flight arrows
Actually I? ve finished some wooden flight- bows. Now I need the fitting arrows.
Checking out as much infos on flight-arrows as possible I came across some details I?ve never heard before.
You?ll find a lot of infos about the barreling of flight- arrows, balancing them, heads of flight- arrows, their reenforced nocks and fletching them.
The main problems seems to be to get a light arrow capable to make a stable flight.
In this context I met some infos focused on Osmanian flight- arrows, telling that Osmanian flight- arrows had been done as laminations of different woods. 4 wooden slats have been glued, than they had been shaped. It would make sense, cause the glue- lines will made a shaft more stable.
Have a look at Alan Case? great build- along on:http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/29783
Next info is about the Osmanians balancing flight- arrows by drilling tiny holes into the shaft for to fill them with hot quicksilver. This is very sense making too, myself was thinking about balancing flight- arrows by driving small nails into the shaft.
I wonder why there is so less info about flight- arrows in the ATARNET, a great flightbow is not more than 50% of the whole matter. The arrow is the key for a long and far flight- shot.
Maybe I?ve missed something, but any comment is very welcome.
Michael
Checking out as much infos on flight-arrows as possible I came across some details I?ve never heard before.
You?ll find a lot of infos about the barreling of flight- arrows, balancing them, heads of flight- arrows, their reenforced nocks and fletching them.
The main problems seems to be to get a light arrow capable to make a stable flight.
In this context I met some infos focused on Osmanian flight- arrows, telling that Osmanian flight- arrows had been done as laminations of different woods. 4 wooden slats have been glued, than they had been shaped. It would make sense, cause the glue- lines will made a shaft more stable.
Have a look at Alan Case? great build- along on:http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/29783
Next info is about the Osmanians balancing flight- arrows by drilling tiny holes into the shaft for to fill them with hot quicksilver. This is very sense making too, myself was thinking about balancing flight- arrows by driving small nails into the shaft.
I wonder why there is so less info about flight- arrows in the ATARNET, a great flightbow is not more than 50% of the whole matter. The arrow is the key for a long and far flight- shot.
Maybe I?ve missed something, but any comment is very welcome.
Michael
Redhawk said: I wonder why there is so less info about flight- arrows in the ATARNET
I think it may be that not so many people here are interested in flight shooting as a sport. Although if it were presented right perhaps more people would be. The biggest problem I see is that you need a large area of clear space - hard for city dwellers to find. Perhaps this summer, when we have fewer tourists, I'll be able to do some distance shooting along the beaches here in Florida.
I, personally, would like to get involved in Clout shooting, but I doubt there are two dozen people within 500 miles of me who even know what it is...
I think it may be that not so many people here are interested in flight shooting as a sport. Although if it were presented right perhaps more people would be. The biggest problem I see is that you need a large area of clear space - hard for city dwellers to find. Perhaps this summer, when we have fewer tourists, I'll be able to do some distance shooting along the beaches here in Florida.
I, personally, would like to get involved in Clout shooting, but I doubt there are two dozen people within 500 miles of me who even know what it is...
Redhawk,
I do flight shooting with mainly Turkish equipment and style. I also know Alan Case and have one of his beautiful sectional bamboo arrows.
Turkish flight arrows fall into several classes depending on their construction, fletching, and the kind of competition they were intended for. There are also several classes of practice arrows for developing your technique.
Originally, flight arrows were normal length arrows that had been lightened by barrelling and the reduction of tip weight. Subsequently, these specialist techniques were adapted to shorter arrows for use in an arrow guide. Later, with the development of the bilek siperi or wrist-shield type of siper, arrows of about 24.5 inches were standardised as normal flight arrows. Despite what some western writers have written, this was not a fixed standard and I have original Turkish flight arrows that vary from it.
