The bow- finding of olon kurin gol
In November of 2006 a Russian- Mongolian- German expedition succeded in excavating a Scythian grave- site in the valley of the olon kurin gol- river in the Altai- region located on Mongolian territory.
Due to the permafrost the excavated man and objects were in a very good condition.
An almost completely conserved goritos, arrows with wooden tips, heavily twisted but still perfectly barreled, feathers have been rottened by time.
The bow turned out to be a bundle of wooden slats, kept together by the fealth cap of the goritos, 2 small pieces of horn laying near the bow.
It was decided to ship all excavated objects to the Institute of the Russian Academy of Science leaded by Dr. Molodyn near the Siberian town of Novosibirsk. In the meanwhile the excavtions are back in Mongolia for to be presented in a museum.
Due to a grant of the "Gerda Henkel grant" the reconstruction of the bow, arrows, goritos, some cloth was made possible. It began with an invitation of the Russian Academy of Science to study the findings at the institute near Novosibirsk. The leader is Prof. Dr. Godehardt, University of Duesseldorf.
The bow measures 121cm over all its curvature in length, max. width is 3cm, max.thickness is 2.8cm at the handle.
The bow?s reconstruction turned out to be a real challenge, cause I?ve never dealt with such a complex asymmetrical bow- design. It is made of at least 10 slats of wood, 2 slats of horn were used for to cover the belly- side of the recurves. The working part of the bow is made of 2 wooden slats running through the bow?s length, at the sides of this lamination wooden sidewalls are glued ending where the recurves are beginning.
Another slats are glued to the bow?s handle- section for to make it thick enough and stable.
For those who are much more interested in the construction please have a look at my site: www.redhawk-online.com/news, above all look very closely at the growthrings of the wooden slats and note the perfect asymmetry being part of the whole construction.
The main challenge was to make the sidewalls. Try to bend such small wooden slats without breaking them, you need to have perfectly growthrings running over the whole length. This is a very difficult to find wood, it works only if you use saplings.
The 1000 bucks question is the species of wood, cause only a DNA- analysis would help, but nobody will pay it.
So I have to rely on my experience as a bowyer comparing it with the brushes and small trees growing in the Altai- region, I finally chose blackthorn, hawthorn and juniper, all reliable bow- woods.
After having 2 reconstructions broken, I succeded in making a working but to weak olon kurin gol bow: 22lbs, 25" but with a remarkable speed of about 100f/s. A stronger version is on the way to be finished, we decided to make a sinew- backed and a hornbow- version of this bow too.
The reconstructions of the arrows and the goritos are ready too.
As I?ve still mentioned in another coherence I think the key of this all wood lamination is its asymmetry, I doubt if it would work done in a symmetrically design. So I did some research for myself focused on asymmetrically designs in bowery. I?ll post it soon.
I have to update right now that Adam Karpovicz has made my doubts about the Subeixi bow lapsed.
Michael
Due to the permafrost the excavated man and objects were in a very good condition.
An almost completely conserved goritos, arrows with wooden tips, heavily twisted but still perfectly barreled, feathers have been rottened by time.
The bow turned out to be a bundle of wooden slats, kept together by the fealth cap of the goritos, 2 small pieces of horn laying near the bow.
It was decided to ship all excavated objects to the Institute of the Russian Academy of Science leaded by Dr. Molodyn near the Siberian town of Novosibirsk. In the meanwhile the excavtions are back in Mongolia for to be presented in a museum.
Due to a grant of the "Gerda Henkel grant" the reconstruction of the bow, arrows, goritos, some cloth was made possible. It began with an invitation of the Russian Academy of Science to study the findings at the institute near Novosibirsk. The leader is Prof. Dr. Godehardt, University of Duesseldorf.
The bow measures 121cm over all its curvature in length, max. width is 3cm, max.thickness is 2.8cm at the handle.
The bow?s reconstruction turned out to be a real challenge, cause I?ve never dealt with such a complex asymmetrical bow- design. It is made of at least 10 slats of wood, 2 slats of horn were used for to cover the belly- side of the recurves. The working part of the bow is made of 2 wooden slats running through the bow?s length, at the sides of this lamination wooden sidewalls are glued ending where the recurves are beginning.
Another slats are glued to the bow?s handle- section for to make it thick enough and stable.
For those who are much more interested in the construction please have a look at my site: www.redhawk-online.com/news, above all look very closely at the growthrings of the wooden slats and note the perfect asymmetry being part of the whole construction.
The main challenge was to make the sidewalls. Try to bend such small wooden slats without breaking them, you need to have perfectly growthrings running over the whole length. This is a very difficult to find wood, it works only if you use saplings.
The 1000 bucks question is the species of wood, cause only a DNA- analysis would help, but nobody will pay it.
So I have to rely on my experience as a bowyer comparing it with the brushes and small trees growing in the Altai- region, I finally chose blackthorn, hawthorn and juniper, all reliable bow- woods.
After having 2 reconstructions broken, I succeded in making a working but to weak olon kurin gol bow: 22lbs, 25" but with a remarkable speed of about 100f/s. A stronger version is on the way to be finished, we decided to make a sinew- backed and a hornbow- version of this bow too.
The reconstructions of the arrows and the goritos are ready too.
As I?ve still mentioned in another coherence I think the key of this all wood lamination is its asymmetry, I doubt if it would work done in a symmetrically design. So I did some research for myself focused on asymmetrically designs in bowery. I?ll post it soon.
I have to update right now that Adam Karpovicz has made my doubts about the Subeixi bow lapsed.
Michael
I did try the asymmetrical limbs last year. But did not know how to tiller it :(
What was the problem with the side slats? Did you take straight slats or natural bend?
What was the problem with the side slats? Did you take straight slats or natural bend?
This bow is radically different from the Subexi "Scythian" designs. The streight, rigid bow tips are one major difference.
