Thumbring technique

Jose,
To answer your two questions separately:

1. Though the use of two fingers on the thumb is mentioned in Arabic works it is not advised. The use of a single index finger on the thumb is the normal method. The pressure from the index finger should be very light. All the manuals stress this. It follows that the strength of the thumb lock does not come from the finger on the thumb. All the manuals assert that the strength of the lock comes from the pressure of the thumb against the middle finger. The three fingers, middle, ring and little, are clenched tightly and the thumb is firmly pressed against the middle section of the middle finger. My shoulders give out before my thumb pulls away from the middle finger (this happens about 90 pounds for me).

2. If you are hitting your face with the thumb ring, I think that there may be two problems. One is the angle that you are holding your head and the other is the way your release the ring. While I normally draw to the ear, I occasionally anchor at the corner of the mouth. If the back of the thumb ring is touching the corner of the mouth, when you release you twist the drawing hand about 90 degrees as you punch backwards with your elbow. If you turn you head too far to the left, you may be pulling your hand directly into you cheek.

I hope this helps. It is hard to make recommendations without seeing what you are doing.

Bede you are referring to the twist as noted in arab archery. It is my personal choice for my release because it is cleaner and smoother than the other 2 types referred in arab archery.

Bede, your explanation is very clear and useful. I'll try your advise.
Thank you.

Bede wrote:

The use of a single index finger on the thumb is the normal method. The pressure from the index finger should be very light. All the manuals stress this. It follows that the strength of the thumb lock does not come from the finger on the thumb. All the manuals assert that the strength of the lock comes from the pressure of the thumb against the middle finger. The three fingers, middle, ring and little, are clenched tightly and the thumb is firmly pressed against the middle section of the middle finger.

Good to know! I am going to try the thumb technique for the first time this weekend. Looks like I would have done it quite wrong.

Cheers,
Daniel

There are lots of different thumb ring techniques. I have described the one that was popular for military and sporting use in the Middle East. A lot depends on your intentions: what type of bow, how heavy and also what shape your thumb is. Even in the Middle Eastern techniques there were dozens of variations based on finger length and palm size.

Thanx for the info Bede. Slowly but surely I am absorbing all this information
Alan

So I tried it for a couple of shots today. Unfortunately the only string I had was made of 6 strands of FastFlight without serving. Despite taping my thumb it hurt a bit. I found it difficult to push the thumb against the middle finger and at the same time keep the arrow in place with the index finger. But I still remember how I struggled not to drop the arrow from the bow hand with the three finger draw when I was a beginner, so I guess it is ok.

I pushed the arrow sideways against the string with the proximal joint of the index finger, which was resting about one centimeter ahead of the nock base. Is this a good way to do it?

Daniel,
You should have the middle section of the index finger over the thumb nail. The nock of the arrow at the beginning of the draw should be touching the middle of the proximal section of the index finger. As the draw progresses, the string angle moves the nock to the position opposite the joint.

Be careful your drawing hand wrist does not turn up. You want your metacarpal bones to be in the same plane as your forearm.

Your really should use a thicker string with serving. When drawing hurts the thumb, you get into bad habits unconsciously so in the end you waste your practice.

Thank you for your advice, Bede! I put on a serving this morning and tried drawing a few times. I am not sure what you mean by the nock moving opposite to the joint, but I expected the nock to slide towards the thumb while drawing. It didn't, just stayed a few millimetres above. When I nock the arrow, the nock is below the knuckles. I don't see how I could place it at the middle of the proximal section of the index finger without turning up the wrist.

I just saw this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9kjKOn9n-o
and I noticed a was tucking in my fingers too much.

Of course you're right regarding the bad habits. It made me release as soon as I reached the desired draw length.

Jos?Dom : do you have "blue fingernail syndrom" ?

Daniel,
These are some bad photographs of what I meant. Unfortunately, since I was taking them by myself with a timer and from an odd angle, they do not show some things correctly. The hand is turned too far up and the turn from start to end of the draw is exaggerated.

