All Wood Asian Style Bow
I thought you might like to see my first attempt at an Asian style bow using all wood - six woods in fact. The limbs are Red Oak backed with Maple, the siyahs are laminated Walnut and Ash, The handle is built up with Red Elm, and the bridges are Birch dowel. 40-45# @ 28" (I'm not into heavy draw weights).
58" TtT along the back - 56" in a straight line
56" NtN along the back - 53" in a straight line
17.5" Working Limbs 1" wide
6" Handle
3/8" thick laminated Siyahs 3.25" along the limb, 4.5" from angle to tip
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58" TtT along the back - 56" in a straight line
56" NtN along the back - 53" in a straight line
17.5" Working Limbs 1" wide
6" Handle
3/8" thick laminated Siyahs 3.25" along the limb, 4.5" from angle to tip
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![[external image]](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b282/kenhulme/AsianFullDraw.jpg){kind=link}
Great piece of work and thank for posting it.could you please send more pics and a small explanation about this kind of bow!
Well done! Yes, more pics please!
Can it be pulled any further?
I am a big fan of wooden Asian bows, I think if they are done properly they can look amazing :-)
Can it be pulled any further?
I am a big fan of wooden Asian bows, I think if they are done properly they can look amazing :-)
Only various kinds of woods and Titebond II glue were used.
Close up Details:
I used a standard 1/4" thick x 1-1/2" wide Red Oak board from a Home Improvement store as the core and 1/8" thick quartersawn Maple in two short pieces as the back. After the back and belly were laminated together, I reduced the width to 1". The siyahs are laminated from three pieces of thin wood (Walnut and Ash), for strength. Then belly and back handle pieces were added. I glued dowels through the handle for added stiffness. The string bridges are 5/8" diameter dowel.
Could I get a longer draw as the bow is? Maybe another inch. I like lighter bows and am happy with 28" draw. If you have a longer draw you could make the bow just a bit longer.
Could I get a longer draw as the bow is? Maybe another inch. I like lighter bows and am happy with 28" draw. If you have a longer draw you could make the bow just a bit longer.
Ken-Not only are you a great Chef-you are a great bowyer. That bow looks great!!! Bravo!!!
Nice Bow.
I hope your haggis is half as good as the bow.
I hope your haggis is half as good as the bow.
Hi
I like your idea really much...
I have a couple questions for you
1 - Is the oak working in pure compression...I have a small doubt about it and I just dont find a simple way to check this except in a lab with some complicated equipment and formulae.
2 - What is the underlying aim in the syahs part of the core...that cross section might fail...is to reduce syahs size and gain in speed...
3 - why no reflex
Thanks; I might as well try to replicate so,ething similar
I like your idea really much...
I have a couple questions for you
1 - Is the oak working in pure compression...I have a small doubt about it and I just dont find a simple way to check this except in a lab with some complicated equipment and formulae.
2 - What is the underlying aim in the syahs part of the core...that cross section might fail...is to reduce syahs size and gain in speed...
3 - why no reflex
Thanks; I might as well try to replicate so,ething similar
Ken,
I like it very much. I just planed to work on replica on some bows from serbian frescoes and since it would be pretty expensive to do experiment with horn i decided to start with ''two wood'' bows and your work gave me a courage. Though i will be using big reflex of the limbs as it is in e.g. Crimean Tatar and also layers of sinew and birch bark. I am curious will it work with reflexed limbs (want to get ''triple'' curved bow :? ).
Anyway, i like your and Kviljo's ''all wood'' bows. I would be pleased if i could get 45lb at 28''. Keep on working.
Best regards,
Zoran
p.s. why didn't you add sinew?
I like it very much. I just planed to work on replica on some bows from serbian frescoes and since it would be pretty expensive to do experiment with horn i decided to start with ''two wood'' bows and your work gave me a courage. Though i will be using big reflex of the limbs as it is in e.g. Crimean Tatar and also layers of sinew and birch bark. I am curious will it work with reflexed limbs (want to get ''triple'' curved bow :? ).
Anyway, i like your and Kviljo's ''all wood'' bows. I would be pleased if i could get 45lb at 28''. Keep on working.
Best regards,
Zoran
p.s. why didn't you add sinew?
Thank you for more pics.
Are all wood bows a new replica or its an old one and if it is where thhey use it?
Are all wood bows a new replica or its an old one and if it is where thhey use it?
Thansk for all the nice comments, guys...