Originally flight arrows were constructed of reed. Later a process of gluing together strips of reed was developed to make a stiff arrow with a very small diameter. In the beginning, strips split for a large type of reed growing around the Mediterranean could have been used. Alan Case uses bamboo and this works very well. To maintain strength while not damaging the surface of the reed or bamboo, it was shaved down on the inside to create the two tapers for the barrelled shape of the final arrow. The pieces were glued together around a thread or piece of wire. When the glue set this was removed and the arrow was left with a hollow core. A separate point of ivory and a wooden nock were glued on. The shaft was smoothed and polished. Alan Case's arrows for example are so well made that you need to get very close or use a magnifying glass to see the glue lines. Usually six, eight or twelve strips were used.
Later high quality arrows were made from coniferous woods. A piece was shaved down to the barrelled shape, two pieces of bakam, which is called brazil wood in English, were glued on one end to form the sides of the nock. A very small ivory tip was glued on the other. The form of the barrelling was determined by which parts were thickest relative to the physical centre of the arrow. This changed the centre of balance and the rate of tipping of the arrow relative to the parabola of its flight.
The tip end of the arrow was fragile and subject to much stress when it hit the ground so some times it was severely damaged. In order to repair the arrow, the damaged portion was sliced off with a diagonal cut. A new piece with a matching cut was glued on and the arrow was reshaped and a new point was added. I have arrows where this was done two or three times.
Some arrows were named pişrev and they were the top class of flight arrow with small fletching of feathers or parchment, a bakam nock and an ivory or bone conical tip. The nock was bound with very fine sinew in glue to stop splitting.
Another type of flight arrow was called karabatak after the cormorant feathers that were used to fletch it.
There was a separate type of distance competition for the azm?yiş arrow which had a more slender body than a flight arrow and also a small metal point. Its feathers were a little longer and very low.
The design criteria for flight arrows were:
What was done to alter the balance was to drill a small axial hole in the base of the nock and fill it with lead. In very old competitions where the archers used the same bow and arrow, a cheat would remove the lead to change the balance and weight of the arrow giving himself an advantage. Holes were some times drilled transversally near the nock. When the cheat shot, he filled the hole with wax which decreased the drag caused by the open hole.
On other parts of this site there are references to flight arrows and details of Turkish construction show with photographs of original arrows.
Hope this helped.
I do flight shooting with mainly Turkish equipment and style. I also know Alan Case and have one of his beautiful sectional bamboo arrows.
Turkish flight arrows fall into several classes depending on their construction, fletching, and the kind of competition they were intended for. There are also several classes of practice arrows for developing your technique.
Originally, flight arrows were normal length arrows that had been lightened by barrelling and the reduction of tip weight. Subsequently, these specialist techniques were adapted to shorter arrows for use in an arrow guide. Later, with the development of the bilek siperi or wrist-shield type of siper, arrows of about 24.5 inches were standardised as normal flight arrows. Despite what some western writers have written, this was not a fixed standard and I have original Turkish flight arrows that vary from it.
Originally flight arrows were constructed of reed. Later a process of gluing together strips of reed was developed to make a stiff arrow with a very small diameter. In the beginning, strips split for a large type of reed growing around the Mediterranean could have been used. Alan Case uses bamboo and this works very well. To maintain strength while not damaging the surface of the reed or bamboo, it was shaved down on the inside to create the two tapers for the barrelled shape of the final arrow. The pieces were glued together around a thread or piece of wire. When the glue set this was removed and the arrow was left with a hollow core. A separate point of ivory and a wooden nock were glued on. The shaft was smoothed and polished. Alan Case's arrows for example are so well made that you need to get very close or use a magnifying glass to see the glue lines. Usually six, eight or twelve strips were used.
Later high quality arrows were made from coniferous woods. A piece was shaved down to the barrelled shape, two pieces of bakam, which is called brazil wood in English, were glued on one end to form the sides of the nock. A very small ivory tip was glued on the other. The form of the barrelling was determined by which parts were thickest relative to the physical centre of the arrow. This changed the centre of balance and the rate of tipping of the arrow relative to the parabola of its flight.