Depending and how far away from the arrow you put the thumb, you have the ability to have the nock of the arrow in front of the thumb at full draw. This is done be some Mongolian archers who intend to remove the index finger's pressure from the nock of the arrow entirely.

Thanks for your pictures, Bede! I can't take a picture right now, but it seems that my metacarpophalangeal joint is farther on the right from this point of view, which makes the string line up with the knuckles. Or is the angle of the wrist just tricking the eye in these photos? I compared hands with a colleague, his metacarpophalangeal joint is a bit closer than mine but not by much. Maybe this just another variation among people. Some people have a longer index finger than ring finger, some don't. Or a second toe that is longer than the first toe which I always found funny for some reason :lol:

Daniel,
These are not very good pictures. I will get someone to help me out. Because of the angle, I think the relation on the parts of the hand might be distorted.

This picture was taken at the broadhead section of the flight shooting at Bonneville Flats last year. You might be able to see what I meant about the relationship of the bones in the wrist to the forearm. This is using a Korean bow with a long draw.

This bow is horn bow or bamboo-fiberglass laminate bow ?

That was a modern bow. It was the bow given to me at the first World Traditional Archery Festival. The smoothness of the curves of the bent limbs is always a good indication of modern manufacture. It prevents overstressing of the materials.

I don't know why but I don't get it. I made a leather thumb ring and the ring makes the string slip half way to the tip of the thumb when drawing. I made a picture to hopefully make it clearer. The curvature along the arrow causes the string to rest where I put the red dot. Everything is clenched tighter when I actually draw, but for clarity of the picture I left the thumb rather loose.

http://itp.tugraz.at/~skerm/Bilder/thumbring01.jpg
http://itp.tugraz.at/~skerm/Bilder/thumbring02.jpg

This is really uncomfortable, even with my wife's 30# bow.
Without the ring I can place the string close to the joint, but that is not option for shooting as it hurts as well.

It is rather hard leather and 3mm thick, maybe that is the problem?

Daniel

The ring is too thick. The lip extents too far around the thumb. What you need to do is wet the leather and use a loop of string to hold it in the joint of your thumb until it dries enough to hold its shape.

3 mm leather has to be shaped while wet so that it can be formed around the thumb. Once dry it will become quite hard, but the shape will fit your thumb better.

Depending on how you grip the thumb, you also might want to shave the inside of the lip down to a thinner profile, but don't do this until you have made it bend correctly.

If the leather bends properly, you can hold the string safely anywhere from the joint to where your red dot is. However, if it feels uncomfortable, something is going wrong as you worked out.

Thanks for the advice! I tried to reshape the ring, but sadly I only made little progress so far. I also struggle with the hand position, e.g. keeping the wrist straight. It looks so easy and fluent in the videos. I'll keep trying!

I tried something else today.

http://itp.tugraz.at/~skerm/Bilder/hornring.jpg

I made it from a scrap piece of horn. The leather strip is just tucked through the ring, but I think I'll glue on there to make it softer to wear. I think this could work.

Daniel, that ring seems to be too flat and straight. A more curved, hollowed out on the inside ring would be more suitable.

Maybe you look at this: http://atarn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1341

JJ

Thank you for the reminder. I have seen this one before, but I forgot about it. I think this would suit me fine.
I shot with the flat ring yesterday and it was ok. I initially tried to make an antler ring, but it was unuseable. I think I know now how to shape one.

There is an old ring like your flat ring in the Metropolitan Museum of Art. There were also very flat Korean rings used in the old days.

Daniel: make sure you smooth the edges round your thumb so they're not pointy and edged. I speak from personal experience here.