JBL - that's high praise, now I've gotta live up to it! :shock:
Bothyman - Ma haggis is at least as gud as thet bow! Tha haird part is gettin' sheep's stomachs in America - the FDA does not approve. :roll:
Outlaw - I don't know much about compression in bows... but I would think the Oak is totally in compression. I'm not sure I understand your second question... Laminated siyahs are stiffer with less thickness of wood. Yes I could wrap and saturate the area where the siyah and limb meet with glue. But I like to see the wood, and will only do that if the existing joint fails. Why no reflex? I wanted to see what would happen without reflex first.
Zoran - this technique should work with reflex as well. You could make a reflex handle and glue the core and backing around it. Why no sinew? I'm a chef not a butcher... I don't have any dead animal parts laying about!! I enjoy woodworking - I also make musical instruments - and I wanted to see what could be done with only wood.
Hcspng - Stephen said in an old ATARN post about a bamboo slat bow with siyahs that in the Qing dynasty they used simple bows like that for archer training. Which makes sense because a bow like this is so much cheaper and easier to make that a full blown wood-horn-sinew. So no, it's not a new idea. But my bow is not a replica of any specific historical bow. It's just made to look like a Steppe bow.
JBL - that's high praise, now I've gotta live up to it! :shock:
Bothyman - Ma haggis is at least as gud as thet bow! Tha haird part is gettin' sheep's stomachs in America - the FDA does not approve. :roll:
Outlaw - I don't know much about compression in bows... but I would think the Oak is totally in compression. I'm not sure I understand your second question... Laminated siyahs are stiffer with less thickness of wood. Yes I could wrap and saturate the area where the siyah and limb meet with glue. But I like to see the wood, and will only do that if the existing joint fails. Why no reflex? I wanted to see what would happen without reflex first.
Zoran - this technique should work with reflex as well. You could make a reflex handle and glue the core and backing around it. Why no sinew? I'm a chef not a butcher... I don't have any dead animal parts laying about!! I enjoy woodworking - I also make musical instruments - and I wanted to see what could be done with only wood.
Hcspng - Stephen said in an old ATARN post about a bamboo slat bow with siyahs that in the Qing dynasty they used simple bows like that for archer training. Which makes sense because a bow like this is so much cheaper and easier to make that a full blown wood-horn-sinew. So no, it's not a new idea. But my bow is not a replica of any specific historical bow. It's just made to look like a Steppe bow.
Thank you for answering my question.
with a simple sinew backing it should be possible to make the bow shorter and/or with a longer drawlength. (shorter = faster)KenH wrote:
Could I get a longer draw as the bow is? Maybe another inch. I like lighter bows and am happy with 28" draw. If you have a longer draw you could make the bow just a bit longer.
Yes Uli - but then I would have to mess with those icky, slimy animal parts instead of beautiful wood :lol: :D :roll:
:P yummie :lol:
After talking to Zoran, Ive decided to copy my mail to him to see what you think about some ideas
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Hi
I have been in Paris the last couple days and out of reach.
Some stuff to begin with:
In general, below the saturation point of the fibers (30%) the compressive strength increases with decreasing moisture content, however, from that % the resistance is almost constant.
The direction of the effort also has a great impact on the compressive strength of the wood, the maximum corresponding in the direction of the fibers and decreases as it departs from that direction. The compression fracture takes place by wooden pillars separating and buckling of such individual. Bucling under compression is the real deal. This situation was mathematically solved by Leonard Euler in the 1700's.
The greater the specific weight, the greater its resistance.
Some data:
Black walnut
Specific Gravity 0,55
Average Weight 609kg/m3
Average Volumetic Shrinkage 10,2%
Modulus of Elasticity 11584 MPa
Hardness 4492 N
Oak
Specific Gravity 0,68
Average Weight 769kg/m3
Average Volumetic Shrinkage 12,6%
Modulus of Elasticity 12273 MPa
Hardness 6049 N
Red Elm
Specific Gravity 0,53
Average Weight 593kg/m3
Average Volumetic Shrinkage 11%
Modulus of Elasticity 10274 MPa
Hardness 3825 N
Black Cherry
Specific Gravity 0,50
Average Weight 561kg/m3
Average Volumetic Shrinkage 9,2%
Modulus of Elasticity 10274 MPa
Hardness 4226 N
hard Maple
Specific Gravity 0,63
Average Weight 705kg/m3
Average Volumetic Shrinkage 11,9%
Modulus of Elasticity 12618 MPa
Hardness 6450 N
Ash
Specific Gravity 0,60
Average Weight 673kg/m3
Average Volumetic Shrinkage 10,7%
Modulus of Elasticity 11977 MPa
Hardness 5871 N
As you can notice, only maple and oak comply with those characteristics.