The tip end of the arrow was fragile and subject to much stress when it hit the ground so some times it was severely damaged. In order to repair the arrow, the damaged portion was sliced off with a diagonal cut. A new piece with a matching cut was glued on and the arrow was reshaped and a new point was added. I have arrows where this was done two or three times.
Some arrows were named pişrev and they were the top class of flight arrow with small fletching of feathers or parchment, a bakam nock and an ivory or bone conical tip. The nock was bound with very fine sinew in glue to stop splitting.
Another type of flight arrow was called karabatak after the cormorant feathers that were used to fletch it.
There was a separate type of distance competition for the azm?yiş arrow which had a more slender body than a flight arrow and also a small metal point. Its feathers were a little longer and very low.
The design criteria for flight arrows were:
- 1. Make them as light as possible while retaining the desired strength necessary to resist the power of the bow.
2. Reduce their frictional drag to a minimum by decreasing their diameter, smoothing their surface and reducing the size of their feathers.
3. Change their centre of balance to cause them to tip more slowly than the normal tangent to the parabola of their trajectory. This made them travel slightly point up and helped them to glide a few meters farther at the end of their flight.
What was done to alter the balance was to drill a small axial hole in the base of the nock and fill it with lead. In very old competitions where the archers used the same bow and arrow, a cheat would remove the lead to change the balance and weight of the arrow giving himself an advantage. Holes were some times drilled transversally near the nock. When the cheat shot, he filled the hole with wax which decreased the drag caused by the open hole.
On other parts of this site there are references to flight arrows and details of Turkish construction show with photographs of original arrows.
Hope this helped.
Bede, you surprise me with your knowledge everyday. You really should think about writing a book to share part of it.
Very interesting stuff.
Very interesting stuff.
Interesting post!
Bede, how long is the diagonal cut on the repaired arrows that you have got? I was slightly surpriced that it was only one cut, and not two - like a footing.
By the way, what distances have you achieved with what kind of equipment, Bede?
I've been making most of my arrows from the highest avaliable spine 11/32" spruce shafts. I used to fix them in a drill and do the final shape with sandpaper. That's no good idea though, as it is too easy to overstress the wood and reduce the spine. Hand planing and sanding manually against a flat surface seems to be the best method.
Polishing the shaft to a mirror shine and placing the fletching perfectly along the shaft is something that there is much to gain on.
Making lots of arrows and testing them, and then copying the best arrow, test a few, and then make some more, is usually what works best :)
Bede, how long is the diagonal cut on the repaired arrows that you have got? I was slightly surpriced that it was only one cut, and not two - like a footing.
By the way, what distances have you achieved with what kind of equipment, Bede?
I've been making most of my arrows from the highest avaliable spine 11/32" spruce shafts. I used to fix them in a drill and do the final shape with sandpaper. That's no good idea though, as it is too easy to overstress the wood and reduce the spine. Hand planing and sanding manually against a flat surface seems to be the best method.
Polishing the shaft to a mirror shine and placing the fletching perfectly along the shaft is something that there is much to gain on.
Making lots of arrows and testing them, and then copying the best arrow, test a few, and then make some more, is usually what works best :)
Kviljo, how do you polish your shafts? Is that necessary?
For those who are interested, I am writing a book specifically on the thumb draw, the various techniques and how to optimise thumb ring design.
I have found that smoothing the arrows, it is better to rotate them by hand. It doesn't take that long and you have much more control. You use the standard approach of starting with coarser abrasives and work you way to finer ones. I find steel wool useful as well. Some wood turners' finishes can be applied by hand if you rub hard enough to make the shaft hot to the touch. These finishes sink into the wood and form a smooth hard surface.