It is not necessary to use DNA testing to identify the wood species. It is only necessary to prepare a longitudinal section that can be inspected under a high-power optical microscope. There are indeces to cell structure available which allow very accurate identification of species. We can do it here for you with a very small (non bark) wood sample.
S
It is not necessary to use DNA testing to identify the wood species. It is only necessary to prepare a longitudinal section that can be inspected under a high-power optical microscope. There are indeces to cell structure available which allow very accurate identification of species. We can do it here for you with a very small (non bark) wood sample.
S
Redhorse, I?m preparing the "Asymmentrical bow-design"- topic. I?ll post it soon, the tiller is really a problem, but I think I got it with a lot of help of non- bowyers.
The sidewalls were a problem till I checked that you?ve to choose the best grown saplings you are able to find. Natural shape is the best choice, but more or less you?ve to steam- bend them anyway to match the "core" of such a construction exactly.
Stephen, my original reconstruction has much more rigid tips, the whole curvature of the bow has to be more "sharp", but the archaeologists insisted on a very soft curvature. I?m sure that there is a greater amount of energy, if the bow is done with more "reflex-deflex-recurve".
Thank you very much Stephen for your offer to specify the wood, I?ve a very small piece of the wood here at home(0.5x1.5cm), is this enough?
For to be honest, this part of the project makes me angry again, cause I was surrounded by a lot of scientists during the whole researching time and no one would be able to identify the wood. They always told me something about a DNA- analysis would be to expensive.
Michael
The sidewalls were a problem till I checked that you?ve to choose the best grown saplings you are able to find. Natural shape is the best choice, but more or less you?ve to steam- bend them anyway to match the "core" of such a construction exactly.
Stephen, my original reconstruction has much more rigid tips, the whole curvature of the bow has to be more "sharp", but the archaeologists insisted on a very soft curvature. I?m sure that there is a greater amount of energy, if the bow is done with more "reflex-deflex-recurve".
Thank you very much Stephen for your offer to specify the wood, I?ve a very small piece of the wood here at home(0.5x1.5cm), is this enough?
For to be honest, this part of the project makes me angry again, cause I was surrounded by a lot of scientists during the whole researching time and no one would be able to identify the wood. They always told me something about a DNA- analysis would be to expensive.
Michael
Michael; You are a prince for publishing your bow plan. We all know how bent wood will relax again if it is able. i think your olon kurin gol bow has simply unwound as the glue disappeared.
It would be most helpful when we can read the entire report. For instance was the grave in a kurgan and all the other details.
Good for you, what an adventure and an accomplishment. -j-
PS. Don't worry about the scientists. Mostly they do not see the importance in archery. My opinion is that they think we are kids who never grew up. (Well, we are young at heart; we love our toys) But one CANNOT make any kind of a study of an ancient culture without running head into archery artifacts. It is our inspiration and their lack of vision.
My archaeology club recently let me speak on the Silk Road and I decided to introduce them to ancient archery. The Board told me it was the best attended talk in a year and they asked me back. So there to the naysayers. Lets us just do our thing and let them try to catch up. -j-
It would be most helpful when we can read the entire report. For instance was the grave in a kurgan and all the other details.
Good for you, what an adventure and an accomplishment. -j-
PS. Don't worry about the scientists. Mostly they do not see the importance in archery. My opinion is that they think we are kids who never grew up. (Well, we are young at heart; we love our toys) But one CANNOT make any kind of a study of an ancient culture without running head into archery artifacts. It is our inspiration and their lack of vision.
My archaeology club recently let me speak on the Silk Road and I decided to introduce them to ancient archery. The Board told me it was the best attended talk in a year and they asked me back. So there to the naysayers. Lets us just do our thing and let them try to catch up. -j-
A very small specimen of wood would be enough. I need to allow our expert to take a slice along the grain. About 10mm x 5mm will be enough. The better the quality of the wood the better the identification. Detailed data on the location where it was excavated (e.g. GPS co-ordinates) is vital. It would also be useful and make the process easier if you have any data on what species are prevalent in the area where the bow was thought to have originated.
Jack, there is still a problem with publication- rights.
So I advise you to have a look at google for an article called: Impact of the Climate Change in the Altai Mountains published by the UNESCO, written by Junhi Han from the World Heritage Centre.
It describes the environmental conditons of the finding and upcoming problems with the tombs and kurgans very clear.
Due to the permafrost the findings were frozen and so well preserved, the glues were gone, the slats that made the bow were kept together by the hole in the fealth cap of the goritos. Fortunately one of the Russian archaeologists recognized this bundle of slats as the bow and wrapped it in the way I?ve posted it.
In the first drawing which I got from the German Archaeologist Insitute for to prepare my trip to Novosibirsk, it is really difficult to recognize a bow. The fealth cap( the red cloth) is at the upper end of the bow, follow it till the other end and you got the bow. The curves exists more or less, but in the handle some of the slats and plates were broken, due to a bad choice of wood! Why has the bowyer used a slat with a very big knot?
Stephen, I?m carrying together all the infos you need as closely as you?ve asked for them.
Michael
So I advise you to have a look at google for an article called: Impact of the Climate Change in the Altai Mountains published by the UNESCO, written by Junhi Han from the World Heritage Centre.
It describes the environmental conditons of the finding and upcoming problems with the tombs and kurgans very clear.
Due to the permafrost the findings were frozen and so well preserved, the glues were gone, the slats that made the bow were kept together by the hole in the fealth cap of the goritos. Fortunately one of the Russian archaeologists recognized this bundle of slats as the bow and wrapped it in the way I?ve posted it.
In the first drawing which I got from the German Archaeologist Insitute for to prepare my trip to Novosibirsk, it is really difficult to recognize a bow. The fealth cap( the red cloth) is at the upper end of the bow, follow it till the other end and you got the bow. The curves exists more or less, but in the handle some of the slats and plates were broken, due to a bad choice of wood! Why has the bowyer used a slat with a very big knot?
