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Average Han Dynasty Composite-Recurve Bow

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TheAzn
Several months ago, there was this article that caught my eye. It was about the Qum-Darya Bow. What interests me was that it seems to be one of the advanced archery weapon of the time. It is at least 40% larger, had a more pronounced recurve shape and had greater "wings" of horn than the Western counterpart. What is more interesting was that the bow probably belong to Han Dynasty.

However, the Qum-Darya Bow is probably not a representative of the average Han Dynasty Composite-Recurve Bow, since, based on my knowledge, there is only one Qum-Darya found so far. And this is my question: what is the characteristics of the average Han Dynasty Composite-Recurve then? How many laths do they have; was it 4 laths like the Yrzi Bow, or 0 like the Scythian Bow?

Also, the Yrzi and the Scythian Bow were tested to be 60 lbs -80lbs. What was the draw-weight of the average Han Composite-Recurve?

As always, please provide some academic sources
Thank you very much
Stephen Selby
In the 400-year Han dynasty, China's boundaries extended to an unprecedented extent. Use of cavalry became widespread and the war chariot fell into disuse. Against that background, the bow designs that were current were very diverse. During many phases of the Han Dynasty, interaction with the Xiongnu was intense, consisting both of fights and of alliances and trade in goods.

The evidence of Han bow designs is seen in occasional wall paintings, tomb carvings, and some original bows. The bows from eastern China seem to be wood-wood laminates, with three to five layers and reinforcement of silk binding and lacquer (e.g. the tomb of Dou Wan and Mawangdui).

The Han royal household had origins in Chu and may have retained the use of these simple wood-wood composites for cultural reasons.

Try reading Yang Hong "Weapons in Ancient China" NY 1992. ISBN 1-880132-03-6.
TheAzn

Stephen Selby wrote:

In the 400-year Han dynasty, China's boundaries extended to an unprecedented extent. Use of cavalry became widespread and the war chariot fell into disuse. Against that background, the bow designs that were current were very diverse. During many phases of the Han Dynasty, interaction with the Xiongnu was intense, consisting both of fights and of alliances and trade in goods.

The evidence of Han bow designs is seen in occasional wall paintings, tomb carvings, and some original bows. The bows from eastern China seem to be wood-wood laminates, with three to five layers and reinforcement of silk binding and lacquer (e.g. the tomb of Dou Wan and Mawangdui).

The Han royal household had origins in Chu and may have retained the use of these simple wood-wood composites for cultural reasons.

Try reading Yang Hong "Weapons in Ancient China" NY 1992. ISBN 1-880132-03-6.

Thanks, Stephen.
jack farrell
Also, if you want to know what was being used out on the frontier at the time find Andrew Hall's articles in the Journal of the Society of Archer Antiquaries. He reports on tomb finds of Xinjiang.
Justin Ma

Stephen Selby wrote:

The evidence of Han bow designs is seen in occasional wall paintings, tomb carvings, and some original bows. The bows from eastern China seem to be wood-wood laminates, with three to five layers and reinforcement of silk binding and lacquer (e.g. the tomb of Dou Wan and Mawangdui).

What was the estimated draw length of these wood-wood laminates?
Stephen Selby
This is a near as I can get to asking a Han archer 8)
Justin Ma
Sweet. Looks like he's holding the bow horizontally, too. I should try that one of these days. 8)

It would be awesome if someone made a reproduction of the wood-wood laminated bows. (I'm glad the diversity of Chinese bow designs means more opportunities for collecting.)
Justin Ma
On a slightly related note... The State of Zhao (403--222 BCE) sat on the border between the Xiongnu and the other Chinese states. Also, King Wuling of Zhao (325--298 BCE) reformed his military to use Xiongnu-style cavalry and dress. So is it fair to say that the people of Zhao mostly likely used Xiongnu-influenced horn bow designs?

(My surname originated in the Zhao kingdom, so I'm particularly interested in the answer, even if it is speculative.)
Stephen Selby

Justin Ma wrote:

Sweet. Looks like he's holding the bow horizontally, too.

No no no... Bow is vertical. There is a hole drilled through the fist of the figure where the original model wooden bow fitted. Here's another...

A particular element of technique that both of these pottery figures demonstrate is the draw-hand held out from the body. Comparing with my own body, it seems that at full draw, the right hand thumb is around 20cm away from the right nipple.

No information on Zhao Wuling's bows. Getting a new set of bows made is a bigger undertaking that tailoring a new set of pants. With that story, I think you have to ignore the detail and get to the central message: chariots out - horseback archery in.
jiao
at full draw the right hand thumb is around 20cm away from the right nipple.

ohh my god ......... i shooting like this,it can not use eye aiming and has no tuch the right hand and string, stephen, can you show more pictures form top,front,back ?
Stephen Selby

jiao wrote:

Ccan you show more pictures form top,front,back ?

Only for one statue. Note that both are shooting up in the air. Maybe they are making an 'arrow-shower' and not shooting at flying birds!
Bede
What kind of birds would you need to wear armour to shoot?
Stephen Selby

Bede wrote:

What kind of birds would you need to wear armour to shoot?