I too was initially sceptical about the utility of the single point splice even though I had original Turkish arrows that had been successfully repaired in their usable lifetime. Dr Grayson demonstrated the technique to me with two pieces of bamboo which he joined in such a way that the channel through the bamboo was as clean and smooth as the outside. I videoed this and studied what he did so that the next time I had a broken arrow I could replicate the process. An arrow of mine that tapered towards the tip broke at practice one day and I repaired it with a diagonal splice. This happened about 16 months ago and it is still straight and shooting accurately. I made it so the splice sloped up from the nock end to the tip. This was so that, if the glue joint failed, the arrow would break with the rear part going upwards and not impale my hand.
I will get out some arrows and measure the joints. The terminal diameter, just before the point, is about 1/8th of an inch. The real surprise about this type of arrow is that it survived the impact with the ground.
I am afraid my flight shooting has not been very spectacular. I have shot with a modern American flatbow, a modern Korean traditional bow, a Karpowicz Korean/Turkish hybrid made from wood horn and sinew, and a Karpowicz Turkish hunting bow. With the hybrid bow, I generally shot with an arrow guide and short arrows. I used the Turkish bow with a siper and bamboo flight arrows.
The American flatbow was shot unofficially as a guest at the Flight Archery Tournament at Bonneville Flats on the Great Salt Lake in Utah. I was nine yards short of the then world record. The next year the world record was significantly increase by an Italian colleague. My distance was about 316 yards with a 50 pound bow.
With the Korean/Turkish hybrid, I shot with a majra and 14 inch arrows in the regular flight competition against modern bows. I think most of the distances are recorded in the NFAA results on the web. They were impressive only compared to the traditional bows. They were pathetic compared to the modern bows I competed against. Since I was using my target darts rather than flight darts I wasn't too depressed. The bow was used in the 25 kilo class. Last year, I used my Turkish flight arrows with the guide. Taybugha has a story about longer guide arrows being used for flight. Because of the length of draw, my arrows fell into the sub four inch overdraw category. I could use this combination of equipment in the Primitive Complex Composite class because the overdraw was four inches or less. This combination performed rather well and I will make some dedicated flight arrows for this set up if the bow can be straightened.
With the large Turkish bow, my physical weakness combined with the requirement to use a siper meant that I never really got to full draw. The bow was 80 pounds in Sydney, but it felt heavier in the low humidity of Utah. However, I took the opportunity to experiment with gut and linen strings. The experiment I persuaded Jaap Koppedrayer to do by comparing the distance and arrow was shot with and without a siper suggests the extra draw the siper permits adds almost 50 yards to the distance. Jaap was shooting with a bow half the weight of mine and was beating me easily. His bow was designed for flight. Adam had told me his bow was only a hunting bow and would never perform well as a flight bow. I did try it in the regular broadhead flight competition against modern bows. It was not too bad.
The modern Korean traditional bow was used in regular broadhead flight. It performed creditably, but I used a shorter 28 inch draw and it was not fully stressed. Either bow used for its intended purpose would have been a good hunting bow with a surprisingly flat cast.
That is the history of my flight adventure. So far there have been no world records, but I am having a lot of fun. The advantage of the flight competition is the use of laser distance measurement and experienced judges. The true pleasure, apart from the actually shooting which is wonderful, is talking to people who know more about bow and arrow design than I thought possible.
The discipline of flight shooting under these conditions is that if you get a record, the criteria are clearly defined. If someone competes against you in a traditional class they are using all traditional equipment. If you want to test combinations of ancient and modern materials, you can do it in the regular flight competitions. Then you try to beat that in the traditional section with fully traditional gear. I had a lot of trouble with strings. Linen behaves strangely in low humidity and I had quite a few strings disintegrate on shooting. When Jaap and I were practising in Georgia last year all the strings worked perfectly in the high humidity, but in Utah some of the strings I made for Jaap failed despite being shot in. My gut string seemed unaffected. Perhaps the highly stressed reflexed Turkish bow removed any residual stretch in the gut. I am moving on to silk strings.
