Dusan's Bows (discussion)

To which I reply; There is not a week that goes by that I do not learn something on ATARN. People, especially amateurs bring up issues that are important. Some of the issues seem unimportant and some are very important. I make an effort to understand it all, as possible. The resources here are grand. Novices bring a fresh view on the past.

You are not the only artist here, the only individualist, we all are! How can you say that you are not afraid of criticism when you will not show your work? You do not need to be afraid because we are all friends. We support eachother. If you learn to support others your fear will disappear.

I want to see all the bows; good bad, and indifferent. None is unimportant. Everyone please continue as before. This is a fine site. There is an audience. -j-

jack farrell wrote:

I want to see all the bows; good bad, and indifferent. None is unimportant.

Im full agree Jack with this.
When I finish my first comp. bow, sure show it here, becauce I want know what think about it each maker from atarn, despite of, that I know now already that my first bow will be dreadfull poor impotent... but I want learn and cheer from work will be bigger if will be shared with other enhusiasts for this work...

About existence Dusan bows:

I know Dusan work. He is best composite bowmaker which I know and sure best expert for history and theoretical problems of building composite bows in middle europe. He live only for old strong bows building by tradicional way. His atelier is paradise for each one, who interesting about it. You can be sure, he dont talk to wind. :D. I hope in short time he make already his dream bow and show it here (and give me shoot :D ). Only patience.

Like Jack & Peto, I would like to see all bows made by ATARN people. Good, bad or indifferent.

I'm sorry if Dusan feels that my modern Steppe-style composite without horn or sinew, is not appropriate for posting here. I did not realize that is was ONLY a site for creating exact replicas of archeological finds, and will not post my modern trash here again.

Wow !!! Mi personal threat :lol:
Jack/JJ and others/ i hope you are right man. Be friendli and respect mi decision. Once i post a mans word- i -like man stay in mi position.I can post here most pics from mi work place - pics from diferent evolutin work in last generation of mi bows , but thats all. Some of this pics i posted. I mean this pics good ilustration that i am in work - and show that i am no lier.

If i post mi novices bows long time ago - this have some sence- like others(Kviljo, JJ,...) I am not in this situation now. This guis canot help me.
Perceive you ,that Yokhua , Lukas Novotny or Jaap Kooperdryer -for example- dont post nothing ? This guys love hornbows too. And give to this little veapon many personal time and energy.This guys was in another level in bow construction.

Maybe havent time, and was busy, maybe live in big bow fans comunity and can talked in this thema. But maybe Atarn was more and more place for novices "experimentators "...
Anyway i havent chance contact much peple in bow comunity- because mi work- / i sit down in mi but and ilustrated books or painting oil in canvas.../ and somtime i need more international comunikation . Thats why i come in Atarnet .I dont know why Adam Karpowitz posted here , but maybe the same reason -like me. But i mean that Atarn litlle decline.

I am not a judge Ken , but you are right- bow like yours is maybe funny for Paleoplanet , but not here- this is mi personal think.Like you see - new Atarns like it...Than go on.

I wish all better results in yours work !

Well, I do read the most Dusan has wrote. He posts pictures that I would never found.
And many times I agree in his criticism :) but I let all do what they like to do. We live in a modern world were look is more important then function, you can see that every time you go shopping for something.
But a bow does not need to be 140lb :) just because there is museum bows that is. But on other hand, I don't like when people claims that bows was not strong, because they can't draw a strong bow. Make them in any weight you like but let us see more data on performance.
Some week ago I did see a modern fg replica of a Mongol bow. It was terrible built, not even my first was that bad in cast and balance. It was like wet spaghetti :) and a hand shock I never have feel. But it did look like a bow and the owner was proud.
No I understand how wise I was when I did decide to build a horsebow instead of order it made from site.
They are not good yet, and maybe never will. This is my latest try, and it fail of course.
http://privat.bahnhof.se/wb304054/broke ... enbow.html
I have shot few arrows with it but most use I have of testing different things on it. From beginning it was +100 lb but broke at first brace, the horn did break.

Bahh. It's the same story every time. I don't understand you, Dusan :lol:

It is weird that you spend as much time here on Atarn as you do, criticizing most bows, while praising your own work but refusing to contribute to the site by showing it.

All good science is done by sharing and open discussion.

It is very admirable of the experts to contribute, even when they know they most likely won't learn something of it themselves. That's what science is all about - learn what there is to learn, and then share it.

Funny! There's not one darn thing FUNNY or humorous about my bow or my work Dusan!!!

I know English is maybe your third language, but that's no excuse for that kind of slip, buster!

Kviljo , you forget one litle thing.
- If il "only" try made hornbow for target shooting - i dont still prefer haevy bows.
- if il try "only" made most realistic historical reconstruction i haevnot problem vith showing all mi work and debate about this.
But i try same what you do- best performed bow , who can shot the best - world flyt records :lol: And this is GAME. This is fight vith secrets. Everyone hope be a winer.
I think that i am in another level vith another goals. I haevnt any motivation show mi no finished bows - especialy if i haevnt his shot results. I give to this hobby more energy than i plan in the past 10 years start.
If mi bows dont break or another dont damged(Redhorse understand what i mean...) i inmediately destruct him (cose dont stisfied vith them ) and if i can, i recykled materials to the next plan.
This is one reason too , why i cant show you oldest bows :lol: Most of you be happy, if own one of this bows /but most of you dont pull him :D /

Ken ,sorry for mi english. I see in dictionary and word " Funny" is not that . I think that word "witty" was closer - what i try to say.