Cuckoos with sidewinders? Who knows?
Bede
So, the birds can shoot back. Nothing was safe in the old days.
TheAzn

Stephen Selby wrote:

The evidence of Han bow designs is seen in occasional wall paintings, tomb carvings, and some original bows. The bows from eastern China seem to be wood-wood laminates, with three to five layers and reinforcement of silk binding and lacquer (e.g. the tomb of Dou Wan and Mawangdui).

The Han royal household had origins in Chu and may have retained the use of these simple wood-wood composites for cultural reasons.

Try reading Yang Hong "Weapons in Ancient China" NY 1992. ISBN 1-880132-03-6.

Just to make sure though. Are you sure that it was a wood-wood composite? I have heard from many people that wood-horn composite was already widepread by this time (Han Dynasty).

[edit] :Oh wait. You have already stated that this was only in Eastern China. Never mind then. So the rest of China (except Southern) had wood-horn composites? How many "lathes" were in those bows?
Stephen Selby
As I said, three to five. And I cannot be sure that some were not bamboo/wood composites, like Japanese Yumi.

You would think that having sat down with the things and stared at them that I could tell; but I couldn't. And the best preserved ones had an outer layer of lacquer, so I couldn't tell the composition accurately. :(

S
jiao
Justin Ma
Anybody willing to speculate what general shape the Mawangdui wood composite bow would take when strung? (In particular, would it have a pronounced setback in the handle, or would the handle be more-or-less straight?)
Stephen Selby
I can't see evidence for a set-back of the grip. If you can find the reports of the excavation of the burial of Zeng Hou Yi in Henan, there are some drawings. The burial is earlier than Mawangdui; but the bow design is similar.
Justin Ma
I'm having a little trouble finding books at our library containing good photos of excavated bows from Zeng Hou Yi's tomb. The books I found typically show individual shots of halberd blades and other excavated weapons, but no bows. How could they overlook bows? Lame.

Can you recommend a particular reference for detailed photos from that excavation?
Justin Ma
A friend in Beijing found a book for me that contained pictures of the Zeng Hou Yi tomb bows (and provided the following translation of some of the text). These bows were made of 3 pieces of wood: one for the upper limb and one for the lower limb (these two pieces overlap at the grip), and one to reinforce the belly of the grip in a setback fashion. I hope it's okay to share this pic.

Is this construction still considered "composite" or is it more along the lines of a selfbow?

---

Translation:

五兵之一就只剩下弓和矢了。墓中出土的弓共55件,形制较为简单,而箭簇共有4507件,是已发掘的任何一座墓无法比拟的,形制也较为繁杂。
Among the five weapons(弓 、戟、矛、 剑 、楯: bow, dagger-axe, spear, sword, shield) are bows and arrows. There are 55 bows excavated from the tomb whose construction is rather simple. There are also 4507 pieces of arrowheads. No other tombs contain so large a number of arrowheads with the same structural complexity.

许多墓中都出土有竹弓。此墓的弓在现场时还误以为是竹弓,因为外形酷似竹片制作;经仔细辨认,才知全为木片所质,只有最下等的才为竹制。一些规格较高的墓中所出之弓,很可能还想曾侯乙墓一样为木质所制,非为竹制。
Bamboo bows were found in many tombs. Bows in this tomb were mistaken as bamboo-made at first for its slim shape. But after closer examination, it?s confirmed that these bows are all made of wood. Only bows of the lowest level are made of bamboo. Bows from other tombs which are as grand as tomb of Marquis Yi of Zeng are probably all made of wood too, not bamboo.

每张弓均由三块木片拼接绕缠而成,用两块带有一定弧度的木片,一端平齐较厚,一段较薄,两根较薄的一端在弓的中部重叠,并在弧度的外侧,另加一块较段稍厚之木片,将这三片缠绕好,表面在髹漆,弓也就制作出来了。在弓的两端(弧形内侧)还装有角质弓弭。出土时,弦已不存,从弓弭上有横刻槽来看,出土的弓实际都是反弓,拉弦时,必须把弓的弧形反过来,这样弓的张力才大。
Every bow is made up of three pieces of wood. They were matched and then tied together. Two pieces were curved with one end thicker than the other. The two thinner ends were placed together in the middle of the bow and were on the back of the curve. Then a third thick piece of wood was placed on the two. And then the three were tied together. The last step is to paint them. On both ends of the bow (within the curve) are string nocks made of horn. After excavation, strings were gone. But from the horizontal cuttings on the nock it's clear that the bows excavated are all recurve bows. When adding the string, the curve of the bow is reversed to make the bow tense.
Dusan
Thanks Justin . Wonderfull info. Have you any knowlidge about measurments? Bows look short vith high reflex- any trace of sinew ?
Justin Ma

Dusan wrote:

Thanks Justin . Wonderfull info. Have you any knowlidge about measurments? Bows look short vith high reflex- any trace of sinew ?

According to Stephen's JCMS article, the length of the bows from Zeng Hou Yi tomb were 112--117 cm long, 2.5--3.0 cm wide and 0.5 cm thick. It's unclear whether there was sinew, but it seems the custom of southern China during that time period was to wrap the bow in silk.
Dusan
Thank you Justin. Thats more info. I am very sceptical if 112 cm bow can be save only vith silk wraping...But i dont work vith haevy silk wrapink in wood /or bamboo/ bow.