Daniel,
I have a fairly flat Korean thumb-ring that I got from Thomas Duvernay about 10 years ago. you're on the right track though.
Nick

I shot about 100 arrows with this flat ring and it was alright, but it hurt my thumb a bit because it fit too tight. So I made it wider and took it to a 3d tournament this weekend. On the first target, I shot and the ring flew along with the arrow and I couldn't find it in the grass. :shock:

Daniel T. wrote:

I shot about 100 arrows with this flat ring and it was alright, but it hurt my thumb a bit because it fit too tight. So I made it wider and took it to a 3d tournament this weekend. On the first target, I shot and the ring flew along with the arrow and I couldn't find it in the grass. :shock:

Hey, there is a medicine made for toughening skin, it is called tincture of benzoin, and it is what I use for my thumb to reduce discomfort, and now I shoot without a thumbring. It really works, you should try it!

Hmm, I like my thumb the way it is, I think I'll pass. I am going to make it work with the ring.

No, I am sorry but it just makes the skin less likely to bruise and rip, I doesnt make it ugly and callused.

I finally made a thumb ring prototype similar to the one JJ showed. It feels fine so far, it should work for me.

I am not sure about the drawing technique though. I understand the wrist should not be held at an angle. I tried different approaches and it seems to work when I hold the hand at angle to the plane that is normal to the string. When drawing with three fingers, the back of the hand is almost parallel to the string, but with the thumb draw I found that this causes the wrist to bend. An angle of around 45? allows me to draw without bending the wrist. Is this the correct way of doing it? I recorded a video where I tried it with a low draw weight selfbow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkAHYDwvSEo

Here is another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__Kihog6JDA

Daniel

It appears to me in the first video that the middle and ring fingers are not closed tightly. This works with light bows but can be distracting with heavier ones. Turning the hand so the little finger is lower than the thumb is a good technique ultimately because it gives a faster smoother release. If you turn the hand too far you may have the index finger move in front of the string. This is corrected by releasing with a twist which leaves the little finger higher than the thumb.

The speed that the string moves means that it escapes the thumb almost as soon as the index finger starts to move away. The Turkish concentration in Kani on not throwing the drawing hand back on release shows that they were aware that most movement occurs after the release and is not really relevant to the shot. There are times when the rearward movement of the hand is necessary to correct other problems and it is prominent in Persian miniature paintings of battle and hunting.

Thanks! Yes, true, I must have forgotten the pressure because I was focusing on the positions. It works with this bow because it draws only 50#. It is much different with a heavier one! I tried and I need to push hard against the middle finger as you explained before to keep the thumb stable.

Bede wrote:

Turning the hand so the little finger is lower than the thumb is a good technique ultimately because it gives a faster smoother release.

Neat. I wasn't aware of this nuance. What's the reason for this? Is it because...

(a) If the wrist is not twisted, then the string remains in contact with the thumb for a longer time during the release. By contrast, if you use a twist then the period of contact is shorter since the thumb is at an angle.

(b) For a level wrist, the string might get trapped behind the thumb because it is closer to the thumb's distal joint (the tips of the index and thumb form an 'L' in front of the string). But for a twisted wrist, the string is sitting equidistant from the index distal joint and the thumb's distal joint (the tips of the index and thumb form a 'v' in front of the string). If you imagine the string as a vertical line splitting the 'v' or 'L' in half, then the string has an easier time escaping the 'v' than it does the 'L'.

With the little finger lower than the thumb and the bow held vertically, the string runs from the distal joint/crease of the thumb in the upper side diagonally to the other side of the thumb. It usually leaves the lip of the thumb ring partway to the tip.

When you perform the twist and release, the string moves to the halfway point on the thumb just before the release. This is an unstable position and the thumb flips open more quickly. At this time the index finger is no longer touching the nail of the thumb.

Bede wrote:

When you perform the twist and release, the string moves to the halfway point on the thumb just before the release. This is an unstable position and the thumb flips open more quickly. At this time the index finger is no longer touching the nail of the thumb.

Cool. Just to clarify, "halfway point on the thumb" means the crease of the distal joint, or halfway along the thumb pad?

