Indo Persian bow, arrows and quiver - Dimensions for replica

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replica

replica

replica

replica

replica

replica

replica

replica

dimensions...

Arrows

Arrows

Arrows

... though the arrows are very old, I still can see the paintings and the length of the fletchings (3x)...

Arrows


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Stephen can you help, please

arrows

arrows

Arrows

Arrows for war, hunting

Arrows for war, hunting

Arrows for war, hunting

Arrows, replicas

Arrows

Arrows again

Arrows again

Arrows again

Arrows again

Arrows again

Arrows again

Arrows again

.... for the cresting I used Email Paint from Revell, in the US or UK it is also knows as Testor's paint. It is important to sand the bamboo shafts before applying the paint

One example of the "template" for the making of a folded quiver

.. and here the finished one

Quiver,s again

Reto, that's an amazing job! What kind of nocks did you use?

...

Wow, Reto,

these crab bows look superb! The paint has a very nice "antique" look. What kind of paint/varnish did you use? What kind of wood was used for the siyahs?

Nice arrows and quiver, too...

I?ve got to visit you next time when I?m in Switzerland;-)

Best regards, JJ

Some comments about the arrows:

- I matched the bamboo shafts according to weight and then I grouped them

- Thickness of the shafts is about 7mm

- For the nocks I used horn inserts, but also pieces of hardwood, all wrapped with sinew and then shaped with sandpaper

- I used TOPHAT arrowheads which fit quite well to small diameters (exact 6,5mm) see link http://pfeilspitze.com/tophat_de/produk ... small.html

- For the cresting I used Revell paint and I made a very useful jig

- I used a feather burner for trimming the feathers http://www.3riversarchery.com/product.asp?i=4171 important: there are two models available one with 110V and another one with 220V

I am fully aware that my INDO-PERSIAN replicas will never be competitive in design and maybe in performance with the ones from the past, but I simply like them, though they may have fancy colors. The horn nocks are smaller so they can fit modern strings (3mm).


Some comments about the quiver,s:

- They are based on original measurements I could take in the museums
- Their are many different ways how to build them, so I don't call them "real replicas", just replicas. They way I built them and the usage are perfect for horse archery.


Any comments are welcomed
Reto

WOW,Amazing work ,Superb to say the least.

I?m moved. Very beautiful :shock:

Reto, your work is pure art. Amazing!

Holy cow :D

Excuse the expression. This is really awesome! There must have gone a "few" hours of work into those arrows :shock:

You wrote "replica" above the pictures of the bows - are they? They look pretty old :)


Thanks espesially for the drawing of the bow. I will definitely try to make one with the measurements of your drawing.

Keep it up!

MOST BEAUTIFUL ARROWS I HAVE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE! :shock: Reto, are your crab bows antiques or can they be shot? And Reto, what type of bamboo do you use?

Congrats! Wonderful work, thanks for sharing.

Beautiful work Reto, candy for the eye. I am guessing these are built on Yumi old stock shafts?

Another technique that an atarnite has discovered is using used Korean arrows which were selling for $4 at WTAF. The supply did not last long, you can imagine. -j-

Reto, I have some questions for you:

1) Those crab bows looks barely used by the amount of reflex. Do you use them? They look great.
2) How could you compare a Turkish bow to a crab bow? Which one do you prefer or enjoy more?
3) How long are your flecthings? I like to use long fletching with Asian style bows. The problem is that the feather burner isn't long enough so that way I cut my fletchings with tape and scissors. For the same reason I use an extra long jig (made by Richard Head in England)
4) What's your bamboo source?
5) The painted part on the point extreme seems a problem with hard targets. I imagine it will be ruined after regular shooting.
6) I don't know if you tested the shafts yet, but in that case, do you find spine problems just matching the shafts by weight or that's fine.
7) Did you applied varnish to the shafts? They look dark so maybe you heated them for straightening.

Again, congratulations. M??a and you are the best arrow makers here, no doubt about that 8)

Jose, thanks for the flowers

About the crab bows, they are both antiques as well as the Indian arrows, I was too too fast and did not finish my explanations, just replica... 2nd I should review before submitting my post. Sorry.

Both crab bows are nicely built, but never reach the qualities of Turkish bows in the field of decoration and finish. Performance wise, I assume they were almost the same. In India it is difficult to find Buffalos with long horns, so I simply think this kind of bow established over decades due to limited resources.

Crab bows were built in 7 but also in 5 pieces where the core (two limbs without kasan part) and the handle were made of one piece.

