arrows going to the right with the thumb draw technique

It is hard to tell from the video. Your form is good. The right elbow may be a bit high sometimes but that would not contribute.

If you are getting groups to the right, then there are a few possibilities. You may be aiming with the left edge of the bow, which can cause a stiff arrow to go right. It does not look like you are leaning your head over the arrow, but that can deflect the nock of the arrow to the left of your line of sight and cause a rightwards deflection.

There is a test you can do. Cant the upper limb of the bow to the right and aim over the "V" formed by the left edge of the bow and you left index finger knuckle. Try this first edge onto the target and then modify your stance by facing the target more squarely until your arrows start landing to the left.

The old books often talk about the different stances needed for different shaped bodies. This is a way of testing that.

I am assuming you are accurate in knowing how much pressure your index finger is putting on the nock. You can rotate the wrist of the drawing hand to move the index finger away from the nock. However, you risk hitting the tip of the indexfinger with the string if you go to far.

Only try one thing at a time. You might find just doing something different will change where the arrows land even if it doesn't seem logical at the time.

Itś normal. I have the same problem using mediterran style.
The first mistake may be pressure of your index finger to the arrow (arrow is bended to the bow), the second may be too hard arrow. Using thumb release,spin of arrow isńt as important as in European archery , but for short distances itś better to use correct spin and large flething. Try to take down spin on the one arrow with sandpaper (I?m using drillmachine and arrow is fixed by arrowpoint) between center and fletching, or havier arrowpoint.
Second way is to try release without any contact with nock

Thank you gentlemen

Bede,
I will do the tests as soon as I get some time to practise and I will try to keep my right elbow lower now.
Thanks again, every piece of advice counts.

I need to carefully read the technique chapters in ?Saracen Archery?.

M??a,
I use the same arrows which I normally use with the three finger loose (so far). They are 28?long, were spined roughly the same as the bow (50-55#) and are a bit tapered so I don?t think they are too stiff. I have shoot lower spined arrows with the same effect too. But I will consider your tip as I know the correct arrow spine can be a very "personal" thing and general guides don't always apply.

I hope you have solved your problem with the Mediterranean loose?
I suppose your arrows were not landing as far to the right as mine (30-40cm 8) ).

Have you tried standing 20 metres from the target and shooting into the ground 5 meters ahead of you (half draw.) Then 'walk' the arrow towards the target shooting one metre forward each time until you hit the target. Don't try to aim: just look at the point that you intend to shoot at. See if that helps.

i'm not know why here a lots west members use thumbring draw and in china lots archers use three fingers, a reverse world it is ,many greet advice but differ, i can believe it is perfect

sorry stephen, i can know each word you post but i still can not know what your right mean


Have you tried standing 20 metres from the target and shooting into the ground 5 meters ahead of you (half draw.)

靶子在20米外，半开弓射前方5米处的地面
Then 'walk' the arrow towards the target shooting one metre forward each time until you hit the target.

然后每隔一米逐次射直至中靶

Don't try to aim: just look at the point that you intend to shoot at. See if that helps
不要用瞄准的方法，只是看直线的指向

a so bad translate?i can not know,thanks

Hi Ashbow,

the same problem exists in KYUDO. My teacher in Tsukuba (Japan) tested Yumis (japanese bows) with a shooting machine. At a distance from 28m the arrow landed 1,5m right to the target. It makes the width of the bow, the string tendences to go to the bow-mid and the arrow gets an angle to the right, during stretching of the bow in release. So we keep the bowhandjoint straight, push our thumbroot towards the target and pull the part of the palm, where the little finger is, the other direction. So you twist the bow in full draw and in release this is speeded up as strong as possible.
Too you can ask somebody to aim you in, by looking over your arrow from behind in full draw and corrects you to left or right, until your arrow points straight into the target.
I hope this helps a bit.

Peter

Mr Selby,

Do you say to shoot instinctively?
Get feel for how bow behaves and then try shooting?

I find it difficult to try to hit something if I aim, so that is what I do.
However, this only works until you change your arrow set, then you need 'relearn' the bows behavior but it gets easier with experience...
(Unless your arrow are well matched as ones before)

If you shoot a bow enough, you should be able build memory in brain and then it should become second nature thing, like throwing a stone or ball.
Do you aim when you throw a stone at something??

