fish bladder glue
I have a friend that lives near the coast, whose favorite pastime is fishing, thus I think I may have found a source of free fish air bladders. The problem is, I only see him a couple of times a year, raising the issue of preservation. The climate where he lives is particularly damp at this time of year, so drying them might be an issue.
This may sound ridiculous, but will freezing the bladders ruin them? Similar to water expanding into ice crystals and destroying the cells within a piece of fruit upon freezing, will this treatment destroy the proteins within the air bladders and render the substance useless? Or should I have him salt them, and then just rinse them out thoroughly to remove the salt when I want to use them?
I know my query may seem a little overcautious, but I want to be sure that my resources aren?t ruined before I even start. I think there may be enough ruining once construction starts!!
Also, has anyone used rawhide dog chews or the dried pigs ears used for the same purpose to make glue?
Cheers,
Dave in Oz
This may sound ridiculous, but will freezing the bladders ruin them? Similar to water expanding into ice crystals and destroying the cells within a piece of fruit upon freezing, will this treatment destroy the proteins within the air bladders and render the substance useless? Or should I have him salt them, and then just rinse them out thoroughly to remove the salt when I want to use them?
I know my query may seem a little overcautious, but I want to be sure that my resources aren?t ruined before I even start. I think there may be enough ruining once construction starts!!
Also, has anyone used rawhide dog chews or the dried pigs ears used for the same purpose to make glue?
Cheers,
Dave in Oz
Freezing should be no problem: boiling the glue decomposes the cell structure anyway.
What you do need to avoid is excess salt. If the glue is salty, then when it cools and dries the salt will crystallize and reduce the strength of the bond. In addition, excess salt will raise the boiling point of the glue and may cause over-cooking.
Fresh bladders - even of sea fish - would not be very salty. You should not add any salt to preserve them, though.
S.
What you do need to avoid is excess salt. If the glue is salty, then when it cools and dries the salt will crystallize and reduce the strength of the bond. In addition, excess salt will raise the boiling point of the glue and may cause over-cooking.
Fresh bladders - even of sea fish - would not be very salty. You should not add any salt to preserve them, though.
S.
The Korean bowyers dry them.
T
T
Dave,
There is a simpler solution to making fish glue. You can buy the dried fish bits in Asian grocery stores in Australia. An acquaintance of mine who made violins gave me a recipe, which is esentially the same as the Tradition Bowyer's Bible one. Several people have made glue and it has been tested as just below the strength of hide glue and more than adequate for bow making. The stuff is cheap and if you have too much you can make fish soup out of it. I think one of the names translates as big fish lips.
There is a simpler solution to making fish glue. You can buy the dried fish bits in Asian grocery stores in Australia. An acquaintance of mine who made violins gave me a recipe, which is esentially the same as the Tradition Bowyer's Bible one. Several people have made glue and it has been tested as just below the strength of hide glue and more than adequate for bow making. The stuff is cheap and if you have too much you can make fish soup out of it. I think one of the names translates as big fish lips.
I would be careful with the bladders from a grocery store. The bladders can be heat - dried which destroys the collagen. Glue made of these will be very weak.
Freezing does nothing to bladders, I used frozen ones several times. I also freeze my glue all the time.
Adam
Freezing does nothing to bladders, I used frozen ones several times. I also freeze my glue all the time.
Adam
adam
i has do once the freezing the bladder glue, a singularity(freak) things hapen, i can got a lot ice,has no glue in the ice, what skil you has shered and where we can used this capability of bladder glue :D
i has do once the freezing the bladder glue, a singularity(freak) things hapen, i can got a lot ice,has no glue in the ice, what skil you has shered and where we can used this capability of bladder glue :D
In reply to Adam's comment, I suggest you test each batch. The people I know who have tried the product in Australia haven't had any weak batches of glue, but it could happen and it is a valid concern.
One of the best fishbladder glues is made, according to what I know, from sturgeons bladder. It isn't quiet cheap but I think its best for bow making
purposes. It goes under the name of Hausenblase or Issinglass of which
the latter is more purified and therefore more expensive.
Greetings & Salaam
purposes. It goes under the name of Hausenblase or Issinglass of which
the latter is more purified and therefore more expensive.
Greetings & Salaam
Alam,
Which fish glue is best is fairly subjective. It all depends upon a point of view; most NE Asian bowyers will only use croaker air bladders. Also, you use what's available.
T
Which fish glue is best is fairly subjective. It all depends upon a point of view; most NE Asian bowyers will only use croaker air bladders. Also, you use what's available.
