Bows Pros and Cons

I don't think you can break down bows into simple categories. The Manchu bows perform well with the arrows that they are designed for. Although a Manchu bow won't perform as well with a light arrow, it was never intended to either. I personally think that hand shock is an artefact of technique rather than the individual bow though the smoothness of all bows is increased by using heavier arrows. The Mamluk khatrah follow-through eliminated hand shock on all the rough feeling bows I have shot.

Adam Karpowicz wrote in his book that Turkish bows are capable of performing well with both heavy and light arrows. What he emphasised is that they performed better with light arrows than most other bows. Penetration is related to kinetic energy and arrow head cross section and shape. I have shot light arrows from three different Turkish bow reproductions (horn, wood and sinew composites) and heavy arrows from two of them. The arrows obeyed the normal laws of physics. The light ones had a higher initial velocity but also slowed down faster. The heavy ones were predictable and easy to aim.

Mark Stretton, the English longbow researcher, refers to the blunt trauma of heavy arrows striking an armoured body so even penetration isn't the final test of efficiency.

For long distance harassment of unarmoured horses and men, I would suggest light, small-headed arrows. This suggests that Turkish bows would be very useful. Mogul crab bows and the bows described as Khorasani in Arabic literature would be good too. Manchu bows and possibly some Persian and Crim-Tatar bows would not work as well.

For shooting armoured opponents at medium to close range, all of the bows I have mentioned would work well if the appropriate arrows were chosen. That suggests to me that the users of Manchu bows were not looking for long range weapons. Manchu bows came into prominence when firearms were widespread in China (if you trust the diary of Dzengseo) and their primary use was on horseback in the charge.

I think that for a meaningful comparison, you have to fit the bows and the arrows to the circumstances rather than try to look at them in isolation. You could ask yourself for example, which bow would I like to hunt a tiger with? Tigers live in forests, so you probably be on foot. A bow that had a lot of knock down power would appeal to me. (In India, on elephant back would be a different matter.)

Hi Bede

Your reply was very informative, thanks.

But what's a khatrah?

Also what's the difference between a Khorasani bow and other bows? And how come Moghul crab bows are good, I was always under the impression that they were not so good performers.

Khatrah is the follow-through where the bow rotates forward. The upper limb goes down and the lower limb comes up under the arm. The process is caused by pushing the belly of the handle with the web between the bases of the thumb and index finger while squeezing the grip with the lower three fingers. It occurs as a result of the release of tension when the bow is shot.

Khorasani bows in the 14th century are described as short limbed with long necks. The description in Saracen Archery is

The Khorasanians adhere to the principle that the length of the lower siyah should be one-sixth of the laminated portion of the bow, the upper siyah being longer by as much as the measurement of the little finger when turned down in finger-reckoning. The working part of the upper limb would, in this case, as long as the archer's forearm, and the lower as long as his upper arm. [page 6]

The translators suggest that the bow would have been about 37 inches long.

There are several different grades of crab bow. I have been told by Edward McEwen that the best quality crab bows performed very well. He has built many and had access to several original ones.

Okay then Bede, you hit the nail on the head, anyone else with input? Also, what bows would be best for shooting targets off the horse and ground, long drawlength, and separately what bow would be good for hunting along with a long drawlength?

For safety's sake and for ease of use, I always recommend that people use light bows on horseback. We are not fighting armoured warriors so we don't need the extra penetration. A missed shot from a powerful bow can go a long way, depending on the angle. Since most modern horse archers are using targets at the same height as the archer on the horse, a missed shot can go a long way.

Some people are now doing qabaq (gourd) shooting. Though most people aren't shooting at the extremely high angles that the original archers used, this does not mean missed arrows will not travel a long way too. Angles closer to 45 degrees would accidentally produce maximum distance.

If you can, I would advise heavy arrows, thick strings and light bows for horse archery target shooting.

Shooting target on foot is different. You want a bow with as flat a trajectory as possible. There is a modern trend among traditional archers to use arrows with heavy points. This is fine with very heavy bows, but is inefficient with light bows. The arguments given are that the centre of gravity is farther forward which increases the steering effect of the feathers so improving accuracy. However, heavier arrowheads require stiffer shafts which weigh more. The result is a slower arrow which needs more correction from whatever degree of Archer's Paradox which the shooter imparts. Either you aim higher or use a heavier bow to compensate for this problem.