My fletchings are between 11,5 and 16,5cm long. I used the feather burner for trimming only. In the end it is all about "process management", i.e. first the long straight parts and then a second wire for the rest.

I have different bamboo sources:

Germany:
http://www.bambuspfeile.de/
www.gervase.de

Asia (China, Japan):
http://kashire66.en.ec21.com/Bamboo_Arr ... 82307.html

http://www.asahi-archery.co.jp/


The EMAIL Paint from Revel or Testor is very resistant, no problem so far. Bamboo arrows have been matched according to weight for centuries and not for spine. This grass has a different behavior.

About the making of Bamboo arrows, I highly suggest to check the website http://www.koreanarchery.org/ . Ask Thomas for his latest book and the CD's about arrow and bow making. Pictures say more than a thousands words.... also about the heating and straightening process.

Reto

Reto you are right about everything but one fact in particular is wrong,Waterbuff horn in long lengths is easily available particularly in the southern parts of India and the states of Assam and Nagaland.

PjSingh, you are right, but please do not forget, the region of the Mughal empire was closer to Rajasthan and the region of todays Pakistan, or simply upper north and there I did not see big quantities of buffalos.

The higher the need,demand for buffalo horns, the higher the likelihood horn became scare/rare and bowmakers had to go for other alternatives.

BTW I spent weeks in India for business reasons. So far I only found one company providing buffalo horns or horn plates which can be used for bowmaking. But, they treat the horns with heat, oil, and pure power/force, you need to tell them first what you want.... Dealing with them is a nightmare, "sorry Mr. Reto, with have big problems, the weather is too hot, the Indian post too slow, we have old machines, we dispatched your goods, but still have problems, can you suppport us, please send us some money, ....etc...

Well, Indians have the time, Westerners the money...

I absolutely agree with you on these points,I had a nightmare of an experience myself,I found a supplier and saw what he had which was suitable but their service was pathetic.I am looking into kerela for horns now and should be able to find suitable suppliers there,just have to make a trip there.
The main area for water buff these days is Punjab where they are plentiful but no one slaughters them and the majority of buff's there are the river breeds with small horns,the swamp breeds are the ones with the most suitable horns and are found in u.p state and Bihar as well.

Nice work .....

Reto, I was wondering if you have got a picture of the original quiver that you made the drawing of? I've started making one with the measurements from your drawing. Thanks a lot for it!

It would be nice to see the original quiver, to try to replicate the finish of it too. Perhaps you also know something about its background/age/etc.?

I will take some pictures of my work later.

Okay, the drawing is a "generic" version of a few original quivers?
It should not have anything inside it? - like a seperator (like the turkish one seen here on atarn recently) for the arrows/etc?

I've never handled such a quiver before, but it seems like a very practical model compared to the tube-quivers. Looking forward to trying it.

I appreciate your drawings very much. They are very informative and easy to read (although they could be posted in higher resolution :P ). Keep it up!


Here's how the quiver looks tonight. I'm not sure if I want to colour it black. - would that be the most correct historically?

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Now I just need to start making the bow :)

Quivers were all sorts of colours. Black quivers were popular with the Mongols in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries. The decoration was often done in gold lacquer or gold leaf.

Persian and Turkish quivers could be any colour that they had dyes for. Sometimes the quiver pieces were all one colour, but often the inside face (the one against your body) and the outside face were different colours. Another common variation in miniatures from the Safavid period was to have the external pocket a different colour from the main body.

I have added a picture of a bow case and quiver I made fifteen years ago for blunts for a mediaeval group. I used contrasting colours. If you want a good looking product, dye the leather before your sew it together. I usually put the stitching holes in first too so that the dye runs into them and light coloured threads are not affected.

Brilliant! Thanks for the as always informative post :)

I think I will try the rust-in-water-blackening. I've also got some fake gold leaf that I am considering trying on it. Would the technique be the same for decorating leather goods with gold leaf, as for bows? I need to go through Adams chapter on this again.

My suggestion for gold leaf is to indent the areas where you wish to use it so that they will below the general surface of the quiver. After any painting or gilding is complete, the leather should be lacquered to protect the paint and gilding. This is especially important with something like imitation gold leaf to prevent oxidation of the metal and colour changes.