T
Thomas,
It is true what you say. I mentioned this sturgeon glue from a turkish point of view. I know about the availiability of fried croaker fish bladder in Asia stores.(Fish maw) That is probably unusable for bow making. Do you have any idea of where to obtain proper unfried croaker fish bladder? Could prove to be a cheaper alternative(perhaps).
Greetings
It is true what you say. I mentioned this sturgeon glue from a turkish point of view. I know about the availiability of fried croaker fish bladder in Asia stores.(Fish maw) That is probably unusable for bow making. Do you have any idea of where to obtain proper unfried croaker fish bladder? Could prove to be a cheaper alternative(perhaps).
Greetings
I am working on a source here in Korea. Hopefully, if all goes well, I should get to it sometime this fall.
T
T
Regarding fish glue:
Fish glue has a long tradition in Norway and is almost always from freshwater fish. For instance the Saami people create their glue from perch bladders for their composite birch bows. They also say that you can create high quality glue from the skin of north-atlantic salmon. One important point in the making of such glues that I haven?t seen elsewhere on forums is that it is preferable to soak and boil the bladders in slightly acidic (but not too acidic) water to better disolve the proteins.
Fish glue has a long tradition in Norway and is almost always from freshwater fish. For instance the Saami people create their glue from perch bladders for their composite birch bows. They also say that you can create high quality glue from the skin of north-atlantic salmon. One important point in the making of such glues that I haven?t seen elsewhere on forums is that it is preferable to soak and boil the bladders in slightly acidic (but not too acidic) water to better disolve the proteins.
Yerven:
That is quiet interesting what you said about the acidity of water.........
Another interesting topic you've mentioned is the Saami composite
bow. Can you tell me some more about it? Have you got pictures?
Greetings & Salaam
That is quiet interesting what you said about the acidity of water.........
Another interesting topic you've mentioned is the Saami composite
bow. Can you tell me some more about it? Have you got pictures?
Greetings & Salaam
There is a good reason why freshwater fish bladders are preferable for composite bows. The glues should have the ability to gell once applied. This is especially important in sinewing. If the glue does not gel, the sinew may pull up from the core as it dries, since the liquid glue will not hold it down. A non-gelling glue requires wrapping when the sinew dries, but this was not done by the ancients.
Generally, the freshwater fish bladder glue, as well as all kinds of hide/skin glues gel, depending on the ambient temperature. The higher the temperature, the more important it is to have a fast gelling glue. The fastest gelling are good skin glues and gelatine. I belive this was the reason why it is recommended in old texts that a skin glue should be used in hot climates.
The salt water fish glue does not usually gell so easily, especially so the types made of bladders from fish living in very cold water. These glues are suitable for use on selfbows, but not on the much reflexed composites. In experimenting with glues, one should test it's gelling properties first. A glue made of salt water fish skins does not gell at all in the normal range of temperatures.
As to the acids in making glues: in commercial operations, the skins or bones are first soaked in weak acids (or sometimes in alkali) to break down the collagen molecules, then the acid is removed by neutralizing it and washing in clean water before boiling. This increases the yield, but I found this step is a waste of time when you make the glue at home.
Adam
Generally, the freshwater fish bladder glue, as well as all kinds of hide/skin glues gel, depending on the ambient temperature. The higher the temperature, the more important it is to have a fast gelling glue. The fastest gelling are good skin glues and gelatine. I belive this was the reason why it is recommended in old texts that a skin glue should be used in hot climates.
The salt water fish glue does not usually gell so easily, especially so the types made of bladders from fish living in very cold water. These glues are suitable for use on selfbows, but not on the much reflexed composites. In experimenting with glues, one should test it's gelling properties first. A glue made of salt water fish skins does not gell at all in the normal range of temperatures.
As to the acids in making glues: in commercial operations, the skins or bones are first soaked in weak acids (or sometimes in alkali) to break down the collagen molecules, then the acid is removed by neutralizing it and washing in clean water before boiling. This increases the yield, but I found this step is a waste of time when you make the glue at home.
Adam
Alam ed Din:
Thank you for your interest. I am quite new to bows so my detail knowledge is unfortunately limited about the Saami composites. What I can tell you is that the Saami people are of asian origin and lived (and live) in the northern scandinavian as well as russian regions, living as reindeer herders and hunter-gatherers. Due to the limited materials in a northern tundra and taiga climate they used different strains of birch on a "take what you get, use what you have" basis. The quality and tensile properties of birch varies with the strain (mountain birch, dwarf birch, hanging birch etc...) as well as where they grow, making up the different layers of a composite bow. Birch is also thought to be one of the most elastic and very strong in streching of the northern wood types. Whether they utilized the very high quality and lean tendons of reindeer and elk and wether they are any useful in bow making I don't know yet. I doubt the "horns" of these anymals are any useful because of their very fast growing every year before mating season and then fall off.