Stephen, I?m carrying together all the infos you need as closely as you?ve asked for them.
Michael
Michael:
"in the handle some of the slats and plates were broken, due to a bad choice of wood! Why has the bowyer used a slat with a very big knot? "
Does this indicate the bow was actually used?
Adam
"in the handle some of the slats and plates were broken, due to a bad choice of wood! Why has the bowyer used a slat with a very big knot? "
Does this indicate the bow was actually used?
Adam
If there is little or no bending in the area of the knot and it was stoutly wrapped, the area would likely hold up.
Was the bow deliberately snapped before burial? Stephen mentions that some of the horn based bows were.
Was the bow deliberately snapped before burial? Stephen mentions that some of the horn based bows were.
Adam, Patrick,
I?m sure now, that this bow was used as a reliable weapon.
After having had 2 reconstructions broken, I was done and almost ready to quit the job.
But I begun again focused on the sidewalls. I did a lot of trials in cutting them, steam- bending them.........till I succeded in making them the way it works( as I mentioned above: take the clearest wood you can find!). To do the best glue- job you are able to is basic too.
I was misleaded by some of these typical "hip- sounding Tim Baker statements" that wooden fibres don?t care too much in which direction they were forced to bend, this is not true ,when you?re dealing with small diameter wood.
I?ve almost finished a 2nd reconstruction, it will turn out to draw 26", about 45lbs, I guess that could be called a useful weapon.
So this kind of bow seems not to performance better(maybe in speed) than a short selfbow, but anyway the question remains, why have the Scythians done it in such an extensive way? But that?s almost a philosophically question.
This is my actual state of mind in this case, I?m sure this design is worth the effort, I?ll try to make a 55-60lbs version of it.
The handle had been heavily wrapped completely, you still see the tracks of a wrapping. I assume that some slats in the handle broke due to that knot, when the wrapping( I guess sinew?) and the glue have dissolved.
Maybe they broke before, cause the whole construction is so sensitive, but were more or less kept together by the handle.
Michael
"If we don?t try to understand history, we?re doomed to repeat it"
(I don?t know, who has made this statement, but it is really true)
I?m sure now, that this bow was used as a reliable weapon.
After having had 2 reconstructions broken, I was done and almost ready to quit the job.
But I begun again focused on the sidewalls. I did a lot of trials in cutting them, steam- bending them.........till I succeded in making them the way it works( as I mentioned above: take the clearest wood you can find!). To do the best glue- job you are able to is basic too.
I was misleaded by some of these typical "hip- sounding Tim Baker statements" that wooden fibres don?t care too much in which direction they were forced to bend, this is not true ,when you?re dealing with small diameter wood.
I?ve almost finished a 2nd reconstruction, it will turn out to draw 26", about 45lbs, I guess that could be called a useful weapon.
So this kind of bow seems not to performance better(maybe in speed) than a short selfbow, but anyway the question remains, why have the Scythians done it in such an extensive way? But that?s almost a philosophically question.
This is my actual state of mind in this case, I?m sure this design is worth the effort, I?ll try to make a 55-60lbs version of it.
The handle had been heavily wrapped completely, you still see the tracks of a wrapping. I assume that some slats in the handle broke due to that knot, when the wrapping( I guess sinew?) and the glue have dissolved.
Maybe they broke before, cause the whole construction is so sensitive, but were more or less kept together by the handle.
Michael
"If we don?t try to understand history, we?re doomed to repeat it"
(I don?t know, who has made this statement, but it is really true)
Michael; It would seem more likely that your bow would represent the core of a finished bow. Maybe the finished model should be sinewed. Or maybe horn and sinew should be added. I do not think a serious bow would contain a large knot. Too much work to build in such jeopardy.
The complexity of the construction would seem to mean something.
Are there tool marks on the wood? Like saw marks, whittling, rasping or grooving marks.
Bede seemed to be saying that a bow like this could be made on the go, as it were. My theory is that they were made in winter in permanent locations. Archaeologists have found large village like fortress compounds in Siberia.
The complexity of the construction would seem to mean something.
Are there tool marks on the wood? Like saw marks, whittling, rasping or grooving marks.
Bede seemed to be saying that a bow like this could be made on the go, as it were. My theory is that they were made in winter in permanent locations. Archaeologists have found large village like fortress compounds in Siberia.
Michael, I was thinking that the sidewalls would be easier to form by taking a perfect sapling and bending it in green form to the desired shape of a limb and then splitting it down the center after it had dried to the shape. That would be easier than trying to wrestle a half round slat into a curve.
I do find the growth ring orientation interesting. Almost like they wanted to put the wood back the way it grows on a tree. Perhaps trying to duplicate the ability of a tree or branch to be flexed and bowed without breaking.
I am skeptical that these were unfinished bows. Some of the smaller shrubby trees of Eurasia are very tough and elastic. Likely even more so in laminated form.
I do find the growth ring orientation interesting. Almost like they wanted to put the wood back the way it grows on a tree. Perhaps trying to duplicate the ability of a tree or branch to be flexed and bowed without breaking.
I am skeptical that these were unfinished bows. Some of the smaller shrubby trees of Eurasia are very tough and elastic. Likely even more so in laminated form.
Redhorse, that bow looks wonderful.Redhorse wrote:
I did try the asymmetrical limbs last year. But did not know how to tiller it :(
Thanks.
I have two two-wood bows still in my shop, but no asymmetrical. I have thought of rasp away from sides and glue on new wood slats on sides just to see how difficult it is and if it gives more cast. Juniper should work for this.
Scythian bow are maybe not better or worse then other all wood bows. But it may be a way to make them horseback short with full draw.
I have two two-wood bows still in my shop, but no asymmetrical. I have thought of rasp away from sides and glue on new wood slats on sides just to see how difficult it is and if it gives more cast. Juniper should work for this.
Scythian bow are maybe not better or worse then other all wood bows. But it may be a way to make them horseback short with full draw.