I had the same problem when I tried thumb ring shooting the first time. A friend told me to cant the bow to the right side (upper limb). It works for me... If it doesn?t help, turn the bow even more to the right.

JJ

Stephen,
I started my practice as you have advised shooting at the ground ahead of me, later at the close target using only half of the draw length (arrows were landing to the right from the beginning) but maybe I have started with the full draw over hastily. I shall try it one more time.

Stephen Selby wrote;

Then 'walk' the arrow towards the target shooting one metre forward each time until you hit the target.

When I ?walk? arrows closer toward the target boss shall I still using only half the draw or should I draw the bow more fully?

Jiao,
Yes, that?s quite interesting how tastes and habits change with the time.
Incidentally the Poland (where I come form) is an European country, where the thumb draw had quite strong traditions, especially during (circa) XVI and XVII cent. when the composite horn bow of Turkish and Tatar design was one of the main Polish weapon, as an aside because of the adopting from the East the pattern of the light cavalryman using a composite bow this led to the fact that Poland was one of the latest European country to abandon the use of the bow as a weapon of war; into the XVIII cent. noblemen were still carrying quivers as an element of the costume and women were even wearing arrows in they hair like a piece of jewellery.

Peter,
I shall try to experiment with different pressure on the handle.
I?m curious, can you tell me is it always the case to twist the Yumi as you described? I think I have read there are some schools teaching to twist Yumi during the full draw more and those that teach to don?t ( supposedly excessive twisting it?s not so ?healthy? for the bow). Can you tell me if I recall it right or did I make it up?

I have checked a couple of times during the full draw if my arrows are in line with the mark by leaning the head over the arrow for a second and then retreated again. I will have to ask someone for assistance.

JJ,
I will follow your and Bede?s advice about canting the bow definitely, your success is my hope :D .

And that?s why ATARN is so wonderful,
thank you all again.

My comment about half draw was just to stop you letting off too powerful a shot when you are shooting at the ground or you are near the target. If you can draw fully and not damage your arrows, then go for it.

Yes, this is training for instinctive shooting.

The comments about pressure on the bow are a useful idea. With a Middle Eastern as opposed to Korean grasp of the bow, you push forward with the area between the base of the thumb and base of the index finger and squeeze tightly with the middle, ring and little fingers. This was mentioned earlier. The pressure, like the clenching of the draw hand is related to the strength of the bow. You squeeze harder if the bow is strong.

It was also said that when you change from the Mediterranean to the thumb style of shooting, you notice arrows going to the right. It works both ways. If you are used to shooting with a thumb ring and change to three fingered shooting, the arrows go to the left considerably.

I am assuming that the problem is not this normal readjustment, but even it will be overcome by trying the variations of style we have been suggesting.

Good luck.

Stand 20 metres from the target and shoot into the ground 5 meters ahead of you (half draw.)
靶子约在20米外，先半开弓射前方5米的地面
Then 'walk' the arrow towards the target shooting one metre forward each time until you hit the target.
然后每隔一米逐次射截至中靶
Don't try to aim: just look at the point that you intend to shoot at. See if that helps
不用瞄准，只要直望所射的地点。
[/quote]

是对的。 谢谢您！

Ashbow, it?s very interesting to hear about the bow in Poland until 18th century as a military weapon. I?d like to know more about that. Where can I find more detailed information (unfortunately I can?t read polish)?

JJ

JJ,
Unfortunately I don?t know if there are some more detailed works concerning archery in Poland written in languages other than Polish. There are as well very few books concerning the subject in Polish, even those existing are not very satisfying works and you need to be able to select the correct information when reading them.

If you would like to read some general overview try to get the Journal of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, volume 44. 2001 and read the article ?The bow in Poland? by Andrzej Abratowski (he is already a member of the forum). There you would find a short bibliography on the subject as well (unfortunately mainly Polish works).

Maybe you would be able to source some texts concerning some military conflicts in Poland of the period.
I hope maybe Bede or someone else could quote you some different sources in other languages.

If you have some specific questions just ask, hope there will be answer for it.

Hi Ashbow,

there are two different technics. One is horseback-shooting (no twist) shomen-style (lifting the bow in front of the body) and the other is for battlefield by feed (lifting the bow sidewise and twisting the bow).
The Yumi has a so called Iriki, that means the bow itself has a twist so that the string goes about 2-3 cm over the right gripside. For a Yumi twisting is "healthy", because of that twisting the string does a curve at release and the bow turns around 360? in the bowhand. The effect is the arrow goes the direction you aim.

