Korean Test

if the short arrow is barreled or rattailed one , danger is skyrocketing ...

If done carefully, using proper equipment, it is fairly safe. I've shot them many times and I know a few others here (like Bede) have too.

well ... my t'ong-ah had a wide channel ... wider that the diameter of the p'yon-jon 's point ... so the point of the p'yon-jon may slip outside the t'ong-ah . I do not had any problem with cylindrical p'yon-jon (parallel ?) but with barreled or rattailed ones , sometimes , at full draw , I heared a small noise . At cheking (I dind't release the arrow !) , the point of the p'yon-jon was outside the t'ong-ah 's channel . The noise was generated by the friction between point of the arrow and the t'ong-ah walls . The pressure with my index right finger was too much . The very short p'yon-jon , the big slope of the curvature of the arrow's profile , the wrong way of trimming the end of the t'ong-ah , the channel not deep enough ... led to that .
I made adjustment to the t'ong-ah , to get rid of that effect , wich I succeed , but I wikened it too badly . It started to flex .
I do not militate against use of arrow guide , but is not a matter someome can take lightly . It is not for people in a hurry . It require study , testing and learning . And care . If I managed to do it watching clips on youtube and reading tips on atarn , everybody can . Bamboo (for t'ong-ah) is still hard to find here , but someday , I'll shoot p'yon-jons again .

If the arrow guide flexes, throw it away. That is the most dangerous state for it to be in. It can injure you or project an arrow at an unexpected angle and hurt the spectators.

There is another type of guide for shooting rattailed or barreled darts. This is the type I use for flight archery. Instead of tapering to the drawing hand end, it has a hollowed portion that holds the nock slightly off the base of the guide. This causes the arrow to point slightly into the groove. On shooting the arrow leaves still in contact with the base (side) of the groove.

However, the Middle Eastern books all say the guide arrows should be parallel sided except where the feathers are attached. This should be tapered and swell out again at the nock.

the rattailed ones go further . featherless ones go further .
I do not throw it away . I keep it for historical reasons . It is possible to be the first arrow guide in my country . :D
I don't understand exactly the "hollowed portion" part , but the same effect is obtained by not tapering the draw hand 's end at all , and positioning the end of the guide slightly behind the string . isn't it ?
I wikened the guide making the channel (groove) deeper and deeper . Much deeper the channel , much worst the arrow travell (not straight) . Eventually I stopped using it .

ps : the best grip was (for me) with guide string around my draw hand middle finger . in this way , even with some pressure of index finger on the arrow , the guide remain "glued" on the bow string . it worked best , for me .

What do you think it's easier and safer to use, an arrow guide or a siper?

Neither are particularly safe, but you can see what is happening with the siper. On the other hand, the most dangerous event I have had is when an arrow broke in the siper as I released.

The siper is more technically difficult to use unless you use the navak-i kabze type which ties to the bow. Even though there is no tabla for extra protection of the hand, the wider trough makes for a more controllable device. The fact that the side of the navak-i kabze is tied to the bow grip eliminates the problem of shooting an arrow into the belly of your bow, which can happen if an ordinary siper moves towards the bow during the draw.

I have had no accidents with a majra for many years now, but I always check the position of the point in the groove before I draw. If I can during the draw, I do it then too.

The worst that happend to me was when t'ong-ah was hit by the string and vibrated above my left hand . And another one with one particular dart that around (and behind) the point had epoxy resin with rough surface . Guide vibrated on my left hand , was a painfull experience . I didn't know that vibrations can deliver such pain . Sometimes I checked position of the point in the groove even at full draw by slipping the head between bow and string and taking a pick . This is not a easy thing to do , because my bow is pretty strong .
Jose , in the clip you posted is a korean guy with a poney tail ... I watch him shoot short arrows in slow motion maybe dozens of time ... basically , I learned from him .
I'am not a scared guy type , but the first times I shooted , my heart is beating like a jungle drum ...

Bede, I appreciate sharing your experience with us. Could you post a picture of the navak-i kabze, please? I never saw an overdraw tied to a Turkish bow before.

I had pictures on this site some years ago, but I don't know where they are. I will make some new ones this week.

I shot these mini arrows the last couple times I went to Korea. We used a guide that was a piece of bamboo cut in half (long-ways), with a loop attached to the end that we either slipped over our wrists, or fingers. The draw side of the guide was tapered, and when we drew back, it came past the string a bit.

I have never had any problems with vibration or pain. But I did find it difficult at first to balance the guide, and keep the arrow in it, with just my draw hand index finger (I shoot with the thumb draw); it was much heavier than an arrow. I think one of the reasons it was so smooth when I shot the mini arrows is that the fletchings were a very soft pheasant feather; it came out of the guide so smoothly it was like a bullet. Also, anyone that I have seen try to shoot the mini arrows with a three finger draw had a lot more trouble...

My only real complaint was that it shot so far to the right haha.

Katie,
If it shot further to the right than your normal arrows, I wonder if the guide was flexing. When I make wooden guides, I make the side next to the bow thicker to make it stiff. I also follow Arab Archery's advice and make the outside next to the bow flat to prevent turning. Unfortunately, you cannot do this with bamboo guides.

Normally if I aim straight down the guide, the dart follows that path to the target.

Thanks Bede :) I will keep that in mind if I ever make one, that is a very good idea. I think one of the main reasons it was going to the right, was that I just wasn't compensating as much as I should have with the guide on there. I am pretty sure it wasn't flexing, I was just not used to having that extra width between my bow and the arrow.

Thanks for your input!

make the outside next to the bow flat to prevent turning

Bede, can you detail this?

Ginni,
This is a rough drawing. The whole cross section would be an octagon.

The hole is rectangular?
This is very interesting, I guess this rectangular hole allow arrows with rectangular points (cross section, for armour piercing).
What type of wood will be good to make a majra?

Ginni,
I have made them from cherry and plain pine. The wood has to be straight and not whippy.

Rounded slots or square ones work. A round arrow in a square slot usually only has two points of contact which reduces drag. A round slot with a diameter greater than the arrow might have a single point of contact making it faster still.

Thank you Bede!
Very useful information.
I have seen some pine profiles, I think I can glue them to make some kind of laminated majra. Hope it will be stiff enough.
Bamboo is almost impossible to find here, so I cannot make a korean tong-ah.

hello bede ,
i?ve seen your video on youtube about the maja ,now you are refering a little about the cross -section but i would like some further information ,could you please give more information about shape and length
thank you
ralf