Redhorse and others who are interested in asymmetrical bow- designs:
I?ve opened a topic: old designs reloaded- asymmetrical bow- designs in the PALEOPLANET primitive bowyers forum, go to www.paleoplanet69529.yuku.com.
Michael
I?ve opened a topic: old designs reloaded- asymmetrical bow- designs in the PALEOPLANET primitive bowyers forum, go to www.paleoplanet69529.yuku.com.
Michael
... interesting, but I like ATARN better
Reto
Reto
I read your thread over there, and actually there's a mechanical explanation for the sharply asymmetrical design of the Japanese yumi here:
http://eclay.netwiz.net/translat/kyudo.htm
It contains a small mistake regarding how the te-no-uchi method of gripping the bow is executed, but otherwise the information is very good (and the theory sounds highly plausible to boot).
http://eclay.netwiz.net/translat/kyudo.htm
It contains a small mistake regarding how the te-no-uchi method of gripping the bow is executed, but otherwise the information is very good (and the theory sounds highly plausible to boot).
Reto, me too, I?m an Atarno.
Just time- management has taught me to post this topic in the PALEOPLANET, cause there was an actual question focused on asymmetry in bow- designs. It is a large topic!
I would propose to those who are interested go to the PALEOPLANET, read my report and we can open a discussion here too.
Michael
Just time- management has taught me to post this topic in the PALEOPLANET, cause there was an actual question focused on asymmetry in bow- designs. It is a large topic!
I would propose to those who are interested go to the PALEOPLANET, read my report and we can open a discussion here too.
Michael
It should have some advantage or they would never use the asymmetrical bow.
About the PP, I think the Atlantic ocean is in between :) they prefer to stay in the Anglo world.
When will you write about the tests?
About the PP, I think the Atlantic ocean is in between :) they prefer to stay in the Anglo world.
When will you write about the tests?
I?ve opened the asymmetrical bow-designs- thread. Go to "making bows, arrows and stuff"!
Michael
Michael
At some point I promised someone that I'd post my field drawings of the Yanghai Scythian-type bows. Now you can get them here:
http://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai/yanghai.htm
http://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai/yanghai.htm
Thats wonderfull !!! Thanks! Not only your drawing Stephen . I dont see to this time, these super surviving bows !
Stephen, thanks a lot............
you?ve sent me these recordings, but without the pics you?ve taken...great...................
Michael
you?ve sent me these recordings, but without the pics you?ve taken...great...................
Michael
Mybe here is good place for some informative ilustration from russian sites . Its from Saka burials in Russian teritory.
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bones from skita bows :1-kurgan2-Volkovcy, 2-kurgan 503 Brovarki, 3 -Romensk , 4-Budki, 5 kurgan 17-Novoaleksejevka (Lazurnce), 6 -kurgan 7 Zdanov, 7- Belskij
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ends part of bow from horn or bones : 1-Temir mountain,2- Zabotin, 3-Serogozi, 5- Komarovskij kurgan,6-Novoaleksandrovka,7-Zivie,8-Podgorodnoe and last is Elb bow for example...
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woods slats vith birch cover in -Tri bratja mogylnik- (3 brothers burial)
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art from old belt- Tlyjskyj mogylnik
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drawings bows in goritos 1-Ternovka,2-Sachnovka,3-omar
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archers in sword case.
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drawing from Olva burial
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/KostenneoblozeniaSkytskychlukov1kurganc.2Volkovci2Ku.3Brovarki3Romenskeudolie4Budky5ku.17NovoaleksejevkaLazurnce6k.7Zdanov7Belskehradistebqg6.jpg){kind=link}
bones from skita bows :1-kurgan2-Volkovcy, 2-kurgan 503 Brovarki, 3 -Romensk , 4-Budki, 5 kurgan 17-Novoaleksejevka (Lazurnce), 6 -kurgan 7 Zdanov, 7- Belskij
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/rohovinoveakostennekoncelukov1Temirhora6abotin3Serogozi4Semenovka5Komarovskamoh.4utm.jpg){kind=link}
ends part of bow from horn or bones : 1-Temir mountain,2- Zabotin, 3-Serogozi, 5- Komarovskij kurgan,6-Novoaleksandrovka,7-Zivie,8-Podgorodnoe and last is Elb bow for example...
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/zbytkylukuzmohylyTrajabratia13drevo4kozay2q8.jpg){kind=link}
woods slats vith birch cover in -Tri bratja mogylnik- (3 brothers burial)
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/obrazoknaopaskuzTlyjskyjMoh.8lbi.jpg){kind=link}
art from old belt- Tlyjskyj mogylnik
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/kresbylukovvgoritach1stelazTernovky2Sachnovka3pliesokzOmar7xyn.jpg){kind=link}
drawings bows in goritos 1-Ternovka,2-Sachnovka,3-omar
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/lukynaoblozeniposvymecakst6.jpg){kind=link}
archers in sword case.
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/kresbazOlvyy2ql.jpg){kind=link}
drawing from Olva burial
The highly curved pieces in the second drawing are actually bridle decorations from horse equipment. The exception is the long bow tip added for comparison. This has led to some drawings being inaccurate as well. At the time the original identification was made, the author may not have had access to the most recent analysis of these pieces.
More and more from Russian findings old hunic burials.
