Hi, Ken Hulme, new guy here. I?ve been away from archery for 30 years or so, and am just getting back into things. I currently shoot a Toth Mongolian 48# bow. I?ve spent the last couple weeks absorbing the information here at ATARN. I am an inveterate researcher, and interested in ?the old ways?.
I?d like to re-open a discussion that ran in a couple of posts here about a year and a half ago - that of traditional Javanese/Indonesian Panahan archery using the bows with the ?large cylindrical handles? which extend primary out of the back side of the short-limbed bows.
There are several references to this style scattered among a dozen or so posts here, plus the discussion under Indonesia on the Content page of ATARN. However those threads/articles leave a number of questions unanswered for me. I?d like to see if anyone has discovered any new information or answers.
1. Historically, why/how/when did the large cylindrical handle develop? I have a theory I?ll put forward in another thread if anyone is interested.
2. Is there any written information, inscriptions, or other physical anthropological information in regards to the pre-WWII use of these bows for sport/hunting. There is one bow shown in the Grayson collection from the turn of the 20th century:
but the information leaves something to be desired. There is no indication of the draw weight of these bows. Are we talking 15#-25#, 25#-40#?
3. In regards to the traditional competitions, what is the approximate distance being shot over? 10 meters? 20 meters?
4. Just how skinny are those arrows? Hyarmendacil?s ?less than a centimeter? doesn?t mean much - almost every arrow I?ve ever seen is less than a centimeter in diameter.
5. Are there contacts for these traditional competitions? We wouldn?t want to see them overrun with tourists, but a few archery techno-geeks taking measurements and photos of bows and equipment could be very interesting.
6. Are these bows self bows, except for added siyahs or whatever the reflex extensions are called locally? Or are they composites? Most of the photos we have seem to point to self bows except for built up tips.
7. Anyone know where I can get a couple of strips of water buffalo horn to re-create that bow in the Grayson Collection - without having to by a whole herd of buffalo?
Bede
I can answer some of your questions
2. I believe there are several references to Indonesian archery pre-WWII. Look under Dutch East Indies. Morse includes several Malay releases in the two versions of his work on arrow releases. There are other references in travel writings of the time.
I have held the bow in the Grayson Collection. The horn limbs are thick and wide. I cannot estimate the strength, but it looked like it was in the 40-50 pound range.
3. I think there might be details in Asian Fighting Arts by Smith and Draeger. I have a copy somewhere but I haven't looked at it for 30 years.
4. I have seen some old hardwood arrows in the Koppedrayers' home which were about 1/4 inch in diameter at the nock and the centre of the shaft. The nocks were ivory and the points were conical steel. The shafts were painted at the shaftment, but the feathers were long gone, and over the steel points. We needed a magnet to identify the metal because it was entirely covered. The arrows were barrelled and about 25 inches long. These arrows were intended for target shooting and were of very high quality. Similarly sized, but lower quality arrows are still being made.
6. Technically the bows are self horn bows. There is no sinew used in their construction. They are usually made from five pieces, two tips, two limbs and a handle.
7. You could approach Peter Cua in the Philippines. He probably could get extra long horn for you.
Hyarmendacil
KenH wrote:
I?d like to re-open a discussion that ran in a couple of posts here about a year and a half ago - that of traditional Javanese/Indonesian Panahan archery using the bows with the ?large cylindrical handles? which extend primary out of the back side of the short-limbed bows.
Was that the one I started with the question I asked about glues for bow-making in Indonesia? If not, I'd certainly like to see the thread because there's likely something that I don't yet know about in there.
2. Is there any written information, inscriptions, or other physical anthropological information in regards to the pre-WWII use of these bows for sport/hunting.
Dutch chronicles describe archery as one of the favorite sports of the Javanese nobility, which makes sense considering the collective obligation placed upon male Muslims to learn archery and the prominent place of archery in the Hindu and native mythologies that underlie the Islamic layer in Javanese culture. And mentions of larger (presumably military) bows being carried by the female palace guards in colonial-era Javanese courts. Then there was a 16th-century Spanish traveler who mentioned "great bows" in use among the Javanese, and Borobudur reliefs showing long self bows in the hands of (presumably) Javanese warriors; it's remarkable that these appear to be compass bows with no signs of the cylindrical handles seen in later bows, though the difference is not surprising considering that Borobudur is a damned old temple from the 9th or even the 8th century AD. Nothing more specific than that, though. Yet.
There is no indication of the draw weight of these bows. Are we talking 15#-25#, 25#-40#?
The lower range seems realistic for the museum bow I saw. The Jogja competition bows appear to be more like 30-pound bows, give or take a couple of pounds. No idea about the rest.
3. In regards to the traditional competitions, what is the approximate distance being shot over? 10 meters? 20 meters?
25-30 meters in Jogja. Again, no idea about the rest.
4. Just how skinny are those arrows? Hyarmendacil?s ?less than a centimeter? doesn?t mean much - almost every arrow I?ve ever seen is less than a centimeter in diameter.
Because I coldn't measure those arrows precisely. But they were really thin--five milimeters across or less in the case of the museum bow. The competition arrows in Jogja were thicker and more robust, being essentially shorter versions of the arrows used in the Nationals target archery rounds.
5. Are there contacts for these traditional competitions? We wouldn?t want to see them overrun with tourists, but a few archery techno-geeks taking measurements and photos of bows and equipment could be very interesting.
You could just walk into the one in Jogja and start asking around. The schedule is once every 70 days, as long as it's not raining on the appointed day. Yes, it does involve quite a bit of luck.
No ideas yet about the Sumedang competitions or any of the others.
6. Are these bows self bows, except for added siyahs or whatever the reflex extensions are called locally? Or are they composites? Most of the photos we have seem to point to self bows except for built up tips.
Yes, self bows, and there aren't even reflex/recurve extensions. All the recurve I saw on the bamboo bows were working recurves made from the very same piece of bamboo.