For the second layer under flexion, this is the point where all gets tricky. When you draw a bow there is, section by section of the bow in the longitudinal axis, a plane that divides the stress between traction and compression; of course, that plane has ZERO stress (doesnt work at wall) and is infinitely thin. If you put too much wood in the flexion zone, some of that wood will probably end up working under compression. That is why the turkish, I think, for maple only were using 4 mm so that with the sinew layers, the horns were working under full compression and no flexion at all. The other way around, if you put too few wood, the compression layer will end up working under flexion, not good at all.
Regardles of what they could say, I dont trust bamboo for compression since the fiber length is too high, and thusly the risk of buckling increases exponentially; non-tropical wood type fiber length (most tropical woods are anisotropic in the fiber growth direction) such as resinous european red oak, italian yew (best is spanish but that doesnt exist anymore since it is a protected species, and english yew is poor) would be a suitable choice. After that, see the list above, maple is next.
http://www.agullomaderas.com/
- These guys are serious, in Spain, and have almost whatever you ask. You will have to give very accurate dimenssions and specs. Little bit expensive.
- poletti archery, Celestino might have some yew to sell probably.
- flybow in Ireland, Harald and Cornelia, might have some OSAGE (781 kg/m3) that works nice for both sides.
- here in Belgium, Magasin E. Schmidt,; they have anything, nice people, they select my wood personally for the most packed grains specimens. Not a website, but fax works with them.
At some point, I might have time to do the exact calculations to determine what thickness for which wood, it s not hard but i have to refresh some stuff from the university.
Groetjes
____________________________________________________________
End of mail
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Hi
I have been in Paris the last couple days and out of reach.
Some stuff to begin with:
In general, below the saturation point of the fibers (30%) the compressive strength increases with decreasing moisture content, however, from that % the resistance is almost constant.
The direction of the effort also has a great impact on the compressive strength of the wood, the maximum corresponding in the direction of the fibers and decreases as it departs from that direction. The compression fracture takes place by wooden pillars separating and buckling of such individual. Bucling under compression is the real deal. This situation was mathematically solved by Leonard Euler in the 1700's.
The greater the specific weight, the greater its resistance.
Some data:
Black walnut
Specific Gravity 0,55
Average Weight 609kg/m3
Average Volumetic Shrinkage 10,2%
Modulus of Elasticity 11584 MPa
Hardness 4492 N
Oak
Specific Gravity 0,68
Average Weight 769kg/m3
Average Volumetic Shrinkage 12,6%
Modulus of Elasticity 12273 MPa
Hardness 6049 N
Red Elm
Specific Gravity 0,53
Average Weight 593kg/m3
Average Volumetic Shrinkage 11%
Modulus of Elasticity 10274 MPa
Hardness 3825 N
Black Cherry
Specific Gravity 0,50
Average Weight 561kg/m3
Average Volumetic Shrinkage 9,2%
Modulus of Elasticity 10274 MPa
Hardness 4226 N
hard Maple
Specific Gravity 0,63
Average Weight 705kg/m3
Average Volumetic Shrinkage 11,9%
Modulus of Elasticity 12618 MPa
Hardness 6450 N
Ash
Specific Gravity 0,60
Average Weight 673kg/m3
Average Volumetic Shrinkage 10,7%
Modulus of Elasticity 11977 MPa
Hardness 5871 N
As you can notice, only maple and oak comply with those characteristics.
For the second layer under flexion, this is the point where all gets tricky. When you draw a bow there is, section by section of the bow in the longitudinal axis, a plane that divides the stress between traction and compression; of course, that plane has ZERO stress (doesnt work at wall) and is infinitely thin. If you put too much wood in the flexion zone, some of that wood will probably end up working under compression. That is why the turkish, I think, for maple only were using 4 mm so that with the sinew layers, the horns were working under full compression and no flexion at all. The other way around, if you put too few wood, the compression layer will end up working under flexion, not good at all.
Regardles of what they could say, I dont trust bamboo for compression since the fiber length is too high, and thusly the risk of buckling increases exponentially; non-tropical wood type fiber length (most tropical woods are anisotropic in the fiber growth direction) such as resinous european red oak, italian yew (best is spanish but that doesnt exist anymore since it is a protected species, and english yew is poor) would be a suitable choice. After that, see the list above, maple is next.
http://www.agullomaderas.com/
- These guys are serious, in Spain, and have almost whatever you ask. You will have to give very accurate dimenssions and specs. Little bit expensive.
- poletti archery, Celestino might have some yew to sell probably.