Man vith bow in 3 diferent kurgans:
from Mogylnik Visokoye
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2-Visokoye
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3-visokoye
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Man vith bow in 3 diferent kurgans:
from Mogylnik Visokoye
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/1wqqb.jpg){kind=link}
2-Visokoye
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/2x3xb.gif){kind=link}
3-visokoye
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/3kjwn.gif){kind=link}
Mogylnik Solonci- No.3 bow artifacts
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Mog.2-Monashka-No.1-handle bone plate
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No.2-3 bone plates
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bone details from Monashka vith birch bark
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det. from Monashka
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det. Visokoye
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Visokoye and Tchegerack I
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Solonci and Cayanskij
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/4abrz.gif){kind=link}
Mog.2-Monashka-No.1-handle bone plate
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/6h56k.gif){kind=link}
No.2-3 bone plates
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/76f0e.gif){kind=link}
bone details from Monashka vith birch bark
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/8nrxe.gif){kind=link}
det. from Monashka
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/9h156.gif){kind=link}
det. Visokoye
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/11oaa0.gif){kind=link}
Visokoye and Tchegerack I
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/127qrg.gif){kind=link}
Solonci and Cayanskij
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/13p7gg.gif){kind=link}
Fantastic saka gold goritos . From Tolstoy mogylnik
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Matyugino Mog.(6,7 x 3,5 cm)
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Goritos found in Makedonyja for compare
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detail
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Karagodenashskaya mog.
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details
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compare det.from Karagodenashskaya in Gorit from Makedonia
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gor.from Sorockij
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Tchertomlika
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Iljincov
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Iljinci, Solocki-gorit bottom
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Piatibratnevo (+bottom)
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Melitopolskij kurgan- gorit vith war belt
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other side
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+ bottom
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pektoral cup from Tlstaja mogilnik
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cups vith goritos -Haymannovaya mogilnik-
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/bow042xatc.jpg){kind=link}
Matyugino Mog.(6,7 x 3,5 cm)
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/bow044807e.jpg){kind=link}
Goritos found in Makedonyja for compare
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detail
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Karagodenashskaya mog.
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details
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compare det.from Karagodenashskaya in Gorit from Makedonia
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gor.from Sorockij
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Tchertomlika
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Iljincov
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Iljinci, Solocki-gorit bottom
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Piatibratnevo (+bottom)
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Melitopolskij kurgan- gorit vith war belt
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/bow057lh6i.jpg){kind=link}
other side
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+ bottom
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pektoral cup from Tlstaja mogilnik
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cups vith goritos -Haymannovaya mogilnik-
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next interesting saka findings
Mosul -4 arowheads in one shape
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nort Black sea
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Novotcherkesk
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arrovwheads vith personal marks- Bukrino
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Findins in Jagorlickij.
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This skyths arovwheads vith personal marks are founding in Slovakia- interesting comparison
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but this is king ! Found in Czech rep. Morava region Mstenice
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det.
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Ukraina "detektor fun" findings
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same detektor amateur found in gorit bronz and iron arovwheads glued each other
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+ bone arowheads vith triangular disain
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Mosul -4 arowheads in one shape
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nort Black sea
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Novotcherkesk
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arrovwheads vith personal marks- Bukrino
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Findins in Jagorlickij.
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This skyths arovwheads vith personal marks are founding in Slovakia- interesting comparison
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but this is king ! Found in Czech rep. Morava region Mstenice
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det.
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Ukraina "detektor fun" findings
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same detektor amateur found in gorit bronz and iron arovwheads glued each other
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+ bone arowheads vith triangular disain
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Thanks Dusan, some superb information.
Only4 days later show me mi daughter how i can instal in mi keyvort russian alphabet :lol: I from this time surfing in Russian sites like crazy :roll:
Interesting detail - how skits holding arrows in shooting
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most kurgans looks like this
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open kurgan-Olon Kurin gol-Pazirik cultur
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this skita have tatoo in right hand
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and left hand
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some pieces of Skitas armour
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Russian archeologist thing that skitas have predominantly litle -60 to 80 cm wood or composite ,but not reflex bows. Only nobility mans have , special reflex weapons. From many of opening kurgans was founded about 2000 arrows but only10 bows in pieces . And more of these bows looks like non recurving bows (?).
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most kurgans looks like this
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open kurgan-Olon Kurin gol-Pazirik cultur
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this skita have tatoo in right hand
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and left hand
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some pieces of Skitas armour
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/odesaskitant1344319.jpg){kind=link}
Russian archeologist thing that skitas have predominantly litle -60 to 80 cm wood or composite ,but not reflex bows. Only nobility mans have , special reflex weapons. From many of opening kurgans was founded about 2000 arrows but only10 bows in pieces . And more of these bows looks like non recurving bows (?).
The bas-relief at the top of the collection of photographs is of a Parthian archer, not a Scythian one. I think the original is in a German museum.
Thank you Bede. This pic was like ilustration , about Skitas archery . Wrong destination.
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Back to the skitas goritos
Repjachovatoj mog. gorit vith arrowheads
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Opishljanka and Vitovaja mog. vith gold fragments
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Kelermes and Archangelsk mog.
gold details from goritos
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gold goritos buckle
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Iljicevo gold fragments
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Kelermes goritos gold
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Aksutienci mog. gold detail
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Kelermes glod goritos bottom
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Pastak 1 mog. gorit.gold
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Pastak (like German eagle...)
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Usten quiver
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detail
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details from goritos
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Balik sook belt
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arrow nocks from bone ...1 Darievna, Suvar,Iljicevka,Cerebajevo,jelizavetovskaja,
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skitas sword
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russians idea about skitas bow
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For comparison vith Gleb Polovets sculptures-skitas sculptures
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enjoi... :)
Repjachovatoj mog. gorit vith arrowheads
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Opishljanka and Vitovaja mog. vith gold fragments
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Kelermes and Archangelsk mog.
gold details from goritos
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gold goritos buckle
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Iljicevo gold fragments
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Kelermes goritos gold
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Aksutienci mog. gold detail
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Kelermes glod goritos bottom
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Pastak 1 mog. gorit.gold
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Pastak (like German eagle...)
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Usten quiver
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detail
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details from goritos
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Balik sook belt
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arrow nocks from bone ...1 Darievna, Suvar,Iljicevka,Cerebajevo,jelizavetovskaja,
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skitas sword
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russians idea about skitas bow
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/image0065brh.jpg){kind=link}
For comparison vith Gleb Polovets sculptures-skitas sculptures
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![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/skitskesosky5vts.jpg){kind=link}
enjoi... :)
Redhawk; I came on this and thought you and others would enjoy. I have a question about the Olon Kurin Gol bow. Did you notice any tool marks on the wood? Specifically it would be interesting to know if the wood slats had been split and shaved smooth or if they had been sawed? Any opinion?