My advice about flight shooting is to go in normal flight competitions, study the rules to maximise your strengths and practise as much as you can before you get there. Because of the introduction of traditional classes, flight shooting has become re-energised for those of us interested in old techniques. for archers, seeing others shoot in these extreme conditions is an education. I am still in awe of Marlon Torres shooting 150+ pound long bows and have real respect for the makers of the many traditional bows I have seen.
I have found that smoothing the arrows, it is better to rotate them by hand. It doesn't take that long and you have much more control. You use the standard approach of starting with coarser abrasives and work you way to finer ones. I find steel wool useful as well. Some wood turners' finishes can be applied by hand if you rub hard enough to make the shaft hot to the touch. These finishes sink into the wood and form a smooth hard surface.
I too was initially sceptical about the utility of the single point splice even though I had original Turkish arrows that had been successfully repaired in their usable lifetime. Dr Grayson demonstrated the technique to me with two pieces of bamboo which he joined in such a way that the channel through the bamboo was as clean and smooth as the outside. I videoed this and studied what he did so that the next time I had a broken arrow I could replicate the process. An arrow of mine that tapered towards the tip broke at practice one day and I repaired it with a diagonal splice. This happened about 16 months ago and it is still straight and shooting accurately. I made it so the splice sloped up from the nock end to the tip. This was so that, if the glue joint failed, the arrow would break with the rear part going upwards and not impale my hand.
I will get out some arrows and measure the joints. The terminal diameter, just before the point, is about 1/8th of an inch. The real surprise about this type of arrow is that it survived the impact with the ground.
I am afraid my flight shooting has not been very spectacular. I have shot with a modern American flatbow, a modern Korean traditional bow, a Karpowicz Korean/Turkish hybrid made from wood horn and sinew, and a Karpowicz Turkish hunting bow. With the hybrid bow, I generally shot with an arrow guide and short arrows. I used the Turkish bow with a siper and bamboo flight arrows.
The American flatbow was shot unofficially as a guest at the Flight Archery Tournament at Bonneville Flats on the Great Salt Lake in Utah. I was nine yards short of the then world record. The next year the world record was significantly increase by an Italian colleague. My distance was about 316 yards with a 50 pound bow.
With the Korean/Turkish hybrid, I shot with a majra and 14 inch arrows in the regular flight competition against modern bows. I think most of the distances are recorded in the NFAA results on the web. They were impressive only compared to the traditional bows. They were pathetic compared to the modern bows I competed against. Since I was using my target darts rather than flight darts I wasn't too depressed. The bow was used in the 25 kilo class. Last year, I used my Turkish flight arrows with the guide. Taybugha has a story about longer guide arrows being used for flight. Because of the length of draw, my arrows fell into the sub four inch overdraw category. I could use this combination of equipment in the Primitive Complex Composite class because the overdraw was four inches or less. This combination performed rather well and I will make some dedicated flight arrows for this set up if the bow can be straightened.
With the large Turkish bow, my physical weakness combined with the requirement to use a siper meant that I never really got to full draw. The bow was 80 pounds in Sydney, but it felt heavier in the low humidity of Utah. However, I took the opportunity to experiment with gut and linen strings. The experiment I persuaded Jaap Koppedrayer to do by comparing the distance and arrow was shot with and without a siper suggests the extra draw the siper permits adds almost 50 yards to the distance. Jaap was shooting with a bow half the weight of mine and was beating me easily. His bow was designed for flight. Adam had told me his bow was only a hunting bow and would never perform well as a flight bow. I did try it in the regular broadhead flight competition against modern bows. It was not too bad.
The modern Korean traditional bow was used in regular broadhead flight. It performed creditably, but I used a shorter 28 inch draw and it was not fully stressed. Either bow used for its intended purpose would have been a good hunting bow with a surprisingly flat cast.
That is the history of my flight adventure. So far there have been no world records, but I am having a lot of fun. The advantage of the flight competition is the use of laser distance measurement and experienced judges. The true pleasure, apart from the actually shooting which is wonderful, is talking to people who know more about bow and arrow design than I thought possible.