I will soon post a picture of this Iriki, so you can understand what I mean.

Peter

Hi Peter,
I?m familiar with the Iriki term. A picture of the correct Iriki-Yumi would be nice (how far the string should be off-set to the right).

I found the passage I was thinking of when referring to the two different ?twisting? approach;

"Inagaki Sensei reminded us: "Nowadays in Japan, 90% of the masters disagree with me and they teach not to twist at Hanare. It is true that you may deform the bow if you twist too early: the torsion must begin after Uchi okoshi. However, the big difference between the Heki Ryu and the other schools is to KEEP TWISTING during Nobi ai until Hanare."

The quote is from the ?The art of shooting the traditional Japanese bow
according to the HEKI INSAI HA SCHOOL?
Full text here:
http://www.shuitsukankyudojo.de/texte/manual.pdf
(look for the page 18 )

I'm interested what do you think about the above statement (the quote)?

Hi Ashbow,

Inagaki Sensei was my teacher. He visited Europe every year and held Seminars in Austria, Finnland, Germany and Italy.

On the picture below you can see the Iriki.

Peter

Hello Peter.
I remember your nice yumi. Now I have a doubt: There are 3 forms or shapes. 1 is desirable, the other 2 need to be corrected with shaping blocks. The yumi should be slightly centered to the right but not farter than the side of yumi, this is iriki, the right way. Deki is the opposite, string at left, which is the worst condtion and needs correction. The other form is extrem iriki, where the string is located too far to the right and also needs to be corrected. Now I don?t know if it?s the picture angle or not, but your string seems to be too far to the right (extreme iriki). Maybe when you situate the yumi looking at the grip, the effect is correct. Is that a visual effect or not?

Hi Jos?,

the foto i did, is to try holding the bow the grip stands parallel to the ground; can be that the sight is not correct. On the other side i made the experience, each bowmaker has his own "perfect" Iriki. Some prefer more, some less. Even the length of the bow is important: as longer the bow, as less the Iriki. The image i posted is a Ni-Sun-Nobi (ntn 227cm). In the attachement, here, you see my practice bow, its a Yon-Sun-Nobi (ntn 233cm). You too can see, my practice bow has a more "compensated" form.
When i brace my practice bow, i massage it cold. I shoot this bow more than 6 years and it keeps his form totally.
On the other side, if the bow is, in case of really out of form, heated up and bend to the correct shape. But, this has to be done by an experienced....

By the way, a "perfect" measurement for a "perfect Iriki" is when the string cross on the right side the second knot in the upper part and in the last knot on the lower part of the belly side. So you see my Yumi is not perfect, but it shoots wonderful.
For Iriki the string HAS to LEAVE the bow on the right side.

Sorry Ashbow, this is not the discussion you started.

Peter

A question related with this yumi tillering: a korean hornbow tillering is like iriki, with the limbs slightly curved aside, or the limbs are straight, paralel with the string and only the siyah tips are pointed to one side of the bow?

Peter, thank you for the detailed explanation. I knew you were going to have more information. I have a yumi that often goes into a extreme iriki, so from time to time I need to use the shaping block.

Peter,
No need to sorry, that's me that should rather thank you. Actually thanks to that discussion we can learn some new useful things.
Thank you very much for making clear how the correct Iriki should actually look like, I'm surprised though because I was thinking like Jos? that the string shouldn't leave the right bow-edge, now I just learned another precious thing.

Kyudohund wrote:

Inagaki Sensei was my teacher.

You never know what you are going to find out :) .

thanks for stpphen

i try half draw shooting yesterday, a very lovely game, not walk arrows, i try lots way got a stable pose for the half draw but failing,so i am not care any pose and draw length ，Ishoot it as a hosepipe bow (two hosepipe shoot the pebble)

the target is a water bottle in 20m, i am hit a lots by not arming, i am never got this accurate shooting ,use the feeling of push the bow aiming and the pressure on draw hand know draw length ,it can done in 3 hours ,quite fast got the ahead, but sometime i not know where wrong the feeling lose,so i shoot a lots at last i stop it cause my two hand has many blood blister

what a good game!try it !