- flybow in Ireland, Harald and Cornelia, might have some OSAGE (781 kg/m3) that works nice for both sides.
- here in Belgium, Magasin E. Schmidt,; they have anything, nice people, they select my wood personally for the most packed grains specimens. Not a website, but fax works with them.
At some point, I might have time to do the exact calculations to determine what thickness for which wood, it s not hard but i have to refresh some stuff from the university.
Groetjes
____________________________________________________________
End of mail
Outlaw - thanks for the technical specifications; and the links to the Spanish veneer site. I wish they had used Latin names for species though...
I personally have no problem accessing a wide range of hardwoods from around the world in a variety of sizes. I have several sources here in the States. The bow that I built was made from different woods that I had on hand as leftovers from building musical instruments. Literally bits and pieces from my scrap box.
This bow is only a proof-of-concept. I will probably give it away or trade it for something. Perhaps in the next one I will use more efficient woods. In another bow I plan on longer siyahs and perhaps a couple of inches of glued in reflex on the working limbs. I could certainly use woods like American Yew (Taxus sp.), Osage, White Oak, Hickory, Ipe, Jatoba, even Snakewood.
I'm not looking to build a more powerful bow. The 40-45# of this one is adequate for the kind of shooting I do.
I personally have no problem accessing a wide range of hardwoods from around the world in a variety of sizes. I have several sources here in the States. The bow that I built was made from different woods that I had on hand as leftovers from building musical instruments. Literally bits and pieces from my scrap box.
This bow is only a proof-of-concept. I will probably give it away or trade it for something. Perhaps in the next one I will use more efficient woods. In another bow I plan on longer siyahs and perhaps a couple of inches of glued in reflex on the working limbs. I could certainly use woods like American Yew (Taxus sp.), Osage, White Oak, Hickory, Ipe, Jatoba, even Snakewood.
I'm not looking to build a more powerful bow. The 40-45# of this one is adequate for the kind of shooting I do.
Comment about tiller:
The bow bends more after the handle and less near the recurves. This is not unusual for a horn bow, since the tip parts lead to ticker horn material and the horn/sinew is quite forgiving towards this.
This is not a horn bow and the wood is not so forgiving, so I would have made the outter limb bending more. However the bow seem to be holding in piece I do not recommend to do this as it would only decrease the weight.
However if you plan to make a shorter (or heavier) version of the bow, you should
make that part of the limb working more, since there will be less limb to bend and wood is not so forgiving.
Also the tips are overly heavy eating efficiency. I think it is possible to make lighter ones at least by laminating layers of lighter wood together. This would give neat perfect grain and thus less need for extra wood.
(I should write more detail what i mean here.)
The bow bends more after the handle and less near the recurves. This is not unusual for a horn bow, since the tip parts lead to ticker horn material and the horn/sinew is quite forgiving towards this.
This is not a horn bow and the wood is not so forgiving, so I would have made the outter limb bending more. However the bow seem to be holding in piece I do not recommend to do this as it would only decrease the weight.
However if you plan to make a shorter (or heavier) version of the bow, you should
make that part of the limb working more, since there will be less limb to bend and wood is not so forgiving.
Also the tips are overly heavy eating efficiency. I think it is possible to make lighter ones at least by laminating layers of lighter wood together. This would give neat perfect grain and thus less need for extra wood.
(I should write more detail what i mean here.)
In wood handbook there is:
MOE. This is the stiffnes of the material towards bend.
Modulus or rupture(MOR). The ability to take load. (sometimes
separated with compression bend and tenssion only.)
NOTE: Do not use mor with wrong grain....
Hardness is ability to resist thing tried to push inside the wood... Usefull for flooring makers, not that usefull to boyer... alltough softer woods are less good for resisting wear when hit with objects.
MOE. This is the stiffnes of the material towards bend.
Modulus or rupture(MOR). The ability to take load. (sometimes
separated with compression bend and tenssion only.)
NOTE: Do not use mor with wrong grain....
Hardness is ability to resist thing tried to push inside the wood... Usefull for flooring makers, not that usefull to boyer... alltough softer woods are less good for resisting wear when hit with objects.
jkekoni - you're right, I could have let the outer limb near the siyah bend more.
The siyahs are made by laminating together three thin pieces. I probably could have made them in a more graceful, narrower shape.
The first time you try something you learn a lot of lessons. Wait until you see my next all-wood Steppe bow!
The siyahs are made by laminating together three thin pieces. I probably could have made them in a more graceful, narrower shape.
The first time you try something you learn a lot of lessons. Wait until you see my next all-wood Steppe bow!