So we discussed the technique where the draw wrist is twisted so the little finger is lower than the thumb during the draw... What happens if the little finger is higher than the thumb during the draw instead (let the bow remain vertical)? Or equivalently, what happens if we let the draw wrist remain level but we tilt the bow to the right (for a right-handed draw)?

Hang on a sec ....

I used to shoot with my little finger lower than my index finger but my index fingertip kept getting hit by the string. Now I do the opposite - little finger slightly higher than index finger.

I should have been clearer, but these descriptions run into so many phrases per sentence that I wonder if anyone con follow them.

I meant that the string moves to the midpoint of the pad of the thumb or the midpoint of the lip of the ring.

The degree to which the index finger intersects the string is dependent on how much you curl the index finger around the thumb, how close to the knuckle of the thumb the index finger sits and what part of the index finger touches the thumb.

For instance, if you do not bend the distal joint of the index finger and place the middle segment on the thumbnail, you can keep the index finger out of the way of the string. What you also need to do is turn the hand out at the wrist so that metacarpal bone at the base of the thumb is parallel to the arrow. You do not want your hand to form a fist pointing at the target. Even if the hand is perfectly horizontal, this posture slows down the release because the thumb has to travel farther to escape from under the opening index finger.

To summarise, the hand is rotated at the wrist so that the little finger is down and is also turned out so that the fist is pointing to the right of the target. Additionally, by putting the index finger over the thumb nail, you can feel when you are using too much pressure from the index finger on the thumb.

daryush wrote:

Hang on a sec ....

I used to shoot with my little finger lower than my index finger but my index fingertip kept getting hit by the string. Now I do the opposite - little finger slightly higher than index finger.

I now have a fitting thumb ring and I have practised with a 30# bow. I encountered this problem with index finger getting in the way of the string, too. I have curled the index finger a lot for the picture to show that it crosses the string.
This does not happen if I rotate the hand so that the palm is closer to a horizontal position. But when I do that, the string presses against the skin close to knuckle (red arrow in the lower picture) and this is very uncomfortable upon releasing because the string slaps the skin below the knuckle, which is standing out due to the pressure of the string.

I am not sure what to do about it. I have done a few shots that felt great though. There was no contact with the string and the finger did not get in the way. The release was very smooth and the flight was straight, but I can't tell what I did differently.. I appreciate any advice!

Daniel

Daniel T. wrote:

I encountered this problem with index finger getting in the way of the string, too. I have curled the index finger a lot for the picture to show that it crosses the string.

Granted I don't hold my hand at that much of an angle, but I can suggest two things to try:

(1) The Turkish twisting technique that Bede described (also demonstrated in one of Yokhua's videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZGG-b6dUdk ).

(2) Straightening the index finger a bit more to reduce the pressure it applies to your thumb. Stephen's videos describe it as pointing down at a 45 degree angle.

I can see two things in the photographs that might contribute to the problem. The first is basic: the three fingers that should be clenched tightly are partly open. This puts the thumb in an unsupported situation. This works with light bows but can be a problem with stronger ones. The second is more subtle: the hand, when seen from above is slightly twisted to the left. This puts the index finger in the way of the string.

If one turns the hand to the right (seen from above) until the thumb is exactly perpendicular to the path of the arrow, the index finger is moved entirely out of the path of the string.

Curling the index finger is a natural action caused by feeling the thumb is unsupported and needs reinforcement. With a stronger clench, it is easier to relax the index finger. By having the index finger not tight, your release is improved and you avoid certain injuries when you use heavier bows.

Justin, I have tried that twist, but I think that when I do that I loose control over the applied pressure on the arrow.