Reproduction by N.B. Polsmak. Gorytus bag - Ukock, Altai. 5-3c BCE. Jack
Reproduction by N.B. Polsmak. Gorytus bag - Ukock, Altai. 5-3c BCE. Jack
Thanks Jack, this reconstruction has been made by one of the recontructors in the institute I ?ve been. But he used hide tanned in a nowadays way.
I couldn?t find any marks of a saw on the bow- findings.
If you choose the wood very carefully, it is possible to split the slats.
I?ve done oneof these bows by splitting the woods and than I smoothed them with a knife and sanding- paper.
In the meanwhile I?ve almost finished a stronger version of the olon kurin gol- bow. So I would conclude that the bow is a shootable and useful weapon. But anyway the question remains, why it was done in such a delicious manner?
Michael
I couldn?t find any marks of a saw on the bow- findings.
If you choose the wood very carefully, it is possible to split the slats.
I?ve done oneof these bows by splitting the woods and than I smoothed them with a knife and sanding- paper.
In the meanwhile I?ve almost finished a stronger version of the olon kurin gol- bow. So I would conclude that the bow is a shootable and useful weapon. But anyway the question remains, why it was done in such a delicious manner?
Michael
But all wood arrows (vith wood copies bronz arroeheads ) indicate non worked - simbolic weapon.
You might still need a real bow to shoot magic arrows. There are indications in other cultures that it was not considered a good idea to equip the dead with weapons that could harm the living.
Maybe . This complicated from many pieces slats bow is very interesting.But ,from many russians archeologist founds about 80% bows form kurgans are very litlle(70-100cm) no composed wood bows...
Michael; Weren't most gorytus made of stiff leather? One was found in Samarkand made of ox hide. This would not be soft and supple. Stephen's friend will analyize the wood for you. Why not work on that? If you split wood and scrape smooth there are two types of tool marks.
Dusan, Yes, many grave goods are too small. But why go to all the trouble to make a bow like Olon? And Michael said there were horn nock pieces. Is that correct?
Bede; I have noticed many arrows from graves that should have had points but did not. I feel a new topic coming up. Is there an available reference?
Dusan, Yes, many grave goods are too small. But why go to all the trouble to make a bow like Olon? And Michael said there were horn nock pieces. Is that correct?
Bede; I have noticed many arrows from graves that should have had points but did not. I feel a new topic coming up. Is there an available reference?
Jack, the glue lines are perfectly smooth and fitting, the problem with the tool marks is, that there is no slat as a whole and time has twisted them.
The only marks you could see very clearly are the tracks from the wrappings at the strong curves beside the grip- section.
Some tracks on the slats look like marks done by a knife, but I?m not too sure about that.
The complete belly- side of the recurves is covered with horn- plates, even at the nocks.
I?ve not seen this gorit itself, maybe the reconstructor has not really done it, but as an animation.
I?m not to sure about stiff leather used for the gorit, many goritoi have been made as a wooden frame covered with leather.
The excavated clothes and shoes have definitely been done with soft tanned hides (maybe time has made them soft, I?m not a tanning- expert)
The greatest problem with the project actually is, that the sponsors regard it as finished. Pics are done, the publications will coming out soon.
That?s it! No more interest even in Stephens generous offer.
I?m not satisfied with the results. From my point of view more questions have arised than answers have been found.
After some years of a hype with expositions about the Scythians, I guess the Scythians are just going out of fashion.
But there is the ATARNET with some guys crazy enough for to go on.
Jack, why are you asking for the tool- marks?
My main question is focused on the whole constrution: why such a very hard to do bow? I can?t even imagine that the Scythians bowyers were not able to make more effecient selfbows in a much shorter time?
Michael
The only marks you could see very clearly are the tracks from the wrappings at the strong curves beside the grip- section.
Some tracks on the slats look like marks done by a knife, but I?m not too sure about that.
The complete belly- side of the recurves is covered with horn- plates, even at the nocks.
I?ve not seen this gorit itself, maybe the reconstructor has not really done it, but as an animation.
I?m not to sure about stiff leather used for the gorit, many goritoi have been made as a wooden frame covered with leather.
The excavated clothes and shoes have definitely been done with soft tanned hides (maybe time has made them soft, I?m not a tanning- expert)
The greatest problem with the project actually is, that the sponsors regard it as finished. Pics are done, the publications will coming out soon.
That?s it! No more interest even in Stephens generous offer.
I?m not satisfied with the results. From my point of view more questions have arised than answers have been found.
After some years of a hype with expositions about the Scythians, I guess the Scythians are just going out of fashion.
But there is the ATARNET with some guys crazy enough for to go on.
Jack, why are you asking for the tool- marks?
My main question is focused on the whole constrution: why such a very hard to do bow? I can?t even imagine that the Scythians bowyers were not able to make more effecient selfbows in a much shorter time?
Michael
Hi Michael
Though the sponsorship will be finished for this project I am very much interested in seeing a finished functional Scythian bow after such a long post, discussions and watering our mouths in ATARN/PaleoPlanet (with chrono test as mentioned previously), or does this more depend on sponsorship/money than on craftsmanship? Do we get this information with the publication?
Best regards
Reto
Though the sponsorship will be finished for this project I am very much interested in seeing a finished functional Scythian bow after such a long post, discussions and watering our mouths in ATARN/PaleoPlanet (with chrono test as mentioned previously), or does this more depend on sponsorship/money than on craftsmanship? Do we get this information with the publication?
Best regards
Reto
Reto, why such a cynical reply?
The project is finished, that?s it! You really missed my statement, I go on by myself.
Maybe you?ve missed the chronos too, just open your eyes.