Anyway, I want to research this more and I have found a researcher who has a special interest in asian horn bows and he has supposedly made several saami bows himself. Please be patient as I have to repair my roof before winter and also going to national military service soon. Wish I had more time...I will do my best.
Greetings
Yerven
Thank you for your interest. I am quite new to bows so my detail knowledge is unfortunately limited about the Saami composites. What I can tell you is that the Saami people are of asian origin and lived (and live) in the northern scandinavian as well as russian regions, living as reindeer herders and hunter-gatherers. Due to the limited materials in a northern tundra and taiga climate they used different strains of birch on a "take what you get, use what you have" basis. The quality and tensile properties of birch varies with the strain (mountain birch, dwarf birch, hanging birch etc...) as well as where they grow, making up the different layers of a composite bow. Birch is also thought to be one of the most elastic and very strong in streching of the northern wood types. Whether they utilized the very high quality and lean tendons of reindeer and elk and wether they are any useful in bow making I don't know yet. I doubt the "horns" of these anymals are any useful because of their very fast growing every year before mating season and then fall off.
Anyway, I want to research this more and I have found a researcher who has a special interest in asian horn bows and he has supposedly made several saami bows himself. Please be patient as I have to repair my roof before winter and also going to national military service soon. Wish I had more time...I will do my best.
Greetings
Yerven
Adam, merhaba
I heard of some people who do wrapping with inner tube on their bows. I always thought they are doing this to get a smoother surface after sinewing.Your explanation was very informative. Recently I have sampled with different kind of hide glues and I found that rabbit glue gells the fastest (within seconds) Next I will sample with fish bladder glues. But maybe you can give me a hint here: I found an Egyptian company that produces fish maw for the Asian market. You can see a link to their homepage under the topic: "fishbladder from other species" They offer it at 135$ US a kg. I wanted to find out how it was processed, in particular how it was being dried and whether they've used external heat (like hot sand/deepfrying.....etc) on it. So far I haven't received any answer from them......The fish species is the nile perch from lake Nasser in southern Egypt. If it is simply air dried, I am willing to order a sample from them. Another thing I wanted to ask you is: is it good to mix fish bladder glue with other glues, such as hide glue or tendon glue? If yes, can you explain this in more detail? (in Turkey the ancients used tendon glue but I am not sure if they had mixed it with sturgeon mouths glue... )
If they had mixed the two glues, why was this being done?
Greetings & Salaam
I heard of some people who do wrapping with inner tube on their bows. I always thought they are doing this to get a smoother surface after sinewing.Your explanation was very informative. Recently I have sampled with different kind of hide glues and I found that rabbit glue gells the fastest (within seconds) Next I will sample with fish bladder glues. But maybe you can give me a hint here: I found an Egyptian company that produces fish maw for the Asian market. You can see a link to their homepage under the topic: "fishbladder from other species" They offer it at 135$ US a kg. I wanted to find out how it was processed, in particular how it was being dried and whether they've used external heat (like hot sand/deepfrying.....etc) on it. So far I haven't received any answer from them......The fish species is the nile perch from lake Nasser in southern Egypt. If it is simply air dried, I am willing to order a sample from them. Another thing I wanted to ask you is: is it good to mix fish bladder glue with other glues, such as hide glue or tendon glue? If yes, can you explain this in more detail? (in Turkey the ancients used tendon glue but I am not sure if they had mixed it with sturgeon mouths glue... )
If they had mixed the two glues, why was this being done?
Greetings & Salaam
Yerven
Good luck with your roof. I have been amongst the Scandinavian Saami people in Finnland. The Fins usually refer to them as " Lapp ".
They are very good craftsmen, in particular they make very good knifes(with a handle from birch), so I am curious how their composite bows might have been. It may be, that even the Finns, who are somewhat related to the Saami, may have used the composite bow at a time......
What about the Yakut people, as far as I know, they keep sturdy horses and are a turkic people. Do or did they use the composite bow like the Buryat
people did? I read, the Yakuts where living further south ages ago......
Greetings & Salaam
Good luck with your roof. I have been amongst the Scandinavian Saami people in Finnland. The Fins usually refer to them as " Lapp ".
They are very good craftsmen, in particular they make very good knifes(with a handle from birch), so I am curious how their composite bows might have been. It may be, that even the Finns, who are somewhat related to the Saami, may have used the composite bow at a time......
What about the Yakut people, as far as I know, they keep sturdy horses and are a turkic people. Do or did they use the composite bow like the Buryat
people did? I read, the Yakuts where living further south ages ago......