Bede, I did not think of that option of getting the finger out of the way. I really could have figured that one out! I was so focused on not bending the wrist to keep it in level with the forearm as you advised previously that I missed that option.
Regarding the clenching, I did not draw for the picture, maybe that is why I was sloppy. There are many things to concentrate on, such as not dropping the arrow. Keeping the fingers tight is important, no doubt. 30# are ok with the thumb alone, but I tried drawing my heavier bows too, and there it becomes important. Currently I don't manage more than 50# without help of the index finger, but I hope this will improve soon.

Thanks!

Daniel

Bede wrote:

There are lots of different thumb ring techniques. I have described the one that was popular for military and sporting use in the Middle East. A lot depends on your intentions: what type of bow, how heavy and also what shape your thumb is. Even in the Middle Eastern techniques there were dozens of variations based on finger length and palm size.

What technique is recomended for beginer with short fingers? I tried thumb draw a little bit. Regulary, i use 3 under to the mouth cormer with my 45# hunting recurve. Drawing it to with thumb was very hard for me. With improvized 28# bow it was nice and fine! When I lock thumb with midle finger instead first finger I got more space and it was more comfortable. Could that kind of draw be good?

Unless your fingers are dramatically short, resorting to locking with the middle finger is not good technique. It was known to the Chinese and the Yana Indian Ishi used it, but once you move onto stronger bows it causes dragging and poor release.

Generally speaking, the lack of space your refer to is caused by closing the thumb towards the base of the index finger; this is specifically warned against in the old books. Another way to do this is to move the index finger too close to the distal knuckle of the thumb. This latter behaviour results in a very slow release. Kani recommends that the base of the thumb nail should be visible, but I find my thumb nail length is less than the width of my index finger at its middle segment. My compromise is to move the index finger as close to the tip of the thumb while still pressing the thumb hard against the middle finger.

Not everyone can bend their thumbs to the same degree. The great flexure recommended by Taybugha and other authors requires practice and is more suitable to bare thumbs, leather thumb guards and the thin short metal rings. If you have a larger thumb ring, it is sometimes better to put the tip of the thumb ring on the middle segment of the middle finger close to the middle knuckle. The essential thing is not to use the index finger to hold the thumb in place with the index finger. It should rest there lightly. Otherwise your shooting becomes unpredictable and eventually you end up with injuries to the thumb nail with heavier bows.

The use of the middle finger on the thumb presupposes that the thumb is unsupported because it is farther for the thumb to bend to touch the ring finger firmly. Another similar draw is the assisted draw mentioned in Arab Archery which is superficially like a Japanese grip, but Japanese archers will recognise that the grip is different. This draw with two fingers over the thumb is relatively ineffective. You can draw a strong bow with it, but the release is sloppy and the strength of the bow does not compensate for it.

:) Well, not dramatically short. Thanks. I'll have better questions when I get proper equipment and start intensive practice. Just one more question for now... thumb angle on string? You wrote about lowering little finger compared to index finger. Should thumb also follow hand rotation and change angle on string?

I have been observing the wear patterns on one of my rings and I think that the thumb works better when it is at an angle to the string. This is a personal preference and I have not tested on bows above 90 lbs.

I find a leather ring very nice to use but not a horn one. It feels so unsafe by comparison, sliding on the string and such. Anyone else find or found this? The leather ring does such a good job I'm wondering if it's worth bothering, the release feels crisp and clean enough.

Hello Orda, my experience is very similar. A well fitting leather tab does the job very well. I have also found now that I can shoot with the bare thumb pretty comfortable with the bows say up to about 60 #, of course not a lot of arrows. I was actually quite surprised I can manage that as I didn't practice the bare thumb at all and I was not able to draw the bow more than half the way with the bare thumb when I was shooting the three finger way only. Seems that using the leather and hard rings made my thumb skin tough enough to bear the strain.
Where did you get your thumb ring from, what's the shape? Do you have problems with the string sliding down the lip on the pad of the thumb or the other way, sliding behind the ring itself?