The stronger version will be ready soon, final tillering has to be done, I?ll update the forum.
Michael
The project is finished, that?s it! You really missed my statement, I go on by myself.
Maybe you?ve missed the chronos too, just open your eyes.
The stronger version will be ready soon, final tillering has to be done, I?ll update the forum.
Michael
Reference:
I?m not satisfied with the results. From my point of view more questions have arised than answers have been found.
But there is the ATARNET with some guys crazy enough for to go on
Hi Michael
no cynical reply - the puzzle is not so easy :wink:
I am simply interested in the result as probably many others are.
We are aware some of the bows cracked while making or testing and you continue yourself. But since the project/sponsorship got stopped and the publication,s will be soon, I would like to know whether they include pictures, comments and test,s referring to the broken bows(?) and since you are making another bow that conclusion can not be drawn correctly yet, or exclude the publication,s this part about the Scythian bow-making and refer to nice pictures/fakes and we need to continue in ATARN or other forums? - Got it?
Best regards
Reto
I?m not satisfied with the results. From my point of view more questions have arised than answers have been found.
But there is the ATARNET with some guys crazy enough for to go on
Hi Michael
no cynical reply - the puzzle is not so easy :wink:
I am simply interested in the result as probably many others are.
We are aware some of the bows cracked while making or testing and you continue yourself. But since the project/sponsorship got stopped and the publication,s will be soon, I would like to know whether they include pictures, comments and test,s referring to the broken bows(?) and since you are making another bow that conclusion can not be drawn correctly yet, or exclude the publication,s this part about the Scythian bow-making and refer to nice pictures/fakes and we need to continue in ATARN or other forums? - Got it?
Best regards
Reto
Archaeology is by nature always an incomplete science based upon circumstantial evidence. Archaeology evidence is found by accident. Assumptions are made which change over time. We have chosen this area of interest and we accept these limitations. This is what we have.
Michael. I think that Reto is just expressing frustration at the slow pace of the process but I honor your saying that you do not have all the answers.
We are talking about a craft which existed thousands of years ago. Keep up the good work all.
I have concluded that there is a big difference between a Scythian Kurgan burial and a burial of a common warrior. I always think of the Native Americans and how similar tribes appear to some and how different they were to each other. The Russians dug thousands of Kurgans without finding bows and Stephen witnesses a place where every man is buried with one.
Michael. I think that Reto is just expressing frustration at the slow pace of the process but I honor your saying that you do not have all the answers.
We are talking about a craft which existed thousands of years ago. Keep up the good work all.
I have concluded that there is a big difference between a Scythian Kurgan burial and a burial of a common warrior. I always think of the Native Americans and how similar tribes appear to some and how different they were to each other. The Russians dug thousands of Kurgans without finding bows and Stephen witnesses a place where every man is buried with one.
I finally succeded in making a stronger version of the bow- fnding of olon kurin gol. Getting better with experience.
According to the measurements posted above this reconstruction draws 41lbs at 24", speed is 142f/s, 320grs. arrow, the bow will finally be drawn till 26".
Stronger versions should be no problem now, this bow is a reliable weapon matching the needs of a Scythian hunter or warrior.
According to my knowledge this bow is the first reconstruction of a Scythian bow matching the construction- principles and measurements of Scythian bow- findings.
Some notes: During the past 4 years I?ve done a lot of reconstructions of Scythian, Greek and Parthian bows, reconstructions of Egyptian split-limbs will follow upcoming fall.
This spring I made some selfbows according to nowadays bow- designs principles based on the experiences of Tim Baker, Steve Gardner, Marc St. Louis and others.
These "modern" selfbows perform as well or better as horn- bows. A good bowyer could make a clever designed selfbow of well choosen wood in one day.
My conclusion is now, that hornbows or otherwise somehow delicious made bows of the past are a product of straight organised societies or dictatorships. The selfbow is much more a weapon of "open societies".
I conclude in posting that it is worthless to state that a certain kind of bow is better than another kind of bow. Any ranking of a historical bow could not be done without keeping in mimd its backgrounds(society, military tactics......).
Nowadays we should enjoy the luxurious situation of the world wide web to get a historical overview of almost every kind of bow.
Recently surfing the topics discussed in the ATARNET, I recognized that there is a lot of theory, whereas the number of really crafted bows is falling. I miss pics of bows strung, drawn, chronos................(like Adam, Redhorse, Andrew, Francesco, myself do it.......sorry if I?ve forget someone of you to mention)
We need more infos based on practical experiences here, otherwise we are producing to much hot air.
One could get the impression we are discussing much more some super- ugly plastics fakes than real Asian historical bows. What means ATARN?
Sorry, I can?t post pics of the unstrung and drawn bow, cause I ?ve reached some max. upload size?
Michael
According to the measurements posted above this reconstruction draws 41lbs at 24", speed is 142f/s, 320grs. arrow, the bow will finally be drawn till 26".
Stronger versions should be no problem now, this bow is a reliable weapon matching the needs of a Scythian hunter or warrior.
According to my knowledge this bow is the first reconstruction of a Scythian bow matching the construction- principles and measurements of Scythian bow- findings.
Some notes: During the past 4 years I?ve done a lot of reconstructions of Scythian, Greek and Parthian bows, reconstructions of Egyptian split-limbs will follow upcoming fall.
This spring I made some selfbows according to nowadays bow- designs principles based on the experiences of Tim Baker, Steve Gardner, Marc St. Louis and others.
These "modern" selfbows perform as well or better as horn- bows. A good bowyer could make a clever designed selfbow of well choosen wood in one day.
My conclusion is now, that hornbows or otherwise somehow delicious made bows of the past are a product of straight organised societies or dictatorships. The selfbow is much more a weapon of "open societies".
I conclude in posting that it is worthless to state that a certain kind of bow is better than another kind of bow. Any ranking of a historical bow could not be done without keeping in mimd its backgrounds(society, military tactics......).