Greetings & Salaam
Adnan:
The glue should gel, but not necessarily fast. You need enough time to do your work on the bow when the glue is still liquid. The time to gel depends on the ambient temperature - in the cold room most glues will gel faster, in hor weather only a few (such as your rabbit skin or gelatine). You can adjust the gelling properties by mixing a slow gelling glue (such as the bladder glue) with a fast gelling glue. It is perfectly ok to mix the glues. Also, a glue that gels will be stiffer when dry, but that is not too important in the case of sinewing, maybe to some extent with horn.
Your perch bladder glue may be ok, but it is difficult to say without testing. The bladders should at leats be tough and never brittle when dry. It should be difficult or impossible to break a big bladder.
Turkish bowyers used tendon glue and tendon glue with a fish glue. I have not been able to find the palate glue yet and used the bladder glues as the substitute.
Adam
The glue should gel, but not necessarily fast. You need enough time to do your work on the bow when the glue is still liquid. The time to gel depends on the ambient temperature - in the cold room most glues will gel faster, in hor weather only a few (such as your rabbit skin or gelatine). You can adjust the gelling properties by mixing a slow gelling glue (such as the bladder glue) with a fast gelling glue. It is perfectly ok to mix the glues. Also, a glue that gels will be stiffer when dry, but that is not too important in the case of sinewing, maybe to some extent with horn.
Your perch bladder glue may be ok, but it is difficult to say without testing. The bladders should at leats be tough and never brittle when dry. It should be difficult or impossible to break a big bladder.
Turkish bowyers used tendon glue and tendon glue with a fish glue. I have not been able to find the palate glue yet and used the bladder glues as the substitute.
Adam
Thank you, Adam
How is tendon glue prepared? Can one use cheaper tendon bits
in the preparation of tendon glue? What should be the quality of sinew used
for glue making? And how does sinew/tendon glue differ in its gelling or
addhesive quality from other glues(there must be a reason why turkish bowyers preferred it)? Is it prepared from fresh or dried sinew......
Greetings & Salaam
How is tendon glue prepared? Can one use cheaper tendon bits
in the preparation of tendon glue? What should be the quality of sinew used
for glue making? And how does sinew/tendon glue differ in its gelling or
addhesive quality from other glues(there must be a reason why turkish bowyers preferred it)? Is it prepared from fresh or dried sinew......
Greetings & Salaam
Adnan:
I make tendon glue from waste fibres and pieces after shredding. Solid tendons should be pounded to separate the fibres. The sinew is first soaked in cold water for at least 24 hours, then heated in a double boiler (never boiled) for a couple of days. All grease is skimmed off the surface. The soup is then straned and evaporated until the concentration of glue is about 30%. I store such glue in a freezer, but it can be gelled then cut into strips to dry.
I have not been able to determine why this glue is better than skin glue. It is whiter in colour though and I do not want to waste the scraps of sinew. It can be made also from fresh tendons, the yield may even be higher, since the collagen is swollen to a greated degree.
Adam
I make tendon glue from waste fibres and pieces after shredding. Solid tendons should be pounded to separate the fibres. The sinew is first soaked in cold water for at least 24 hours, then heated in a double boiler (never boiled) for a couple of days. All grease is skimmed off the surface. The soup is then straned and evaporated until the concentration of glue is about 30%. I store such glue in a freezer, but it can be gelled then cut into strips to dry.
I have not been able to determine why this glue is better than skin glue. It is whiter in colour though and I do not want to waste the scraps of sinew. It can be made also from fresh tendons, the yield may even be higher, since the collagen is swollen to a greated degree.
Adam
Adam, merhaba
Thank you for this essential instruction on tendon glue preparation. :idea:
Greetings & Salaam
Thank you for this essential instruction on tendon glue preparation. :idea:
Greetings & Salaam
Adam, if I was going to use a rawhide dog-chew to make glue, how much would I need? ie: is there a yeild ratio of rawhide:glue?
Thanks,
Dave in oz
Thanks,
Dave in oz
Dave:
I has been a long time since I made glue fro rawhide. I found it is more economical to buy a ready made skin/hide glue, it does not smell, nd the quality is better. You can expect about 50% yield and make sure the rawhide is fully swollen in water and cut into small pieces before heating. And make sure you skim off the grease.
Adam
I has been a long time since I made glue fro rawhide. I found it is more economical to buy a ready made skin/hide glue, it does not smell, nd the quality is better. You can expect about 50% yield and make sure the rawhide is fully swollen in water and cut into small pieces before heating. And make sure you skim off the grease.
Adam