If you use lighter points, you can use lighter shafts which fly better. The Japanese, who use a long draw have very light arrowheads. The Ottomans, who used a medium draw, had tiny points of only about 1/8 of an inch in diameter. The English in the nineteenth century used light metal heads as do the Koreans today.

Hunting is different. You have to have a bow you can control and shoot accurately, which is suitable for shooting the game you will be hunting. I think the reason that heavy arrowheads entered target shooting was the need for hunters to practise with arrows of roughly the same mass and behaviour as their hunting equipment. This is good practice for them.

I have heard from one Korean archer that American hunters were very happy with modern Korean bows when hunting. It is important to remember that Korean bows made from modern materials are much more stable than wood, horn and sinew ones. I have a Turkish bow made from traditional materials by Adam Karpowicz for hunting and it is extremely stable, capable of launching heavy hunting arrows and very accurate. I also have a Grozer bow in the Sino-Mongolian style, which I think would be a good hunter using a long draw. It too is capable of shooting a long arrow with accuracy. Most of the modern Korean bows I have would work well. Some are designed for medium length arrows and others for long arrows. The only proviso I would make is that, if you wish to use long arrows hunting, make sure that the bow is optimised for that draw length.

Hunting in many countries is controlled by specific recommended bow weights. In the USA, these weights vary from state to state. There are also broad head requirements. You should always use a bow you can control. However, in hunting, you are not shooting hundreds of arrows so you can use a bow heavier than your target bow. Taking all of that into account, make sure your bow is legal, controllable and capable of efficiently doing its job.

So for long draws, and smoothness what type of horn bow designs would be good for me as an archer, because I am mostly medium to long distance shooting and horseback as well. I am a teenager, thus strong, so I can pull up to 60lb. if the bow is very smooth like a korean bow, but the problem is is that my draw is fairly long, 34 inches, so what bow styles would you suggest?

There are several horn bow designs that work well at draws of 34 inches.

• Korean bows. Make sure they are designed for your length. Some are optimised at about 32 inches.
  Crimean Tatar bows. The long versions of these (about 54 inches) are very good with long arrows. The Crimean Tatar arrows in the Grayson Collection and in Karlsruhe are for these long draws.
  Manchu bows. These bows are designed for long draws and are very accurate. They are larger than the others. Because of the physical bow length you have to cant the bow for directly-to-the-front and directly-to-the-rear shots on horseback.

I figured you wouldnt mention the yuan bow because the arrows found for them were around 30" long right? Also korean bows are a little too tender for me, so crimean tatars and manchu bows then. Not alot of people make true manchu bows, I hear yokhua is selling them cheaply, I will try to talk to him. But Bede do you know anyone who makes Crimean horn bows with draws that length?

Lukas Novotny-Saluky made Crimen Tatar hornbow.

I dont think it can be drawn that far back.

:D simple way : 1, see Saluki site,

2, ask Lukas Novotny , if you dont confidence... :lol:

Trust me I am not afraid to ask Lukas, me and him are friends.

I am sure that Lucas can make a Crimean Tatar bow with a long draw length. I have seen a lot of his work and discussed bow making with him.

Yokhua is also an excellent bow maker and makes more than just Qing bows.

There are strong indications that the Mongols in the Imperial period did not draw past the ear. The low draws to the chest shown in the Dietz Album's painting of the Siege of Baghdad have been explained to me by Professor Seded Batkhuyagh as a method to achieve distance and elevation which would be necessary shooting over city walls. In his lecture in Korea, he showed three draw positions used in modern Mongolia and explained their purposes and how common they still are.

I have seen a superb Qing bow made by Yokhua, can take a very long draw and have a very good cast. Perfect looking, excelent feeling when drawn, it looks like the draw force is reducing at full draw. Very nice bow, I was really impressed.

Lucas, Almost anyone could achieve a draw length of 34" or more if they were determined to. Some kyudo archers draw 40" and even more.

There have been some really large Am Indian plains warriors who most likely never drew bows more than 20-24". Draw length is a technique not determined by stature alone.

Try something different. Enjoy different techniques.

How is your arrow making going? How about a pic? Jack