About the hard rings, I'm sure a well fitting hard ring is a pleasure to shot, but it can be a hassle and it can take a lot of time to get or made one that is really properly shaped and fits you, the matter is not made simpler by the fact that we have a lot different types of rings to choose from, and each one can work in a different manner.
My opinion now is that one should first get the feel for the thumb draw and its mechanics and that it's best done with the leather tab, better still having a proper coach at hand, what is unfortunately not always possible, only after getting some experience one is actually able get to understand, and that doesn't mean understand fully, the shapes and design of the various thumbrings.
An ill fitting ring can harm you, as well as you won't be able to develop your technique well, thus I think it's important to learn to shoot first before you start playing around with hard rings.
Saying that I think that making and trying all the different types of hard rings gives one a lot of pleasure so it's definitely worth the effort just for the sake of it.
My advice to those just starting and desperately wanting to get a thumbring would be against being tempted to buy any of the sort that you can't try yourself on, I've been there myself. There is plenty of thumbrings sold around at different archery stores or such, but unfortunetelly most often the seller doesent really know enough and the rigns can be next to useless.

Ditto. These days I use a hard leather tab tied by a lace ( http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~jtma/chines ... 11_web.jpg ). It's not the prettiest thing, but it's functional and inexpensive.

Getting or making a custom, perfectly-fit rigid ring turned out to be either too expensive or too time-consuming for me. During the process of searching for the "right ring" (instead of starting with a basic leather tab), my thumb sustained all manner of injury, which delayed my development as an archer by several months.

Ashbow, you are spot on. Far better to concentrate on technique, consistency and such. The rings I tried were Korean style, either made or purchased. Even then there are subtle variations and Justin mentions how labour intensive it can be to fashion something that doesn't suit. The sliding I found was both along the string and slipping towards the lip. Clumsy, most probably me, but I can honestly say I prefer to feel the string. I'm doing ok with my release so I can't really see the point in changing. Well, there will always be curiosity of course :wink: but I'm happy enough. Coaching would be very nice, I agree.

Justin, mine is similar, the tab thins and extends to the back of my thumb and is tied there. Five minutes with a piece of scrap leather and perfectly effective.

I use boiled leather thumb rings. I leave a piece of leather to soak for a while (I tend to leave it overnight, but I think 2 hours will do ... I was in a rush and have just done some in 2 hours). They are easy to make and you can make the fit as you like it, and because it is boiled leather, they function similar to a horn one.

Recently I made my first "hard" thumb ring out of water buffalo horn. To my surprise it came out really well :roll: It is however whole lot different experience to draw the stronger bow (#65@32") with one comparing to laminated leather tab ring I have been using ever since I first started my thumb draw jurney.
Anyway I totally agree with you guys: one should take time, start with light to medium draw weight bow and leather tab, very slowly progressing to hard material rings.

I buy this hungaria hand made thumbring, never seen same, even i try to search.

Very good release, but string hit in my thumb and can?t use long periods.

Few more pics...

Any advice how i can make this better?

Technically, there are a lot of problems with that ring. The lip is too short for your thumb which explains why you are being hit by the string. It is also too short to sufficiently distribute the pressure of the bowstring over the pad of the thumb. There is so much material in the ring part that I wonder if this ring did not start out as a different ring, more of a deep Korean archer's ring.

You could fold over a piece of leather to cover and extend the lip to protect your thumb. There is a group of lipless bronze rings that may have been used this way. Your ring has enough material in the ring section for the hole to be enlarged so that the leather tab does not make it too tight. I have seen a leather and metal ring made like this used by a Mongolian archer a few years ago.

Thanks Bede.

I try some leather, maybe i can use this somehow.
Hole must enlarge and shape.

I have another "normal" thumbring, which works great.

Weird, this ring suppose to be made by Hungarian bowmaker T?th...

He was probably experimenting and may have produced a ring that worked perfectly for a particular technique. There are many variations in thumb size and how comfortable the person finds bending the thumb. Some makers concentrate on making replicas and others like to experiment. Many do both.