Nowadays we should enjoy the luxurious situation of the world wide web to get a historical overview of almost every kind of bow.
Recently surfing the topics discussed in the ATARNET, I recognized that there is a lot of theory, whereas the number of really crafted bows is falling. I miss pics of bows strung, drawn, chronos................(like Adam, Redhorse, Andrew, Francesco, myself do it.......sorry if I?ve forget someone of you to mention)
We need more infos based on practical experiences here, otherwise we are producing to much hot air.
One could get the impression we are discussing much more some super- ugly plastics fakes than real Asian historical bows. What means ATARN?
Sorry, I can?t post pics of the unstrung and drawn bow, cause I ?ve reached some max. upload size?
Michael
More pics?
Stephen, what?s to do?
Michael
Stephen, what?s to do?
Michael
For same problems i use free image hosting. Use him too. Your bow looks interesting. You glued piesces of wood and horn like original or glued like modern flatbow vith triangular shape layer ?(modern glue or natural glue ?)
Dusan, thanks for the hint about image hosting, I guess you mean photobucket I?ll do it as soon as possible.
This is not a hornbow, it is an all- wood lamination. Only the belly- side of the recurves are covered with horn-plates.
For complete details look at: www.redhawk-online.com/news
I would never do any bow with modern glues, the laminations are glued with fish- glue.
Michael
This is not a hornbow, it is an all- wood lamination. Only the belly- side of the recurves are covered with horn-plates.
For complete details look at: www.redhawk-online.com/news
I would never do any bow with modern glues, the laminations are glued with fish- glue.
Michael
I mean - you glued flat wood strips (like modern bows, or more thiny strips - like is visible in that old bow. I wil go to your site...
Well i understand. You working vith your plan . 2 wood strips + sidewals. 4 wood strips in handle. How wood you use? Birch + ?
Dusan, I make this reconstruction with juniper and mountain- maple.
Original wood is still not analyzed.
Michael[/url]
Original wood is still not analyzed.
Michael[/url]
Yes, good choice. What you thing about birch ? Most siberian and mongol area bows are from birch. Now i work in two bows from birch, but litlle afraid if our central European birch wood is the same quality , like siberian ... Or better says todays wood like many of wood specialist mean- is not same quality, like 1000 yars oldest woods :cry:
Thanks ATARNO for making more pics possible.
Here is the bow unstrung, drawn (25") and a detail of the limb, see the sidewalls..............
Dusan, I guess birch could not withstand the tension and compression strength?of such a short bow. But I admit not to know all the very different species of Siberian birch.
By the way: for all of you are doing reconstructions, please post your bows unstrung, strung and drawn. Chronos would also be very helpful.
Michael
Here is the bow unstrung, drawn (25") and a detail of the limb, see the sidewalls..............
Dusan, I guess birch could not withstand the tension and compression strength?of such a short bow. But I admit not to know all the very different species of Siberian birch.
By the way: for all of you are doing reconstructions, please post your bows unstrung, strung and drawn. Chronos would also be very helpful.
Michael
....the recurve with horn- covered belly including groove for the string
Michael
Michael
Hi Michael
I impressed. Good to see finally an excellent replica of a Scyhtian bow. From a design point of view I still like the bow from Novotny, but now we all know it is a very nice hybrid, not to call it fake.
Following questions popped up: How about the finish and decoration. Based on the findings was their any evidence the bows were also highly decorated, first covered with leather or birch bark? Since the bodies of the people had many tattoo's were there any natural pigments visible?
When does the publication gets published, what's the name of the book and are their also some pictures and conclusion drawn about the making of the bow? If yes, who made the reconstruction of the bows?
Thanks a lot for your answers.
Reto
Thanks ATARNO for making more pics possible.
Here is the bow unstrung, drawn (25") and a detail of the limb, see the sidewalls..............
Dusan, I guess birch could not withstand the tension and compression strength?of such a short bow. But I admit not to know all the very different species of Siberian birch.
By the way: for all of you are doing reconstructions, please post your bows unstrung, strung and drawn. Chronos would also be very helpful.
Michael
I impressed. Good to see finally an excellent replica of a Scyhtian bow. From a design point of view I still like the bow from Novotny, but now we all know it is a very nice hybrid, not to call it fake.
Following questions popped up: How about the finish and decoration. Based on the findings was their any evidence the bows were also highly decorated, first covered with leather or birch bark? Since the bodies of the people had many tattoo's were there any natural pigments visible?
When does the publication gets published, what's the name of the book and are their also some pictures and conclusion drawn about the making of the bow? If yes, who made the reconstruction of the bows?
Thanks a lot for your answers.
Reto
Thanks ATARNO for making more pics possible.
Here is the bow unstrung, drawn (25") and a detail of the limb, see the sidewalls..............
Dusan, I guess birch could not withstand the tension and compression strength?of such a short bow. But I admit not to know all the very different species of Siberian birch.
By the way: for all of you are doing reconstructions, please post your bows unstrung, strung and drawn. Chronos would also be very helpful.
Michael
Thanks Reto,
Novottny should not call his bow a Scythian bow.........that?s all
Only evidence of birch- bark, maybe I?ll have to cover the bow with birch- bark when the final tests are done. There are tracks of pigments in the kurgan, but I don?t think that such a bow was heavily decorated or adorned.
There will be a publication of the German Archaeological Institute, I don?t know the deadline, I?ll update you.
Michael
Novottny should not call his bow a Scythian bow.........that?s all
Only evidence of birch- bark, maybe I?ll have to cover the bow with birch- bark when the final tests are done. There are tracks of pigments in the kurgan, but I don?t think that such a bow was heavily decorated or adorned.
There will be a publication of the German Archaeological Institute, I don?t know the deadline, I?ll update you.
Michael
Well , if mi bows was about year in good condition(and dont broke or so...) i of course show pics. Birch is one of another woods in this mi project . I think too that Saka bows was color decorated, but - no evidence about it.