Ordinary leather working tolls for embossing would work well. Books on bookbinding have very good information on gilding and tooling leather.

here, i am really wonder how inside of quiver was made, do you have any picture?
by the way, some quivers had only rope to carry it, instead of leather strap, see
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Bashqort; Something bad happened to this quiver. The middle suspension area has been cut off as has the tip where the arrows would rest. Looks like someone collected the metal parts, leather and all.

And the tasseled cord isn't used to hang the quiver. It's a "brush" to clean off your arrows.

Getting ready to make a new quiver and arrows to go with my Crab horn bow that will be here before too long, really like the folded designs that I see in this thread, thank you all for posting them.
All the best,
Alan

This quiver had been used for a military wheellock pistol after the new owner picked it up from the battle field. What an abuse

Is there any explanation for the extra small pocket sewn onto the outside of the quiver? Was it intended for different arrows, or perhaps for an extra string/etc?

The outside pocket was designed to take special arrows or the arrows you intended to shoot first. This is particularly clear in Safavid Persian miniatures where arrows with different coloured fletching or extra heavy amaji arrows without fletching are shown in the pocket.

The damaged quiver from Karlesruhe was remade as a horse pistol holster. The cord may or may not have been associated with it. Several of the Karlsruhe quivers have cords added to them for suspension in the collection probably centuries ago. Turkish, Persian and Indo-Persian quivers were suspended by straps, usually with a leather base, but sometimes made of or covered by brocade or directly embroidered or covered in bullion wire embroidery. There are artistic depictions of cord-type belts, similar to some Turkish sword belts. The suspension straps are integral parts of the belt in that case. There are pictures of belts that look like white alum-tanned leather with no decoration. Usually they appear as separate to the sword belt or the decorative belt so that you can take your bow case and quiver off without removing your decorative belt or your sword. These belts had the suspension straps made by knotting loops into the belt similar to the way some Afghan horse bridles are made.

Tassels were used to wipe arrows in English style archery. I have seen no evidence of their use in the East except as decorative pieces as with closed quivers where they are some times (Tang Dynasty) shown being stuffed in the mouth of the quiver to stop the arrows rattling.

Here in this photo which shown achaemenian soldier is it real or is just a myth?

It is a reconstruction based partly on bas-reliefs at Persepolis and glazed bricks at Susa. The robe has been reconstructed from some early ideas based on the glazed brick representations of Persian archers in Susa. However they are wearing a striped cloth headband. The warriors dressed in the same way at Persepolis sometimes wear a hat with fluted sides or sometimes have a gorytos rather than a large back quiver.

Placing the foot on the bow is from a description of a Greek author, the length of the bow might be similarly from a Greek written description. I am uncertain whether either of these descriptions were really about the Persians or instead about one of the allied tribal groups.

The quiver is based on both the the sources of reliefs, Persepolis and Susa. Similar quivers with pendant straps are seen on contemporary seals.

A better view on Achaemenid infantry could be acquired by looking at photographs of the bas-reliefs at Persepolis and coloured images are provided by pictures of the figures of Immortals from Susa. Reconstructions like this add nothing to a viewers' knowledge of the subject except by encouraging him or her to go back to the sources. We are lucky that the original carvings are well published and available.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Immortals

Hehe, poor quiver!

Mine has been bathing together with some iron for a week:

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I hope it is okay that I sort of hijack your thread, Reto?

Here are two pictures of the quiver again, the first is taken just after taking it up from the water, while the second shows how it looks now. It dryed quite greyish whit some small more black spots. To those of you who have done this before: do you think I should let it stay longer in the iron-water? Perhaps I should add some vinegar to the water? There should be enough steel wool in it.


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Nice job Kviljo!! I like that it's not a "perfect" dye job. Gives the quiver more character. Makes it look well used but not abused.

Kviljo,

Did you dye the leather before you sewed the quiver together or afterwards? Traditionally, you would dye each piece of leather separately and then sew them together. When the leather is undyed, I mark all the grooves and use an awl to make all the stitching holes. This makes assembly quicker. Moistening the leather before apply the dye is a way to improve penetration. Soaking the leather in dye is a good way of hardening the leather. If you want the leather to stay softer, but still stiff, rub the dye into the surface with a piece of sheep skin with the wool on. To get a deeper colour, dye the leather, let it dry and then dye it again. Discoloured spots are sometimes caused by remnant concentrations of substances from the tanning. There are chemicals you can rub on the leather before dyeing to even out the surface. They are often called "levellers".