Ginni, you are right. I hawe same experiences vith Korean hornbow.

An update;

Dear all, during last few months during those few practice sessions I tried all the advice you have generously given, there was not much improvement though there were a couple of times when the arrow flew true and not to the right of the target.
After some time I slightly injured my drawing shoulder, I wouldn?t ever think that a slight change in the position of the drawing hand (i.e. as opposite to the three finger loose) would cause such an injury but I strongly suppose that was the case. Anyway after some time my shoulder healed and now it bears the thumb draw without any problem. Well, I suppose I should start with lighter bow or make more exercises. Anyone had similar experience?

Last week I was to Czech Republic and I was fortunate to have this rare opportunity of having first hand coaching from experienced Turkish traditional archers. I have learned a lot of very precious things one rather can?t get from reading.
This quick session worked like magic, the ?right of the target? problem became less frequent now and I?m able to see what faults I?m still making.
Now I think my main fault was the release and the drawing hand itself.
I won?t try to describe all I was taught because there is much of it. The aspects I learned that had the greatest impact on solving my problem were; forming the correct lock with the drawing hand (again a lot of details), position of the drawing hand and arm and finally the loose itself - earlier I have tried without any success first to let go the forefinger and then the thumb (I was told it?s rather a presumption.) ? instead I was taught to make the loose something like if pretending to flip the coin with the forefinger and thumb, but again without tensing the forefinger and it worked very well.

Now I would like to thank all the Turkish team that was present for all the help. I?m especially grateful to Murat for his demonstrations and advices and to ?zg?r for teaching me, pointing out the faults, lending the bow and a fine and well fitting Turkish thumb ring. Also thanks to Buket for using the Mongolian bow, G?kmen for the mounted archery tips and to Mert and all others for the time spent together, tasty dinner, Turkish coffee and having an opportunity to have a glimpse of the wonderful Turkish culture.

Apologize for an awful lengthy post.

Franciszek

Dear Fransizcek,

Your welcome. It was our pleasure.

I haven't been around for a while, so Paul sent me an e-mail to let me know about this discussion.

Here is the answer I gave to Paul:

quote

What I am going to tell you is just my analysis from all I read and experienced on field. However, I never taught anyone anything until I'm quite sure it's the correct way. Still, there is no direct explanation in old treatises about how to clear the arrow except the description of the follow thru, which is unfortunately not too clear. But I think it's the grasping the grip that makes the difference. In the Turkish style the connection of palm and the fingers of the bowhand should be put onto the midline of the back, called "metn" in Arabic. Both the Mamluk and Ottoman scripts describe the same holding method.

If you hold the bow that way it's prone to twist during the shot naturally without any conscious effort. If you combine that with back tension, the bowhand jumps outside with a very slight twisting on the wrist. That's why I find it necessary to practise kepaze with a proper grip so that the trainee learns the proper holding method and acquire the necessary muscle memory.

String slap on the forearm and the arrow flight seem to be related to the follow through of the string hand as well. It should kick backwards without getting away from the face (different than what Kyuodokas do).

Additional to these, Turkish composite bows might have had a slight distortion. Old treatises mention that archers could choose the way they use the bow, i.e. the upper or lower limb may have changed from time to time due to the instability of composite structure in general. But we're using synthetic material replicas with perfectly aligned limbs and we still have good arrow flight.

Another factor may be the spine which has not been considered too much by ancient archers. But I saw in an old text that a bowyer recommended the archer to shoot a little bit to right with a particular arrow. I'm pretty sure that they were aware of the spine even if they were not able to make fine adjustments based on this parametre.

unquote

Thanks for posting you reply here, Murat. Much appreciated!

You mentioned to practice "kepaze". I read under the Training-section at www.turkisharchery.info that kepaze was a special bow for beginning archers working on correct drawing form. It also said that they did this with the mediterranean finger setting on the string (no mentioning of the thumb grip).

Do you also advice your students to practice kepaze with a three finger draw or do you encourage the thumb grip as well? Or does it depend entirely on the level of the student in question?

Thanks,
Paul

I think I know what your problem is.

I read a mongolian woman describe her shooting method and figured out the source of this problem, ...at least for me.

When shooting on the right side of the bow handle with a right hand thumb draw, the arrow naturally shoots far to the right if you sight down the arrow. I don't know why, but it is not a shooting form problem but rather a problem with aiming method.