The discipline of flight shooting under these conditions is that if you get a record, the criteria are clearly defined. If someone competes against you in a traditional class they are using all traditional equipment. If you want to test combinations of ancient and modern materials, you can do it in the regular flight competitions. Then you try to beat that in the traditional section with fully traditional gear. I had a lot of trouble with strings. Linen behaves strangely in low humidity and I had quite a few strings disintegrate on shooting. When Jaap and I were practising in Georgia last year all the strings worked perfectly in the high humidity, but in Utah some of the strings I made for Jaap failed despite being shot in. My gut string seemed unaffected. Perhaps the highly stressed reflexed Turkish bow removed any residual stretch in the gut. I am moving on to silk strings.
My advice about flight shooting is to go in normal flight competitions, study the rules to maximise your strengths and practise as much as you can before you get there. Because of the introduction of traditional classes, flight shooting has become re-energised for those of us interested in old techniques. for archers, seeing others shoot in these extreme conditions is an education. I am still in awe of Marlon Torres shooting 150+ pound long bows and have real respect for the makers of the many traditional bows I have seen.
Bede, thanx so much for this great reply. This is the greatest reply I ever got in a forum. This is much more than a reply, I guess flightshooting is your passion.
I?m sorry for being late with my reply, but bow-class season has begun and so I was very busy with some bowery- beginners.
Alan Case is just posting his build- along of the Turkish- style "composite- arrows" made of small slats of bamboo at the PALEOPLANET. That?s so amazing. I?ve just begun to make my first flight- arrow- trials and errors too.
Simple ones, I?ve barreled shafts and fletched them with very tiny feathers.
I?ve also tried to do shafts according the measurements of Osmanian flight- arrows only by using hand- tools, next one was a laminated shaft, made of bamboo and cedar. Next one will be one of the Osmanian hollow shafts according to your posting.
Next week I?ll post a build- along in my blog.
I?ve several times read that the point of gravity has to be at 47% of the shafts length from the nock?
I know there are good and bad performing flight- arrows, but could you tell how much further a good flight- arrow would fly than a normal arrow shot by the same bow?
This thing is attracting me more and more!
KenH, yoiu?re right, there are not to much flight- archers around, but soon there?ll be one more.
Michael
I?m sorry for being late with my reply, but bow-class season has begun and so I was very busy with some bowery- beginners.
Alan Case is just posting his build- along of the Turkish- style "composite- arrows" made of small slats of bamboo at the PALEOPLANET. That?s so amazing. I?ve just begun to make my first flight- arrow- trials and errors too.
Simple ones, I?ve barreled shafts and fletched them with very tiny feathers.
I?ve also tried to do shafts according the measurements of Osmanian flight- arrows only by using hand- tools, next one was a laminated shaft, made of bamboo and cedar. Next one will be one of the Osmanian hollow shafts according to your posting.
Next week I?ll post a build- along in my blog.
I?ve several times read that the point of gravity has to be at 47% of the shafts length from the nock?
I know there are good and bad performing flight- arrows, but could you tell how much further a good flight- arrow would fly than a normal arrow shot by the same bow?
This thing is attracting me more and more!
KenH, yoiu?re right, there are not to much flight- archers around, but soon there?ll be one more.
Michael
Some flight archers I know suggested that the extra distance could be as much as 20 metres, but it is variable depending on the bow and the arrow. Some basic tests were published in Archery the Technical Side, but they were with heavy arrows and light bows and they were designed to test arrow matching to the bow, not flight efficiency.
A hollow metal arrow was fitted with an adjustable and moveable internal weight. The same thing could be done with a wooden arrow with an axial hole at each end. You could vary the centre of balance by moving small pieces of metal from one end to the other while keeping the arrow mass constant.
A hollow metal arrow was fitted with an adjustable and moveable internal weight. The same thing could be done with a wooden arrow with an axial hole at each end. You could vary the centre of balance by moving small pieces of metal from one end to the other while keeping the arrow mass constant.