer the mountainsheep-hornbow without wooden core.The bisonhorn-bows I?ve rebuilt are really fine bows and have a good perfomance.
I don?t believe in the existence of cowhorn-bows but anyway they are mentioned,as you can see in the appendix of Mason?s book page 142.
Bows made of bone have been made by the Inuit.Mason himself posted in his book statements of Native Americans talking about bison rib bows made by their ancestors.
I know these books,and this discussion,but I?ve talked with Native American bowyers and they have told me that their ancestors have done bisonhorn-bows with wooden core and some of them know how to do it today without having read Jim Hamm?s books.
Anyway I prefer the mountainsheep-hornbow without wooden core.The bisonhorn-bows I?ve rebuilt are really fine bows and have a good perfomance.
I don?t believe in the existence of cowhorn-bows but anyway they are mentioned,as you can see in the appendix of Mason?s book page 142.
Bows made of bone have been made by the Inuit.Mason himself posted in his book statements of Native Americans talking about bison rib bows made by their ancestors.
Redhawk; With all the millions of bison which once lived in North America, why is it that there are no bison horn bows to be seen in any museum?
You can put a laser sight on a flintlock and it will work just fine but that does not prove that they were used. :wink:
You can put a laser sight on a flintlock and it will work just fine but that does not prove that they were used. :wink:
I don't even remember seeing horns on Bison... :roll:
hi Jack
life is more than a museum.I?ve just reported what some Native Americans have told me and I saw the hornbows they?ve done.
I think this topic and this forum is not the place to discuss this question any further.We can go on privately.
life is more than a museum.I?ve just reported what some Native Americans have told me and I saw the hornbows they?ve done.
I think this topic and this forum is not the place to discuss this question any further.We can go on privately.
I just finished my bow, except for adding the sinew. It weight around 8.2-5 ounces. It's hard to tell with the postal scale I have. That puts it around 232-241 grams.
The sinew weighs around 3 ounces. Or 85 grams. Some of it has glue in it and some is freshly seperated. I am pretty sure that it is enough for the bow.
This bow is probably going to be on the heavy side. As the horn is just over 3/16" thick for most of its length.
The sinew weighs around 3 ounces. Or 85 grams. Some of it has glue in it and some is freshly seperated. I am pretty sure that it is enough for the bow.
This bow is probably going to be on the heavy side. As the horn is just over 3/16" thick for most of its length.