The solution is to aim with the left eye sighting on the left side of the handle. I started placing the view of the target right on top of the left side of my bow hand, on the left side of the handle. Bingo! the arrow started flying dead ahead, no more shooting to the far right.

In other words you do not sight down the arrow with the right eye.

I also tried focusing both eyes on the target until the bow handle blurs out of sight, but again the arrow started spraying to the right.

Hello to you all, please forgive me for not answering before.
Thank you for all the tips, every one is much appreciated.

I studied all the pictures and videos of archers using the thumb draw available many times, reading, taking advice from others and working on different aspects of the technique. It was a lot of work and I was really about to quit sometimes.
Though I shoot very rarely now it seems that the above problem disappeared completely. I was really trying to find what actually causes the deflection in the arrow flight but unfortunately it isn't that easy. The problem just ceased along the way.
So there isn't any clear conclusion from me, I can just share my observations. Firstly I need to stress that I probably wouldn't go far not all the advice I got from experienced thumb draw archers, it's important because I could tell if my overall techinque is correct.
It seems to me that the problem may be linked to switching to the different technique than one has been using so far, after some time I found out that the arrows were flying to the left, as if they were too stiff in spine, when I was trying to shoot with the mediterranean technique again, I knew of course that the arrows were not too stiff, as I had been using them before I had tried the thumb draw. Similar problem may occur when one is switching his hands, my friend experimented with shotting left handed, because of his left-dominant eye and at first his arrows were also behaving as too stiff. My experience here is that, of course, the stiffness of the arrow isn't the main cause of that dramtic deflection to the side in flight.
The problem is cured with enough practice, it sems that the 'muscle memory' is an imprtant issue here.
Now I can shoot using the mediterranean and the thumb draw in one session without having this kind of problems with defletcion in the arrow flight.

Dear Hermitking, thank you for your imput, unfortunately I can't say for sure if it was only the aiming that was causing my problem, it's hard to say, I still believe that it was a more complex problem for me, I'll check your advice out.

Dear Paul and Murat, thanks for involving.
I'm not sure if what I'm doing now with my bow hand is like kepaze but definitely the bow is twisting a bit after the release and I think I work with the back muscles in a way that makes the bow arm and hand jump aside during the release as well, at least the bow arm and the bow moves and probably the arrow can clear the bow better. In comparision, when shooting with the mediterranean release you want to keep your bow arm and hand as still as possible during the release, any sideways movement of the bow is not desierable here. But I'm not quite sure this sideways bowarm or just hand movement with the thumdraw is practiced everywhere though, is it? Does the Korean style involve any bow hand movement like that, at least I'm not aware of any?

Hi. I had same experience. With thumb arrow goes to the right and when back to the 3 finger it goes to the left. i hope it will disappear in my case also.

Hi MupKo, I hope you will get your shooting problems cured.

I don't know whether what I'm doing is really correct, but when I'm shooting with the thumb draw I try to work with my back muscles and the grip on the bowhandle in a way that makes the bowarm and the bow jump slightly aside during the release, thus perhaps allowing the arrow to clear the bow better, as I wrote in the above post.
When I'm shooting the three finger way I try to keep my bow arm still but also try to keep pulling with the back muscles while at anchor.
So it's a bit like the thumb draw calls for a more 'dynamic' form for me.
Edit: I also should state that the drawing motion itself is different for the both techniques, as the muscles are working in a different way.

Ashbow wrote:

Hi MupKo, I hope you will get your shooting problems cured.

I don't know whether what I'm doing is really correct, but when I'm shooting with the thumb draw I try to work with my back muscles and the grip on the bowhandle in a way that makes the bowarm and the bow jump slightly aside during the release, thus perhaps allowing the arrow to clear the bow better, as I wrote in the above post.
When I'm shooting the three finger way I try to keep my bow arm still but also try to keep pulling with the back muscles while at anchor.
So it's a bit like the thumb draw calls for a more 'dynamic' form for me.
Edit: I also should state that the drawing motion itself is different for the both techniques, as the muscles are working in a different way.

I do something similar. My bow arm is slightly bent and hence the tricep is loaded too. On release the bow arm straightens and moves back, out of the way of the arrow. Also, my grip is light so the bow pivots in my hand.