Ok. once again i show pics /especialy in mi topic :oops: / what i realy do. plus some bonus :P

own cleaning, dreing, separaring and than cooking sinew glue

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and sinew :


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own cleaning, separating , dreing fish bladers/hard work and time eater/ :

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own cleaning sturgeons heads , separating moth palate glue, draing /more work.../ :

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same vith sturgeons bladers and than cooking.

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searching in forests good curved woods for kasan/bash or "siahs" part :

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results of this work:

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searching in forests best wood for bending parts, very carefull cutting, dreing - waiting vith fear if wood dont break in his best parts... than cut them and curving- another chance break the good wood.
I use only miself cut wood or from mi friend -Jano Nagy cut wood .

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mi curved wood work:

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Only horns i must buy :) but working vith horns is crazy too- most of you know it /expect horn plate buyers/ :

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wood parts gluening start :

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work vith glue :

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horn gluening - i work vith old stile:

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Bonus -2 pics for Jack- some of mi bows dreing near mi paintings :

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Detail shape working on one of bows :

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Are you satisfied Jack ? How help you this pisc understand me or what this pics say you about shooting ouality of mi bows ?... Nothing.You and some Atarns know ,that every step of this work haeve many important things about materials, temperature, humidity, personal craftmans talent, etc, etc...

I go to the border of mi decision, boys. Next pics from me only if bows shoot like i hope.

Dusan; I have to say congratulations for showing us your stuff. I know it takes courage. Been there, done that.

Yes I am satisfied. I have been a professional wood worker for more than forty years and can tell the world about someone by their shop. I can see that you are a struggling bowmaker like the rest of us. You do not yet have a shooting bow and we here can help you to get there.

Be assured that the best bowmakers in the world go to this site. Where else can they see a picture of a Mongol Empire bow, a Uyghur, Hunn, Scythian or other era bow? Just because they do not post does not mean they do not see. Take note.

Thanks and I enjoy your work. Please continue to share with us. Jack

Dusan,
I am sure your pictures will inspire other people to try bow making. You look well organised and you have thought the process through. In bow and arrow making, you learn by experience as well as from books and sometimes your failures can be your best teachers.

There are great advantages for researchers who not only look at the paintings on the walls but try to replicate the objects in those paintings. When you are ready, you should think about publishing your work so that other people can learn what you have found out.

:D Jack you stil think that i fear atarn criticizm(?). I do not need courage show pics. I only think that one can show his work only if stay behaind him some good results- not before.

This last generation of 8 bows is 3 generation of working-good shooting bows.(I dont counted 2 or 3 generation before- ...) Every generation is 5-10 bows . But good shooting bows dont satisfied me. Some of oldiest bows i sell, some like gift i give to mi friends ,but next i destruct and reciklate. I need higer level- close to old ranges.

Thats not only about haevy waight. Bow must be in every aspects very balanced- weight, delicate dimensions, wood quality, sinew quality , glue quality, how you lay sinew, in which directions... more and more.

Thats why i angry against "simply"lightwaight replicas and public aplaus .
One work like mad , live in stres, destroy another "good shooting" bow, and in the same time people show his 40 lb "aka" hornbow who was shooting worse than wood flat bow and all congratulation him - its crazy.

If Atarns would made same "simply" useless lightwaight bows - nobody cant help me here , Jack :?
Like always i progres only in mi selfexperiences./ its no doubt that some years ago Atarn help me lot - thats why i dont understand ,why people not teach from Atarn and repeat same mistakes /

Thank you Bede. I can publishing(if i do it ...) in same time when i planing show mi bows :D When this bows was shooting like i hope, when i satisfied vith mi work. Only this results warrant me that i can show mi work an i can tell without shame what i realy do. - and Jack hurry me . :lol: :roll:

Agreed.

Dusan, the pictures of your work are quite inspiring for a novice like myself. If I ever decide to take on the challenge of bow making, it will be in large part because of seeing pictures like these.

Du?an, i like the way you work, quite natural and impressive, it gave me courage to go on with what i need,man!!!!. I wish if once you could prove efficiency of replicated bows discovering ancient techniques.Thank you for the nice pictures. I was never in doubt that you are serious worker.

On Atarn, i don't see decline of Atarn, m o r e o v e r,it is still most serious place of knowledge about traditional archery where well experienced people are always ready to help and to give support to novices or less experienced bowyers. E.G.,It would be quite difficult to get a lot of ideas if Du?an,Jack,Bede,Stephen,Adam,Yokhua,Cem,Murat and many other didn't gave me their suggestions, observations,ideas or even critics directly or through their works and posts(perhaps a lot of them do not remember but these little big things they did,gave me courage and support to be sure that i am on right road or that i can correct mysel if i took wrong road on the crossroad of knowledge). Thank to all atarnites!!!!.This is wonderful feeling when someone feels accepted and supported as it is here on ATARN.
Du?ane, veliki pozdrav, nema predaje!