In surviving Turkish quivers, the strap on the inside face is a single long piece split into two for most of its length and folded over to make a loop at the top. The two strap ends are threaded through slits in the inside face of the quiver and tied together at the base of the quiver. This allowed some adjustment of length. It was not decorated and usually not dyed. The other two straps could be plain or decorative. Sometimes they were dyed leather, but surviving cloth straps also exist with patterns woven into them.

In some Turkish quivers, instead of cutting slits into the inside face of the quiver, the makers sewed on little rectangular keepers of leather. All of the quivers from Turkey I have seen have the two straps on the leading edge of the quiver go through slots cut from the outside face of the quiver through the inside face exactly as you have made them.

Thanks, Ken! I'm thinking of trying to decorate it with some gold - if I manage to dye it more evenly.

Bede, have a look at page 4 of this thread. There's pictures of the undyed quiver. I stitched it together before dyeing. I should have dyed the pieces seperately, because the inside of the outer pocket is a little more greyish than the rest, plus the straps have stripes of undyed leather underneath the buckles.

I don't think the dye I used can be applied by hand in any manner? It is simply vegetable tanned leather put in water together with some steel wool in it for about a week or two. As far as I know it is a process that is documented back to the 1600-hundreds in vestern Europe at least. I'm not sure if I did it correctly, since it didn't become as black as I wanted it to.

Thanks for the information on the straps. I think I will make a new one for the inner strap. I'm not sure if I understood exactly how it was folded over at the top? - a ~1,5cm wide strip of leather that is split along the middle into two 0,75cm wide strips, except for the upper perhaps 1cm? Or a single 0,75cm wide strip folded over at the top?

Kviljo,
I will make up a strap and photograph the process and post it here.

I had a look at The Traditional Crafts of Persia for dye recipes. For black, it was usual to use a two stage process. First the material, yarn or leather, was dyed with henna and then it was dyed with indigo. You could also dye with a mix of tannic acid extracts and iron vitriol. For a more intense black you could dye first with indigo and then the tannic acid/iron vitriol mixture. You can use the green rinds of walnuts for a dark brown dye.

In the case of using any of the above recipes, test them first on your leather. Different remnant chemicals from the tanning could react with the dyes causing unexpected results. Also beware of the possibility of poisoning and allergic reactions.

I saw one quiver of the Qianlong Emperor which was made from the naturally black leather of the leopard. It was a deep black heightenede by silver embroidery.

I finished another 25 Indo-Persian arrows with similar paintings as before, but focused more this time on the arrowheads and how to insert them

R

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Hi reto,

very nice arrows! You wanted to get more weight into them is that the reason for the bolt-nuts?

It seems your new bow has arrived. Looks very good ;-))

JJ

Hi Reto,

That's a fantastic job. I still don't see clearly how you insert the metallic pieces and finish the whole thing. Maybe there's a missing picture.

Again, congrats!

Nice bow reto, good job.Arrowheads are too very nice, only feathers are ...no that .

i can't breath to see these wonderful bamboo arrows,it is full of culture of arabian,i feel blood full of my eye and chest and stop to breath for its amazing beauty and neat and cute,i guess such arrows sell at 20-30$/pc,may be some is 50-60$/pc yes?

Dont stop breath , Tiger ! Realx, not all is money :lol: .

yes,my dream is open my archery club,it need a lot of money,or i am often in boring and unhappy that i can't open my archery club in my rest life

Reto,
Your use of epoxy is strangely close to some of the arrows I have. A purplish-black resin was melted into the reed shafts and the tang of the head was inserted while it was still hot and held in the proper alignment until the resin set. I assume you could just heat the tang and slowly force it into cold resin. Pine or birch resin might work. The same resin is found inside Indian sword hilts and it seems remarkably impact resistant.

The small metal ferrules on my arrows are really thin; perhaps 0.5 mm in wall thickness. I have tried using small brass tubes sold for model making and they do work. Somewhere I have an arrowhead with the ferrules still attached because the bits of wood, glue and resin are stuck to the top of the tang.

for pass custom 100% also for protect buyers healthy,our shafts must be passed higher temperature carbonization for kill all disease or worm etc,i worry kashi or other seller haven't carbonization machine and nobady garantee their bamboo is 100% safety

Reto,

Do you have strung picture? Paintings looks so good, congratulations.

Cem

Fabulous.

i am boring how to sell my huge stock of horn strips,i have 300pairs in stock

This is - Magnificent Weapon !! Iam dreaming to make like this one in future!!
Can you post the picture with strung bow or you stretching the Mughal bow? Please?