Dusan, do you have fd-curve and arrow speed from any of the bows you have build?
A 40 pounder can also be good but you must measure it before you know.
Draw weight as info don't tell more then what it needs to be drawn :)

I cant agree vith you Redhorse. Draw weight is very important. 40 pounds was ... for children. In another point you are right ,draw weight + like i write - good balanced extrem light etc... bow. + goood arow + goood archery technik :lol:

(Good example that not only draw weight is important is if i dont mistake Scendomendez 120 lb bow posting somwhere in Atarn . Shooting only about 250 m(but arrow in pic and archer technik was ...bad - who know)

Like i once write one of mi bows shoot about 400m(+-) but , to this days i dont measure speed or fd-curve. I think that past bows generation was not this quality. Maybe this generation i measure more preciouse... if show me more :lol:
I can tell you that no one from this 8bows was lighter than 100 lb /some was about 140 :twisted: /

dusa old man do act your age rather than like an all knowing old man,I have a lot of respect for you but there are a lot of people who like learning which is the reason for this forum so PEOPLE LIKE ME CAN LEARN FROM OLDER AND MORE EXPERIENCED TEACHERS,like someone else pointed out the newcomers can teach you a few things as well,the mind is like a parachute,it has to be open to work,everything I have seen on this forum teaches me,unlike your sayings if it does not preform I will not talk about it.
Like my teacher says to me too often,push it to its limits and when it blows you will know how to improve,I would sooner post my falieurs than the successful bows,because I think of Atarn AS A THINK TANK RATHER THAN A CRITICISUM,point out my mistakes and I will learn.
The reason I do not have any picks posted is because you all have taught me of the mistakes and have learnt what i was doing wrong.
with all due respect we learn more from what fails than what works,sSo again with all due respect put up or shut up.
cheers time for a drink.

Dusan, your wrong in thinking. The quality in a bow is not how strong it is, the quality is how much of the input energy you get in the arrow.
There for a 140lb that shots 400 meter can still be a poor bow if its efficiency is poor. A 70 lb that makes350 can be much better bow.
My guess is that in old times they just made a stronger bow so they could shot faster. And they were in condition for that, most of us are not.

I write same Redhorse- i agree about energy input in arrow - only same energy vith heavy bow - thats it . :wink: I like it. What can or dont todays archers its not mi problem . I can :D

Dusan wrote:

I write same Redhoirse- i agree about energy input in arrow - only same energy vith heavy bow - thats it . :wink: I like it. What can or dont todays archers its not mi problem . I can :D

:) what one can draw has not anything to do with the bow quality. My point is that any healthy man should draw his body mass in kilos in pounds in a bow. If your body mass is 80 kg you should draw 80 lb with no problem, if not, you are not healthy. A kid less of course and so for us senior citizens also :)

In Chinese "Shefu" means master of .... and in the old time it took years to get on this level and only experienced elder people teach the next generation.

"you tell me something - I am listening"
"you show me something - I will watch and see"
"you let me do something - I do understand"

Atarn is a new media where people from all over the world share their know-how, experience and failures with others.

You may be extreme in your thinking, but far away of becoming a master, even you build the best horn bows in Europe. Many of the posted pictures we could find in the web our in books ourselves (except visits in museums, but there we should respect the copyright)

I simply think in the old world/time you would have been banned off the bowery society up to the moment you were on a level to talk, to teach and to master properly - But it also might be, that somebody would have given you a lesson and shoot you to the moon.

From my point of view I would not miss your comments in ATARN.


R

it takes more courage to talk a bout your falieurs than to talk about success.the day i am able to say that I am better vthan you is the day I should die.In my culture a man is given the title of master when he has taught countless students,Dronacharya was distraught with his life because he cursed himself for having to sell his knowledge to the kings sons,and as in my culture he is regarded as the greatest teacher because he taught his pupil Arjun more than he taught his own son,If you are not willing to share your knowledge you are just being arrogant. [Ed. Selby]

Very complicatet english to me , Reto. If i understand right - simply -you mean that i am so arogant man. (PjSingh i dont understand nothing...) . You both talket somthing about teachers and masters.

I haevnot any motivation be a teacher or master. I dont remember if i was rude or insult anybody. I only say what i thinking. Free ,vith no compromise.
We all live in real live vith many compromises. Somtime only in your hobby you can tell what you think vithout compromises. Because this haevnt negative influence to your profesion work,money or comunity where you live...

If you are full in your hobby - more than you thinkink before- in start, you become more and more fanatic. If not - you dont spendt so much time , money, and big part of your personal live.You dont feel this ? Than you can say and stay in more extrem position. Maybe thats it .
:D
I have only one question ? How we endid in psychoanalik sesion about me ? Question was in start: make Dusan bows or only poisonous babble /dictionary :wink: /

Folks: I think we all know each-others' views now. Can we drop this and get back to business? :wink: