Bamboo arrow debate
These shafts are spined but their weights vary considerably. I have to make allowances for the extra five inches of shaft - my arrows are now 34" instead of 29" - which means the finished arrows are 500+ grains and I'd prefer them around 400. I should add that the Tiger shafts are the same.
Obviously forgive the plastic nocks, the next ones will be wood, but these are for general purpose training/field etc. I finished them with bees wax.
Bamboos from the same area and of the same weight tend to also have similar node placement. If one had 100 acceptable shafts, one could lay them all out and make some very nice groupings.
The weight range I give is for #35 to 50 target type bows within the draw range specified. I cut the fletch node to 7" from the end, overall length 27" and want a 20 gram finished shaft weight anyway. Only a very few shafts of the proper weight will lack sufficient spine.
Others will have their own specifications. For instance Ginni shoots a heavy bow and his shafts start as 30-40 grams at 34".
As far as I can make it from the pictures, your shafts look straight with the diameter even at the nodes and the internodes.
What is the source of those particular shafts then?
What do you mean by Tiger shafts being the same?
Here is a picture showing the weight spread in the last batch of bamboo shafts I handled. All shafts have been from the Chinese E-bay seller.
http://picasaweb.google.com/Ashbow2/Bam ... 8167844946
The weight avarages at 25-26 grams, for a 33" long shaft.
As I wrote before, they are not very sraight, I don't know the species, but I recall Jack Farrell? writing about 'mountain bamboo being not very uniform'.
I also went through another batch of 36 shafts that are about 40" long, from which I managed to select 20 that would produce a shaft with three nodes for a 32" long arrow and a fletch node 7" from the thinner end, that is according to Jack's advice. This was the first step, I need to cut them to lenght and weight them, I'll get back to you after that to report how many I have needed to reject.
Jack, thanks for the drawing.
Grinding on the points can adjust for weight and a bamboo shiskabob skewer or finish nail can be glued into the nock end to help balance shafts. So you can put the 24s or the 26s into the group of the 25s and this would be a majority of all the shafts. The heavy ones can be given or traded to a strong bow type and the weak ones reserved for newbies or youngsters. High quality light shafts make good distance arrows, for instance for over 100m.
You skim off half of the fantasy quality shafts for yourself and make up the others for friends. If some tweeking is needed, well this is all in the craft.
As Orda has mentioned the node placement could be better but they are nice and consistent. I have made up 4 complete arrows from them so far and another 4 with points and nocks, waiting for feathers to arrive to finish them.
We split the 2 dozen into the heaviest and lightest, with me having the lightest as I shoot a lighter bow. I weighed and labelled each shaft and there were 2 shafts that were considerably lighter than the rest, with the other 10 having a spread of about 30 grains from lightest to heaviest. To make the 4 test arrows, i selected 4 out of the middle that had a close range and cut them all to the same length, and built them up. I was very suprised to find that when finished, the spread between the lighest and heaviest of the 4 arrows is only 6 grains.
They fly beautifully compared to the wood shafts I was previously using ( POC ) but these were admittedly a bit too weak, and they are very smooth to shoot. My technique with the thumb ring leaves a lot to be desired, it is still early days but I am already finding bamboo a lot more forgiving, nicer to shoot and they are grouping well when I shoot properly.
I'm shooting these out of a TRH Crimean Tartar, but I have a Kaya Korean on order which should arrive today. Can't wait to try it out with bamboo's :)
I agree with your diagram, it is similar to the Korean ratios, however the section in front of the first node I would prefer to see at least 5".
Ashbow,
Mark Hill, as Igneas has mentioned. Tiger shafts being the same...meaning similar weight, ie on the heavy side. These are quite a bit heavier than the Pseudosasa Japonica shafts I used. Incidentally, I have a few culms in the garage, drying so I should put them to use.
I think weight of shaft should be the priority over the western 'spine' notion. As Jack has already said, the spine will fall in the same bracket.
Igneas,
Yes they are quite nice and ok for day to day but consider the spread over the 24 shafts ... That would not do for quality arrows.
Yes, I got them. Unfortunately, Tiger has just supplied shafts for bows to 35 lbs. I got the bows up to 70 lbs. Arrows produce and introduce them here. Shafts are quite heavy - about 40 grams.jack farrell wrote:
Has anyone bought Tiger's 6-piece fishpole constructed shafts?
So, Mark is sourcing the shafts from E-bay too, did I understand correctly? If he is, then I wonder if he's getting them form the same seller I was writing about, I can find only one Chinese seller selling bamboo shafts on E-bay.
I agree with Orda about the priority of weight over stiffness, actualy it is quite interesting to me how the approach to matching arrows in the West has changed since introducing the spine value. It is of wonder how much attention is payed to the exact stiffness (what we now tend to call 'the static spine') in a set of arrows while in the same time a lot of arrowmakers will not at all be concerned about the weight spread of several grams. Before the 'spine age' the shafts would be matched according to weight and enough stiffness to 'stand in the bow'.
When buing those Chinese shafts form E-bay, it is probably better to buy lots, because they will be not selected enough in a small set like 24 shafts. As mentioned the weight spread is quite large. Also the node placement is completely random, especially in the shorter arrows, this doesn't give almost any room for matching according to the node placement, the nodes spacing also varies considerably form shaft to shaft, so even if you get all the shafts with the fletch node at the same distance from the nock, the remaining nodes will still not match.
The progress with 40" long shafts haven't gone well, I started with 20 shafts out of 36.
After cutting them to lenght I had to reject a couple with a bad node placement. Those shafts, contary to the shorter ones bought from the same supplier, appear to be not straightened at all...When I started to weight them I gave up with making a matched set, I ended up with 6 shafts that still have a weight spread of nearly 10 grams...
Jack, thank you for the advice, the shafts are not mine, I'm just doing the fletchers work. As the saying goes, a shoemaker goes without shoes :lol:.
Circle of thoughts in my head again, I was this close to order some Ebay bamboo - it looks good, price is right and out of 1000 I could probably select a few sets, but what I would do with a rest of them?
And some people wander why those Korean and Japanese bamboo arrows are expensive...
Does anyone know where can I get "original" Korean bamboo? Recall Thomas writing about the price ones (25 USD per shaft ready to assembly?)
I could accept the nodes being off providing all the shafts weighed the same but from a dozen shafts I could make three different sets ... not a lot of point in that. Even the Tiger shafts are spine matched so it's a difficult one to call. The fact still remains that they are heavy, 31-33 grams and these are spined at 40-45; more than 9gr per pound. The bow is still flinging them out ... it will be interesting to see what they are like at distance.
Having said all this, the archery we do is quite tough on arrows. Had that stupid accident last night happened with a quality arrow I'd have been suicidal, I was bad enough anyway.
With 40" shafts what is the taper like? Most of these were 5/16" down to between 1/4" and 9/32". I had a couple that were 11/32" up front.
I bought 500 pieces of bamboo shafts and divided them into four groups (50-55 lb 55-60 lb 60-70 lb 70-85 lb) of weight. Some actually have a larger diameter. Most groups have one the same diameter. Equality is quite good.Orda Khan wrote:
Most of these were 5/16" down to between 1/4" and 9/32". I had a couple that were 11/32" up front.
These are the arrows of the shipment:
[external image]
![[external image]](https://lh3.ggpht.com/_M1_wQxeMoVY/TMh_IDNeR3I/AAAAAAAACbc/qQARzsrH0Ss/s640/DSCF0857.jpg){kind=link}
With a shaft having a diameter of e.g. 8.3mm, a 5/16 point will be too small and a 11/32 point will leave a gap of 0.2mm.
Daniel
The points I have 4 sizes (same weight) according to the average. By weight shafts give a piece of lead to balance in the hole in the rod.Daniel T. wrote:
If you have a variation of diameter of the shafts, how do you fit the points?
With a shaft having a diameter of e.g. 8.3mm, a 5/16 point will be too small and a 11/32 point will leave a gap of 0.2mm.
Daniel
Your current bamboo groups are designed for beginners. Since you have very many bamboo sticks, you might create master quality shafts from the same bamboos.
Please read the posts above and consider my plan.
I taught my friend to make these arrows from Chinese garden bamboo.
Raw Korean bamboo was a couple bucks each and heated/straighted was several times that (I don't remember exactly, as it's been quite a while since I last bought any).Daniel wrote:
I've posted this question on KTA forum, I guess might ask here as well:
Does anyone know where can I get "original" Korean bamboo? Recall Thomas writing about the price ones (25 USD per shaft ready to assembly?)
I have bamboo shafts (Tiger). I disagree that it is for beginners. I bought 300 copies and do the arrows on the traditional archery competitions in the Czech Republic (5-10 place). Colleague Championship Czech Republic (traditional archery) finished second (I had made Bamboo Arrows - shafts Tiger). Using only bamboo arrows.jack farrell wrote:
Your current bamboo groups are designed for beginners. Since you have very many bamboo sticks, you might create master quality shafts from the same bamboos.
[external image]
![[external image]](https://lh6.ggpht.com/_M1_wQxeMoVY/TJtyv51fsxI/AAAAAAAACYY/sM-XX2oEsDk/s640/DSCF0844.JPG){kind=link}
[external image]
Did you see the bundles of sticks being sold to the Korean fletchers? Tiger can make up similar bundles when he learns that this will improve his stock greatly will little extra effort.
I am ready to recommend when the next generation of selecting becomes established. Till then, there is improvement needed
PS. He asked for advice.
Shafts sorted by weight and guidance by node. Shafts finalize grinding, followed by heating equal. I use epoxy paint and hardened shafts equal. We will produce guidance arrows 30 (or more). Arrows classing under the weight of the final group with tolerance to 2 grams of weight.Orda Khan wrote:
First piece of advice I'd offer is forget spining the shafts and select by weight. As Ashbow has mentioned already, the west is too fixated with spine.
Sometimes the shafts are the same weight, equally spaced nodes and arrows fly poorly. It's more of the parameters that must be considered. It is best to sort the finished arrows.
Hijack farrell wrote:
Here is what I would want. Node placement is necessary for the highest quality arrows. One has to start somewhere when cutting arrow shafts anyway. So this is my preferred layout. Those shafts which will not fit into this format can be kept for second quality also.
Bamboos from the same area and of the same weight tend to also have similar node placement. If one had 100 acceptable shafts, one could lay them all out and make some very nice groupings.
The weight range I give is for #35 to 50 target type bows within the draw range specified. I cut the fletch node to 7" from the end, overall length 27" and want a 20 gram finished shaft weight anyway. Only a very few shafts of the proper weight will lack sufficient spine.
Others will have their own specifications. For instance Ginni shoots a heavy bow and his shafts start as 30-40 grams at 34".
to do such bamboo arrow shafts is quite simple and easy for me,i worry it is too short only 30",
1) if so short arrow is for small amount of person?
2) if i make 33" long and same design?but weight will be 30-35grams?
which design is best for user? i hope my design is for 99% user,not only for 10-20% person use,i am not expert on this,just want my design is for most people,not so small amount of person,so,if the llength to 33" long with same design?
HiAshbow wrote:
Orda Khan, thank you for moving the discussion to the new topic.
As far as I can make it from the pictures, your shafts look straight with the diameter even at the nodes and the internodes.
What is the source of those particular shafts then?
What do you mean by Tiger shafts being the same?
Here is a picture showing the weight spread in the last batch of bamboo shafts I handled. All shafts have been from the Chinese E-bay seller.
http://picasaweb.google.com/Ashbow2/Bam ... 8167844946
The weight avarages at 25-26 grams, for a 33" long shaft.
As I wrote before, they are not very sraight, I don't know the species, but I recall Jack Farrell? writing about 'mountain bamboo being not very uniform'.
I also went through another batch of 36 shafts that are about 40" long, from which I managed to select 20 that would produce a shaft with three nodes for a 32" long arrow and a fletch node 7" from the thinner end, that is according to Jack's advice. This was the first step, I need to cut them to lenght and weight them, I'll get back to you after that to report how many I have needed to reject.
Jack, thanks for the drawing.
to do 25-26 grams, for a 33" long shaft is not problem for me,just choice diameter from 7-8MM with spine 30-40# will match this request,but is 25-30grams,i always confused,many person want to compare bamboo arrow to wood and a lot of people want to make bamboo arrow into standards,it is quite difficult,but i can do that,as i tell people,bamboo live on montain and some of them face sun which growping more strong fibre=more stiff(thin but big spine and light weight)some live back sun,so,heavy and thin fibre and less spine,but if we choice only face living bamboo will uping the material cost.
and now people shoot bamboo just for enjoy or relax after so heavy job,but some professinonal people want to use bamboo arrow to win the competetion:if this way,you should choice best bamboo arrow shafts to do your game bamboo arrows,and this will depend on user's exprence and habbit shoot bow and so on,it is quite complex choice.some say yes,and some say not good.
in a word,i can do bamboo arrow shafts in a unform format and like drawing design;to les work of arrow maker's work:to let them choice more game bamboo arrows,anyway i can do most design bamboo shafts,but my basic point is the design is for 99% user,not for only 10-20% user,as i hope all people can use bamboo arrow:instead of wood( to save forest,as cedar need minimum 15 -20 years grow to cut into arrow shafts,but bamboo only need 4-5 years grow and it grow quite easy and nobady care it and it grwo rondowly so faster and easy
yes,that is my original design point:i sell so cheaper bamboo arrow shafts,some people can choice best quality they think to do best quality game or professional training arrow,some is just for gift and some is just for shoot enjoying or for exciting or just pass free time for no aim.jack farrell wrote:
Ash; That is a really nice bunch of sticks! it would take me 100 hours or more to prepare those.
Grinding on the points can adjust for weight and a bamboo shiskabob skewer or finish nail can be glued into the nock end to help balance shafts. So you can put the 24s or the 26s into the group of the 25s and this would be a majority of all the shafts. The heavy ones can be given or traded to a strong bow type and the weak ones reserved for newbies or youngsters. High quality light shafts make good distance arrows, for instance for over 100m.
You skim off half of the fantasy quality shafts for yourself and make up the others for friends. If some tweeking is needed, well this is all in the craft.
when i design the bamboo arrow shafts,i already image the people will use bamboo arrow shafts :divide them into some group for vaired use aim:Igneas wrote:
I had a dozen of those bamboo shafts on the same order as Orda ( no pun intended ) and I am quite pleased with them. They were obtained from Mark Hill, bought through ebay.
As Orda has mentioned the node placement could be better but they are nice and consistent. I have made up 4 complete arrows from them so far and another 4 with points and nocks, waiting for feathers to arrive to finish them.
We split the 2 dozen into the heaviest and lightest, with me having the lightest as I shoot a lighter bow. I weighed and labelled each shaft and there were 2 shafts that were considerably lighter than the rest, with the other 10 having a spread of about 30 grains from lightest to heaviest. To make the 4 test arrows, i selected 4 out of the middle that had a close range and cut them all to the same length, and built them up. I was very suprised to find that when finished, the spread between the lighest and heaviest of the 4 arrows is only 6 grains.
They fly beautifully compared to the wood shafts I was previously using ( POC ) but these were admittedly a bit too weak, and they are very smooth to shoot. My technique with the thumb ring leaves a lot to be desired, it is still early days but I am already finding bamboo a lot more forgiving, nicer to shoot and they are grouping well when I shoot properly.
I'm shooting these out of a TRH Crimean Tartar, but I have a Kaya Korean on order which should arrive today. Can't wait to try it out with bamboo's :)
some for competetion game,some for gift,some for trainning and some for pass happy time.i trust best quality bamboo arrrow should be champion of other material whatever aluminium or fibre,some people tell me 1988,when korean olimpic game,some korean national member use bamboo arrows only and they win the champion finally,of course,they choice best quality of bamboo arrows to take part in the olimpic game
HiOrda Khan wrote:
Jack,
I agree with your diagram, it is similar to the Korean ratios, however the section in front of the first node I would prefer to see at least 5".
Ashbow,
Mark Hill, as Igneas has mentioned. Tiger shafts being the same...meaning similar weight, ie on the heavy side. These are quite a bit heavier than the Pseudosasa Japonica shafts I used. Incidentally, I have a few culms in the garage, drying so I should put them to use.
I think weight of shaft should be the priority over the western 'spine' notion. As Jack has already said, the spine will fall in the same bracket.
Igneas,
Yes they are quite nice and ok for day to day but consider the spread over the 24 shafts ... That would not do for quality arrows.
what is "Igneas"meanning,i have to say,make hill give me a lot of idea on how to do bamboo arrow,he bring me the spine idea and longth and weight etc,i will say thank him very much to let my bamboo shafts go to this world so quickly and quite smoothly
HiOrda Khan wrote:
Jack,
I agree with your diagram, it is similar to the Korean ratios, however the section in front of the first node I would prefer to see at least 5".
Ashbow,
Mark Hill, as Igneas has mentioned. Tiger shafts being the same...meaning similar weight, ie on the heavy side. These are quite a bit heavier than the Pseudosasa Japonica shafts I used. Incidentally, I have a few culms in the garage, drying so I should put them to use.
I think weight of shaft should be the priority over the western 'spine' notion. As Jack has already said, the spine will fall in the same bracket.
Igneas,
Yes they are quite nice and ok for day to day but consider the spread over the 24 shafts ... That would not do for quality arrows.
if you show me original korean bamboo arrow and japanese kuydo shafts photos and mark them with size and weight etc?i like to use my eye to study them better and clearly,and i try to do better quality than koreanand japanese kuydo,as their skill come from china may be 2000years ago,i think chinese bamboo arrow is original place,even japan and korean go ahead so faster,but i should let people know in future,china bamboo arrow is best:as the material is better :thick wall and original very straight living and economic price etc,as they still to do bamboo arrows by hand:3-5 pcs one day, and we do polish and hand stragihten them into finish:1000-3000pcs/day if we want to do
and we double heat:in stove and carbonized:more uniform heating to keep same spine each part of bamboo,and they process is only some small part of bamboo.i don't want to say japan or korean bamboo is poor,but i think chinese can be done better and better without end quality standards
it is still in process,we bought some new machine and after 3 month,i can do above 40# hxbamboo shafts:use hot glue and more heavy pressure,but i worry they are heavier than natural shafts,as natural bamboo shafts is hollow:fly like ship:float on air=fly more straight line at tartget.heavy hexbamboo will sink easier,you have to up the bow and will be little difficult to shoot at target.but natural is not this problem during 50 meter:just keep precise at target and repeat some times,you will find out best right position of bow when shoot:it need more practice to find out this positionjack farrell wrote:
Has anyone bought Tiger's 6-piece fishpole constructed shafts?
spine idea is come from mark hill which is more scientific standards,as arrow fly in snake action even you can see this.bamboo have very strong fibre than any wood,so,when it fly,its snake action is very small and faster than wood=more precise at target:just keep precise when shoot,wood fibre is very short and weak:easy to break and fly slowly than bamboo:that is top secrest even many wood shafts seller refuse the accept it:they have to keep them job tightly and say bad word of bamboo shafts:it is natural feedback,i know it:even you give them gold and they relpy it is shit.Ashbow wrote:
Orda nad Igneas,
So, Mark is sourcing the shafts from E-bay too, did I understand correctly? If he is, then I wonder if he's getting them form the same seller I was writing about, I can find only one Chinese seller selling bamboo shafts on E-bay.
I agree with Orda about the priority of weight over stiffness, actualy it is quite interesting to me how the approach to matching arrows in the West has changed since introducing the spine value. It is of wonder how much attention is payed to the exact stiffness (what we now tend to call 'the static spine') in a set of arrows while in the same time a lot of arrowmakers will not at all be concerned about the weight spread of several grams. Before the 'spine age' the shafts would be matched according to weight and enough stiffness to 'stand in the bow'.
When buing those Chinese shafts form E-bay, it is probably better to buy lots, because they will be not selected enough in a small set like 24 shafts. As mentioned the weight spread is quite large. Also the node placement is completely random, especially in the shorter arrows, this doesn't give almost any room for matching according to the node placement, the nodes spacing also varies considerably form shaft to shaft, so even if you get all the shafts with the fletch node at the same distance from the nock, the remaining nodes will still not match.
The progress with 40" long shafts haven't gone well, I started with 20 shafts out of 36.
After cutting them to lenght I had to reject a couple with a bad node placement. Those shafts, contary to the shorter ones bought from the same supplier, appear to be not straightened at all...When I started to weight them I gave up with making a matched set, I ended up with 6 shafts that still have a weight spread of nearly 10 grams...
Jack, thank you for the advice, the shafts are not mine, I'm just doing the fletchers work. As the saying goes, a shoemaker goes without shoes :lol:.
long size bamboo shafts is more difficult to staright them tha nshort shafts,you can image it.more longer,more difficult to hand straight them,so japanese do only 3-5pcs each day just for staright kuydo ,we can produce 1000pcs/day,even 3000pcs if market want.
they are waiting my shafts coming,: in fact,they do only 3-5 pcs/person/day,so,the price is uping very higher,even they polish nodes and bamboo part by hand total( no necessary to do this way=they should accpt modern machine to do this job)Daniel wrote:
Damn Ashbow (just kidding) :wink:
Circle of thoughts in my head again, I was this close to order some Ebay bamboo - it looks good, price is right and out of 1000 I could probably select a few sets, but what I would do with a rest of them?
And some people wander why those Korean and Japanese bamboo arrows are expensive...
i am univercity degree,i know how to hurry the process and use machine instead of hand work and down the cost=no waste time and money to polish total bamboo by hand,but they insisit on trandistional way even it is not scientific,but no machine 1000year ago,now full of pilish machine,why they still polish them by hand?
this design is my orginal design even i don't knwo what is kuydo and korean bamboo arrow,but when we collect material,we meet big problem,such material is less and cost more expensive,my orginal idea is first let more people to know what is bamboo arrows and practive them so many,and then we will produce higher quality bamboo shafts for professional use,but this photo is diffirent from first diagram which is no nodes at flecth part,i am confused if it is no necessary to cancel last nodes:it is quite difficult and will waste many bamboo material,last nodes is no meanings,just without it for easy flat fletching,last nodes is only for grasp the nodes heaviy,but use thread or glur type node will resolve the problem,if i am right,we say: no necessary drawing the snake add extra foot,as snake havn't no foot,if i am right,it is quite interesting ,i want to do perfect bamboo shafts to cover even pickyyest guy's mouthDaniel wrote:
I've posted this question on KTA forum, I guess might ask here as well:
Does anyone know where can I get "original" Korean bamboo? Recall Thomas writing about the price ones (25 USD per shaft ready to assembly?)
mark shafts is type of china arrow bamboo material which is my first products:think wall and not so straighten,and quite difficult to collect material,we cancel this specie of bamboo and use tonkin bamboo instead:thick wall and natural straight material and easy production and easy hand stright too:we try our process beome alwasy easy standards;complex always make failed and easy=suceed,that is my philosophy to do all items.Orda Khan wrote:
I believe he placed an order for 1000 shafts, it could be the same supplier. Sorry about the photos they are quite poor quality, it was a horrible, wet day with poor light. Those three are particularly straight (slight intervention from me)...should say were ... only two remain :evil: but let's not dwell on that.
I could accept the nodes being off providing all the shafts weighed the same but from a dozen shafts I could make three different sets ... not a lot of point in that. Even the Tiger shafts are spine matched so it's a difficult one to call. The fact still remains that they are heavy, 31-33 grams and these are spined at 40-45; more than 9gr per pound. The bow is still flinging them out ... it will be interesting to see what they are like at distance.
Having said all this, the archery we do is quite tough on arrows. Had that stupid accident last night happened with a quality arrow I'd have been suicidal, I was bad enough anyway.
With 40" shafts what is the taper like? Most of these were 5/16" down to between 1/4" and 9/32". I had a couple that were 11/32" up front.
bamboo arrow shafts have unique point:it is hollow and fly like ship on water,bamboo arrows float inside the air,so,its speed is very faster and less obstacle of air and less snake action-more precise at target,another it is very beautiful like art,and very active looking,people will ve exciting just looking at it and wood arrow like : people will sleep after long time seeing at it even it is more histry;usa no live bamboo or no live good bamboo for making arrow shafts.so they use wood:easy sunk and cost very high and easy break and sleeping looking.sorry may be i am wrong,but i love bamboo arrow very much;perfect work result+very nice art looling ven many people refuse to use it,i think gold is alwasy gold,even some less of them say they are shit. but the time will be the final adjustice who is rightjchocz wrote:
I bought 500 pieces of bamboo shafts and divided them into four groups (50-55 lb 55-60 lb 60-70 lb 70-85 lb) of weight. Some actually have a larger diameter. Most groups have one the same diameter. Equality is quite good.Orda Khan wrote:
Most of these were 5/16" down to between 1/4" and 9/32". I had a couple that were 11/32" up front.
These are the arrows of the shipment:
[external image]
i see your diagram and korean shafts photos and it is very very easy and simple work for me,just price is uping and if your design is match 99% request?as here is factory,i must think 99% person use,not for small people habbit.if i change it into your request,the price will be uping a lot,as we have waste many bamboo material and produce less amount and ofcourse price will uping.jack farrell wrote:
Tiger; It is possible for you to match the spacing of the fletch node because I am already buying gardening bamboos from China and doing just that.
Your current bamboo groups are designed for beginners. Since you have very many bamboo sticks, you might create master quality shafts from the same bamboos.
Please read the posts above and consider my plan.
I taught my friend to make these arrows from Chinese garden bamboo.
Hijack farrell wrote:
jchocz; I do believe that a craftsman such as yourself, when given the choice, will choose node matched and weight matched shafts as opposed to random nodes and wide weight variation.
Did you see the bundles of sticks being sold to the Korean fletchers? Tiger can make up similar bundles when he learns that this will improve his stock greatly will little extra effort.
I am ready to recommend when the next generation of selecting becomes established. Till then, there is improvement needed
PS. He asked for advice.
yes,i need improve always the quality,my quality standards is no standards(it come from chinese philosophy and very complex to expain)
why i don't sell to korean,that is business right that is already divided when start to sell,and korean people is quite solid mind and they refuse to use other standard even it is better quality and price,they always think all korean items is best quaility and this mind is come from thier culture, they have been pressed deeply by japanese many years and many korean have anti foreign items's spirit what even bamboo arrows or car or other items,you can see very less foreign items in their country,almost made in korean.less germany,japan,usa products.they don't buy my shafts=they love their country very much,you can ask any korean if it is truth,you will get my similar reply.
western people love to make all item into standards,i know it is western culture,but if we make bamboo aroows into standards,it is quite complex;wegiht,spine,nodes distance and randown material,how we produce them like mould products( all is 100% size and same spine and same spine and same nodes distance?)jchocz wrote:
Shafts sorted by weight and guidance by node. Shafts finalize grinding, followed by heating equal. I use epoxy paint and hardened shafts equal. We will produce guidance arrows 30 (or more). Arrows classing under the weight of the final group with tolerance to 2 grams of weight.Orda Khan wrote:
First piece of advice I'd offer is forget spining the shafts and select by weight. As Ashbow has mentioned already, the west is too fixated with spine.
Sometimes the shafts are the same weight, equally spaced nodes and arrows fly poorly. It's more of the parameters that must be considered. It is best to sort the finished arrows.
but i can do,but may be price is 50% or similar as kuydo or korean bamboo arrows,my originial point is let more and more people to use,to open the door of the secrest of the bamboo arrow,as the door is closed for only rich person for many years and many person is very curis for bamboo arrow,now the price is so economic bamboo shafts is go into normal shoot hand,and many people is very happy and exciting when shoot bamboo arrows,bamboo arrows is released from rich person door to go to 99% shooters,i am very happy just think of it.
i am always confused for this:which is most import:spine or weight,i think till now people still argue for this points,also me is very confused for this,weight and spine what is more important as a bamboo arrows standardsOrda Khan wrote:
I agree, sometimes I think the shaft decides if it will be a good arrow. All I am saying is set of shafts of same/similar weight is better than same/similar spine.
The shafts from Mark Hill had a large difference in weight range, a considerable number of grams difference. No doubt he is an English traditional archer and arrow spine is so important, they try to treat bamboo the same as wood. Anyway, these shafts are ok, not absolutely straight (they needed some attention) and there does appear to be some evidence of fibre damage (faint cracks) from initial straightening on some.
My own is obviously limited in supply. The species appears to be lighter in weight, I was making finished arrows with total weight of around 400 grains, about 26 grams. I was able to get these very straight and my wife still has a small set that are perfectly straight after years. I prepared these by hand, as you say it is very hard work sanding each one.
The Tiger shafts I bought were very good, straighter than the others and the node spacing matched quite well. The weight was more evenly matched although I only had four to examine. They seem darker in colour so not sure if this is due to baking or just species. These shafts, in my opinion, are better than those from Mark Hill.
Jack's diagram shows good node placement, obviously the nodes will not line up perfectly. I agree with you about the length, 33 inches is much better as wooden shafts are 32" as standard and these are not long enough. Good node placement will allow shafts to be shortened anyway.
We'll see what others think but I would add selling by weight rather than spine.
the fact that Mark Hill is come from also my first period bamboo shafts which is made by chinese arrow bamboo( not tonkin bamboo),but we think it is thin bamboo wall and easy break and too tapered shape,and than we abandon this specie and to use tonkin bamboo which is thick wall and very stiff( i always want to make very stiff to let user many repeat use without damage)and little taper which look more beautiful.Orda Khan wrote:
Hello Tiger. A lot of posts, I'll see if I can answer some of your questions. The bamboo shafts I have used are Pseudosasa Japonica from my own garden, 'Tiger' shafts and those from Mark Hill.
The shafts from Mark Hill had a large difference in weight range, a considerable number of grams difference. No doubt he is an English traditional archer and arrow spine is so important, they try to treat bamboo the same as wood. Anyway, these shafts are ok, not absolutely straight (they needed some attention) and there does appear to be some evidence of fibre damage (faint cracks) from initial straightening on some.
My own is obviously limited in supply. The species appears to be lighter in weight, I was making finished arrows with total weight of around 400 grains, about 26 grams. I was able to get these very straight and my wife still has a small set that are perfectly straight after years. I prepared these by hand, as you say it is very hard work sanding each one.
The Tiger shafts I bought were very good, straighter than the others and the node spacing matched quite well. The weight was more evenly matched although I only had four to examine. They seem darker in colour so not sure if this is due to baking or just species. These shafts, in my opinion, are better than those from Mark Hill.
Jack's diagram shows good node placement, obviously the nodes will not line up perfectly. I agree with you about the length, 33 inches is much better as wooden shafts are 32" as standard and these are not long enough. Good node placement will allow shafts to be shortened anyway.
We'll see what others think but I would add selling by weight rather than spine.
but i also think weight is not so important compare with spine,as tonkin bamboo is hollow,when it fly,it is shown float fly like ship on water:even heavey tonkin weight,i image its fly speed still faster than same weight of wood.as wood is solid,it is sunk fly,not float,i shoort bamboo arrow,and it show almost same line and very faster speed;almost fly to atrget straightly(i shoot 20meter)
Jack's diagram is easy for me to realise,just to make them 33" long:to leave enough space for arrow maker to adjust their correct longth,that is also my originaa design thinking:to leave more space,as person have
vaired right longth of arrow.
if 30" will limit arrow maker room to satisfying vaired user requests.
,i think most important of Jack's diagram:to leave flat and smooth last nodes at least 20-30cm to make fletch become easy work:without the nodes which neasr nock 1.5-3cm:that is no meaning,as use thread or glue nock will enhence the arrow shafts enough:no split the nock even 1000time repeat shoot.also ytanditional horn insert nock is already flow into the market in future:this will become more easy for arrow maker:just put they loved fltech on and no do nock any more,also price is so economic:to save many time and money for nock making
When it comes to cast, a heavier arrow is going to suffer before a lighter one. The range at my club is 18m and there is little difference at this distance but 50m will be a different story. The higher you need to aim means the further you are off the target and therefore harder to aim.
You are right, the nock end can be lashed with insert nock and no need for a node close to the end. I also like at least 5 inches from point to first node. It is hard to straighten this are if the node is too close to the point.
33" long is ideal length for me.
I make my bamboo arrows (only bamboo arrows). I go to competitions in traditional archery (Czech Republic). Shoot a variety of disciplines - target shooting 20 and 25m shooting distance 70 m in standing figure, 120 m long-distance shooting at the figure, flow at different shooting distances, puta 90 meters. In the Czech Republic are better archers.Orda Khan wrote:
Weight is an important consideration for a number of reasons. The physical weight of the arrow against the strength of the bow. The ratio of 9 grains per pound of draw weight has long been considered ideal for the efficiency of the bow.
33" long is ideal length for me.
Interestingly - with Bamboo Arrows (shafts Tiger) I scored:
1) Target shooting 20 and 25 m, 10 arrows at each distance (61 and 62 points)
2) long-distance shooting 70 meters, 10 arrows (3 x action figures, 4 x evaluated Zone)
3) The shooting distance of 120 mm, 3 arrows (2 x action figures)
4) advancement shooting (the longest distance of 70m)
5) puta 90 meters, 10 arrows (3 x hit targets puta)
I think Bamboo Arrows (Tiger shafts as well as others) are good for arrows on the short and long distances. It requires more attention. I have shafts 33 "and can always make an arrow length of 29 to 31" close to the optimum (selection of shafts). Bamboo Arrows are certainly more tolerant than wood.
Japanese and Korean arrows are mostly tapered. Koreans and Japanese weigh their arrows to make them exact. The arrows I posted are weighed to several grains, not grams.
In the picture of the Korean shafts, in the original picture, the top is for the fletch. You can see that their measurements start there.
Longer is probably better so most customers will be happy. They are easy to cut down.
I like Chinese bamboo because they are thin and strong. But I want them to match. If a few in a bundle of 100 are too weak (not enough spine) they can be kept for other bow weights. But if they do not match (weight and nodes), there is no set.
Bamboo is a natural material. NEVER homogeneous in all directions. Can not therefore guarantee (even if the difference in the number of grain shafts and of the same distribution of nodes in the shafts) as well shooting arrows. Similarly, many years ago no one was able to unify the weight difference of grain. It is the deviation of modern times.jack farrell wrote:
Japanese and Korean arrows are mostly tapered. Koreans and Japanese weigh their arrows to make them exact. The arrows I posted are weighed to several grains, not grams.
If a few in a bundle of 100 are too weak (not enough spine) they can be kept for other bow weights. But if they do not match (weight and nodes), there is no set.
It is true that exports to Japan and Korea will be difficult. My understanding - can produce the good arrows.
Obviously you put a lot of energy into your work. I fully understand your commitment when it comes to selling "economy grade bamboo shafts to everybody". Your goal today - introduce those fairly inexpensive shafts to possibly largest number of archers might become a reason for a failure tomorrow.
Let me tell you why and it's very simple: we all here have one main thing in common - we appreciate quality and fine craftsmanship. That comes with price though and many of us here are willing to pay big bucks for handmade bows and arrows. Businesswise you can do two things: you can either continue to do what you're doing or take some good people's advise and go in little different direction - quality over quantity. As you see, Korean/Japanese shafts are neither cheap or easy to find. You have a unique chance to fill that gap on the market - supply good quality, matched shafts by dozens, offering those at fair price and widely available. Personally speaking I'd love to give a bamboo shafts a try but don't really want/can't buy those in 1000's randomly matched.
Bullshit. It's like the production car. Some automotive manufacturers produce luxury cars (per 100 000 USD or more) and do not exist. In contrast, such as Volkswagen (all cars) occupied a large part of the market. Normally sells cars in 15 to 30 thousand dollars. Who wants to shafts (1 piece for $ 25) the shafts can be ordered in Japan or Korea. In the manufacture of arrows are to be expected with the destruction, loss of arrows, and I want to shoot arrows. I do not have them just for decoration - with its exact weight and spacing of nodes (plus a lot of money).Daniel wrote:
Your goal today - introduce those fairly inexpensive shafts to possibly largest number of archers might become a reason for a failure tomorrow.
Let me tell you why and it's very simple: we all here have one main thing in common - we appreciate quality and fine craftsmanship. That comes with price though and many of us here are willing to pay big bucks for handmade bows and arrows.
Many archers shoot at distances up to 20-30 meters in the field (3D Shooting), where there is destruction of the arrows. What is an arrow at price of 100 USD?
jchocz wrote:
Bullshit. It's like the production car. Some automotive manufacturers produce luxury cars (per 100 000 USD or more) and do not exist. In contrast, such as Volkswagen (all cars) occupied a large part of the market. Normally sells cars in 15 to 30 thousand dollars. Who wants to shafts (1 piece for $ 25) the shafts can be ordered in Japan or Korea. In the manufacture of arrows are to be expected with the destruction, loss of arrows, and I want to shoot arrows. I do not have them just for decoration - with its exact weight and spacing of nodes (plus a lot of money).Daniel wrote:
Your goal today - introduce those fairly inexpensive shafts to possibly largest number of archers might become a reason for a failure tomorrow.
Let me tell you why and it's very simple: we all here have one main thing in common - we appreciate quality and fine craftsmanship. That comes with price though and many of us here are willing to pay big bucks for handmade bows and arrows.
Many archers shoot at distances up to 20-30 meters in the field (3D Shooting), where there is destruction of the arrows. What is an arrow at price of 100 USD?
After discuss with some experts,i decide to do bamboo arrow shafts like wolkswagen below:
1)84cm long(33")30-92# above:end nodes part(near nock end)is 15cm for easy making fletch,diameter from 7-11cm,and weight from 25-40grams/pc
2)100cm long(39.4")35-92# above:end nodes part(near nock end)is 18cm for easy making fletch,diameter from 7.5-11cm,and weight from 30-45grams/pc
3)105cm-110cm long(41-43") for training kuydo use:65-92# above:end nodes part(near nock end)is 20cm for easy making fletch,diameter from 8.5-12cm,and weight from 35-50grams/pc
price is little higher than now.
i already make future specification now and concentrate on spine,i can do light weight:to use chinese arrow bamboo to make,but they are living bent and difficult to starighten thin wall and easy to break,i use still tonking bamboo.let japanese and korean produce light weight,i do walkswagen bamboo shafts.Orda Khan wrote:
Weight is an important consideration for a number of reasons. The physical weight of the arrow against the strength of the bow. The ratio of 9 grains per pound of draw weight has long been considered ideal for the efficiency of the bow.
When it comes to cast, a heavier arrow is going to suffer before a lighter one. The range at my club is 18m and there is little difference at this distance but 50m will be a different story. The higher you need to aim means the further you are off the target and therefore harder to aim.
You are right, the nock end can be lashed with insert nock and no need for a node close to the end. I also like at least 5 inches from point to first node. It is hard to straighten this are if the node is too close to the point.
33" long is ideal length for me.
wommm,you get great results,like real master shooter.jchocz wrote:
I make my bamboo arrows (only bamboo arrows). I go to competitions in traditional archery (Czech Republic). Shoot a variety of disciplines - target shooting 20 and 25m shooting distance 70 m in standing figure, 120 m long-distance shooting at the figure, flow at different shooting distances, puta 90 meters. In the Czech Republic are better archers.Orda Khan wrote:
Weight is an important consideration for a number of reasons. The physical weight of the arrow against the strength of the bow. The ratio of 9 grains per pound of draw weight has long been considered ideal for the efficiency of the bow.
33" long is ideal length for me.
Interestingly - with Bamboo Arrows (shafts Tiger) I scored:
1) Target shooting 20 and 25 m, 10 arrows at each distance (61 and 62 points)
2) long-distance shooting 70 meters, 10 arrows (3 x action figures, 4 x evaluated Zone)
3) The shooting distance of 120 mm, 3 arrows (2 x action figures)
4) advancement shooting (the longest distance of 70m)
5) puta 90 meters, 10 arrows (3 x hit targets puta)
I think Bamboo Arrows (Tiger shafts as well as others) are good for arrows on the short and long distances. It requires more attention. I have shafts 33 "and can always make an arrow length of 29 to 31" close to the optimum (selection of shafts). Bamboo Arrows are certainly more tolerant than wood.
bamboo arrows is also percte choice for real hunting,my usa friend us e bamboo arrow to shoot big hug very suceed.
i make new specification already for last nodes long,in fact all shafts is already done in such space.jack farrell wrote:
Stiven Tiger; Koreans will not go to your bamboo because they use a different kind and the customer can see the difference. Japanese are exactly the same. But you can still learn from them and adapt if you find it helpful.
Japanese and Korean arrows are mostly tapered. Koreans and Japanese weigh their arrows to make them exact. The arrows I posted are weighed to several grains, not grams.
In the picture of the Korean shafts, in the original picture, the top is for the fletch. You can see that their measurements start there.
Longer is probably better so most customers will be happy. They are easy to cut down.
I like Chinese bamboo because they are thin and strong. But I want them to match. If a few in a bundle of 100 are too weak (not enough spine) they can be kept for other bow weights. But if they do not match (weight and nodes), there is no set.
i want to make shafts like walkswagen:to 99% person,japanese and korean is belong to luxuy cars,i can do them same as they done,i can do,but i want to leave them something to eat,if you have enough money you buy from them.they make bamboo arrow for rich guys.i insist on my style.
In fact,i can do all waht japanese and korean done:choice light weight bamboo and straight them making 1 hole and polish them by hand totally,and match each weight and spine and devide into group and sell in dozen and sell may be only 1/3 -1/2th of their price,i don't like follow other's step and take their food out of their table.Daniel wrote:
Tiger,
Obviously you put a lot of energy into your work. I fully understand your commitment when it comes to selling "economy grade bamboo shafts to everybody". Your goal today - introduce those fairly inexpensive shafts to possibly largest number of archers might become a reason for a failure tomorrow.
Let me tell you why and it's very simple: we all here have one main thing in common - we appreciate quality and fine craftsmanship. That comes with price though and many of us here are willing to pay big bucks for handmade bows and arrows. Businesswise you can do two things: you can either continue to do what you're doing or take some good people's advise and go in little different direction - quality over quantity. As you see, Korean/Japanese shafts are neither cheap or easy to find. You have a unique chance to fill that gap on the market - supply good quality, matched shafts by dozens, offering those at fair price and widely available. Personally speaking I'd love to give a bamboo shafts a try but don't really want/can't buy those in 1000's randomly matched.
i do my style:like walkswagen and sell them in bulk and for 99% person,of course i already make new specifiction :
1)84cm long(33")30-92# above:end nodes part(near nock end)is 15cm for easy making fletch,diameter from 7-11mm,and weight from 25-40grams/pc
2)100cm long(39.4")35-92# above:end nodes part(near nock end)is 18cm for easy making fletch,diameter from 7.5-11mm,and weight from 30-45grams/pc
3)105cm-110cm long(41-43") for training kuydo use:65-92# above:end nodes part(near nock end)is 20cm for easy making fletch,diameter from 8.5-12mm,and weight from 35-50grams/pc
price is little higher than now.
Jchocz, strong word my friend. You see, Tiger asked many Atarnos for advice including me. I am only presenting my point of view and being Tiger's potential customer in the future I think I have a right to do so. I have no problem with criticism, but please don't act like you know it all, because you don't.
Yes, it was a strong word. If it offends, I apologize. Good shafts are required. There are other parameters - points, nocks, right taper shafts, balancing - the CG shafts, rods and equality of other parameters. I had to make 300 arrows or more than the arrows to use (although I just shafts sorted by weight and distance of nodes). It is best to make more arrows, and arrows to sort finished (according to the actual characteristics of the shot). Not long ago I devoted much attention to shafts (weight and spacing of nodes) - Finished arrows flew differently. Today scratchbuild better arrows - sfafts not completely straight when the weight hangs scattering and various node distance.Daniel wrote:
"Bullshit"
Jchocz, strong word my friend. ...I have no problem with criticism, but please don't act like you know it all, because you don't.
In the distant past did not have the digital scales, timers SPIN and other tools of modern times. Koreans produce usable arrows for fighting, hunting and shooting friendly. When you look at the videos on Youtube, so you can see the production (primitive measurement hmotnosti?, primitive straightening shafts and above skill). No accurate measurement of the distance of nodes and weights. Therefore, I say - now produce bamboo shafts provide good arrows for many people a good price. Everyone can try, whether it be his hobby. Why should it be only for a few people?
If anyone has an extra high demands and a lot of money can buy shafts in Japan or Korea.
agree,on archery field,too much to learn fo me:we say :study for total life till you can't move anymore,nobady perfect in this worldDaniel wrote:
"Bullshit"
Jchocz, strong word my friend. You see, Tiger asked many Atarnos for advice including me. I am only presenting my point of view and being Tiger's potential customer in the future I think I have a right to do so. I have no problem with criticism, but please don't act like you know it all, because you don't.
tiger
great,japanese and korean already produced luxry bamboo arrow shafts for rich and few people,my stiuation make me produce wolkswagen style bamboo arrow shafts for most user,of course i need improve quality always:i already decide in future i make enough space on last node end to let people make easy fletching.also still economic price!!!jchocz wrote:
Yes, it was a strong word. If it offends, I apologize. Good shafts are required. There are other parameters - points, nocks, right taper shafts, balancing - the CG shafts, rods and equality of other parameters. I had to make 300 arrows or more than the arrows to use (although I just shafts sorted by weight and distance of nodes). It is best to make more arrows, and arrows to sort finished (according to the actual characteristics of the shot). Not long ago I devoted much attention to shafts (weight and spacing of nodes) - Finished arrows flew differently. Today scratchbuild better arrows - sfafts not completely straight when the weight hangs scattering and various node distance.Daniel wrote:
"Bullshit"
Jchocz, strong word my friend. ...I have no problem with criticism, but please don't act like you know it all, because you don't.
In the distant past did not have the digital scales, timers SPIN and other tools of modern times. Koreans produce usable arrows for fighting, hunting and shooting friendly. When you look at the videos on Youtube, so you can see the production (primitive measurement hmotnosti?, primitive straightening shafts and above skill). No accurate measurement of the distance of nodes and weights. Therefore, I say - now produce bamboo shafts provide good arrows for many people a good price. Everyone can try, whether it be his hobby. Why should it be only for a few people?
If anyone has an extra high demands and a lot of money can buy shafts in Japan or Korea.
even we can do japnese and korean style:making bamboo arrows not need very higher technoloy,just need good material and enough patience,all person have 1 head and 2 hand,and we have better material than japan and korean,but we still insisit on our style:finally shoot just for relax,hunting or justfor fun or life style etc vaired aim.
and bamboo belong to normall plant material,it is not gold or diamand,so,bamboo arrows should for most person,not only for few and rich people game.
Used Korean arrows sell for much less but can still be measured, weighed and used for comparison.
You have a right to be proud of your product. It is something that archers can use; not identical to Japanese or Korean but with enough good attributes to make the arrows useful. I will look for your offers on ebay and if I can find some bamboo which can make good quality arrows, I will try them.
You know (or maybe you did not, if you are a young man) that Volkswagen autos used to be air cooled, no radiators. The car was very inexpensive and fun to drive but the engines would not last long at all. The company almost went out of business but now all their cars are water cooled like other cars and they are still doing business.
The Japanese taught the world how reliable a car can be.
if you show me their photos,i remeber show me the kuydo shafts before and i can't find out big diffirence,just vaired longth,i can do 105-110cm long,try my bamboo arrow and then you will have real feeling what is bamboo arrows.jack farrell wrote:
Tiger; For something like $100 or $150 you can buy on ebay a used set of four Japanese handmade bamboo arrows which originally cost more than $1000. As a craftsman I find these invaluable as models of perfect arrows.
Used Korean arrows sell for much less but can still be measured, weighed and used for comparison.
You have a right to be proud of your product. It is something that archers can use; not identical to Japanese or Korean but with enough good attributes to make the arrows useful. I will look for your offers on ebay and if I can find some bamboo which can make good quality arrows, I will try them.
You know (or maybe you did not, if you are a young man) that Volkswagen autos used to be air cooled, no radiators. The car was very inexpensive and fun to drive but the engines would not last long at all. The company almost went out of business but now all their cars are water cooled like other cars and they are still doing business.
The Japanese taught the world how reliable a car can be.
i don't know japanese yumi bow,but just look photos which i know at least it is not possible to take it on plane or car to travel anywhere to hunting or just for funning shoot.it looks too big size.
i drive KIA car and next year want to change to honda ordesy which can let me take many bows and arrows inside the car(MPV)
but in fact in china,full of volkswagen on the street and chinese like these car:less quality problems and medium price car and germany sell in china may be no.1 volkswagen ,then japan and and usa and europain cars.
i always try to improve my shafts quality,i don't let people said:tiger's shafts is cheaper and poor quality,i hope people say:womm,it is very nice shafts even better than japan and korean bamboo shafts,at least the price is much better and it is very straight and stiff enough o shoot many times whiout damagejack farrell wrote:
There is an American saying; The bitterness of poor quality lives on after the sweetness of low price is gone.
Though, most beginner here start with aluminum or fiberglass arrow which is durable and cheap for beginner, and later move up to bamboo arrow when they increase their skill. I do not know how Korean bamboo species is, but
bamboo here is thin wall because of the cold winter, and so they are stronger per diameter than warm weather bamboo of same wall thickness. (this is what I am told by arrow maker) This makes the bamboo much lighter per spine, so arrow performance rises. However, because it has thin wall it is more easily damaged than stiventiger bamboo so not good for beginner who often break/loose arrow from miss shot.
I think, bamboo is better solution to using fiberglass and aluminum arrow. It is natural, replenish able material and is more eco friendly. Also I believe a bamboo arrow is more forgiving to shoot than these modern arrow material for beginner. So, if a durable, mass produced bamboo arrow can be provided at low cost and some sort of matching, I think it will become very popular and will still leave room for higher performance/matched bamboo arrows from Korea and Japan. After all, everyone needs to start low when learning, but if there is only expensive equipment available there will be fewer wanting/able to learn. And people who go through a lot of arrows will enjoy having a good supply source from which they can order from.
Its like toilet paper, you can buy softest, best quality available, but when it runs out you wont care whether its top quality or not, you just need some, and a lot.
anyway my design of bamboo arrow style and prcie is for mostly person including beginner and often trainning also they can choice some best one for take part in the game to win the chaimpionship is also possible.Alex S. wrote:
The thing about Japanese arrows being so expensive is because they respect the quality of work. I know there are many arrow maker that, if had materials, could make Japanese quality level arrows. Though, because there are so few and the fact each arrow is hand/custom made per customer, the cost is more. You can buy custom made bamboo arrows here for 2~400 USD, the price rises with arrow length and fletching type. Japanese now using turkey feather because it is more durable, cheaper, and in big supply so good for beginner arrow but it does not fly as smooth as thinner eagle or hawk feather which is in low supply so much more expensive.
Though, most beginner here start with aluminum or fiberglass arrow which is durable and cheap for beginner, and later move up to bamboo arrow when they increase their skill. I do not know how Korean bamboo species is, but
bamboo here is thin wall because of the cold winter, and so they are stronger per diameter than warm weather bamboo of same wall thickness. (this is what I am told by arrow maker) This makes the bamboo much lighter per spine, so arrow performance rises. However, because it has thin wall it is more easily damaged than stiventiger bamboo so not good for beginner who often break/loose arrow from miss shot.
I think, bamboo is better solution to using fiberglass and aluminum arrow. It is natural, replenish able material and is more eco friendly. Also I believe a bamboo arrow is more forgiving to shoot than these modern arrow material for beginner. So, if a durable, mass produced bamboo arrow can be provided at low cost and some sort of matching, I think it will become very popular and will still leave room for higher performance/matched bamboo arrows from Korea and Japan. After all, everyone needs to start low when learning, but if there is only expensive equipment available there will be fewer wanting/able to learn. And people who go through a lot of arrows will enjoy having a good supply source from which they can order from.
Its like toilet paper, you can buy softest, best quality available, but when it runs out you wont care whether its top quality or not, you just need some, and a lot.
my bamboo shafts style is look nice like art and shoot faster speed and very thicker wall and stiff enough and many time to repeat shoot without damage and economic price and let more people to use bamboo arrow for hunting,trainning and shoot for funning and relax etc.
also many person buy and sell my shafts for making them become rich guy also.i trust all people love clean money
Mayhill Archery sells tapered shafts from China but is based in the UK. The nodes appear to be randomly placed on shafts which are cured, tempered straightened and smoothed, spined but not weighed and cut to length and grouped by diameter of the large end (foot). $2 each plus delivery.
Kashi, from China, sells Tonkin bamboo shafts by length, diameter, and spine but no weights. He makes no reference to taper, or node placement or weight. $1.35 to 1.50 each delivered to USA. These are cured, tempered, smoothed, straightened.
Dennis from Alabama (USA) sells green arundinaria by length, notes node placement and diameters for .50 each plus delivery. One customer was happy, another reported excessive taper(?)
Tiger sells cured, tempered, straightened and smoothed Tonkin bamboos from China. He states lengths, weights and spines. He does not state node placement. Price is about $1.40 and up delivered in the USA.
Tiger's hex shafts are assembled of six pieces like a fish pole. Sold by length, diameter, weight and spine. delivered price is about $2.44 each piece USA.
Mayhill, Kashi and Tiger shafts appear to be targeted to the field archer. They should prove useful to those archers as well as those shooting bows at least #55 or 60. Suggestions to use plastic nocks and lack of node placement indicate their use at targets closer than 50m where loss is likely. Indicated weights are a bit heavy for the target archer especially in competition or at ranges exceeding 50m
Tiger's hex shaft might need further research and development. The beauty of fish poles made by this technique is the artistic staggering of the individual node sections which make up the shaft. Tiger's hexshaft appear to have the nodes grouped together reminiscent of a natural bamboo. The stated weight to spine makes natural bamboo shafts the clear favorite for weight, spine and price.
For myself, and look as I did, there was nothing offered which could produce a 22 gram average weight shaft for target purposes. Even if I ignore the spine stated, all shafts appeared to be overweight for the #40-50 draw weight.
Strong bow types should find the heavy shafts quite perfect, if node placement is unimportant.
anyway i can pride to say i am first designer and producer,very simple story to design the bamboo arrow shafts:each morning when i wash my myself the wash case name is "arrow",suddenly 1 idea go into my mind:i can produce bamboo arrow shafts,then i spend 3-4 month and lot of money to study and reseach bamboo specie and choice best tonkin bamboo and make perfect producing process and start to produce them:first buyer is markhill which i produce use arrow bamboo which is thin and light but easy to broken,then i like strong and stiff tonkin bamboo,and then after 2 years selling.jack farrell wrote:
After spending some time cruising ebay for bamboo arrow shafts, I would like to offer my assessment.There are four sellers and five products;
Mayhill Archery sells tapered shafts from China but is based in the UK. The nodes appear to be randomly placed on shafts which are cured, tempered straightened and smoothed, spined but not weighed and cut to length and grouped by diameter of the large end (foot). $2 each plus delivery.
Kashi, from China, sells Tonkin bamboo shafts by length, diameter, and spine but no weights. He makes no reference to taper, or node placement or weight. $1.35 to 1.50 each delivered to USA. These are cured, tempered, smoothed, straightened.
Dennis from Alabama (USA) sells green arundinaria by length, notes node placement and diameters for .50 each plus delivery. One customer was happy, another reported excessive taper(?)
Tiger sells cured, tempered, straightened and smoothed Tonkin bamboos from China. He states lengths, weights and spines. He does not state node placement. Price is about $1.40 and up delivered in the USA.
Tiger's hex shafts are assembled of six pieces like a fish pole. Sold by length, diameter, weight and spine. delivered price is about $2.44 each piece USA.
Mayhill, Kashi and Tiger shafts appear to be targeted to the field archer. They should prove useful to those archers as well as those shooting bows at least #55 or 60. Suggestions to use plastic nocks and lack of node placement indicate their use at targets closer than 50m where loss is likely. Indicated weights are a bit heavy for the target archer especially in competition or at ranges exceeding 50m
Tiger's hex shaft might need further research and development. The beauty of fish poles made by this technique is the artistic staggering of the individual node sections which make up the shaft. Tiger's hexshaft appear to have the nodes grouped together reminiscent of a natural bamboo. The stated weight to spine makes natural bamboo shafts the clear favorite for weight, spine and price.
For myself, and look as I did, there was nothing offered which could produce a 22 gram average weight shaft for target purposes. Even if I ignore the spine stated, all shafts appeared to be overweight for the #40-50 draw weight.
Strong bow types should find the heavy shafts quite perfect, if node placement is unimportant.
Kashi start to coy my shafts,i am angry that he copy my arrow shafts,but i leave it finally:to leave something to eat for others,not eat along,that is chinese culture,if i am western people,may be i will go to lawyer to as kashi stop copy,but i thin kthis will watse a lot of moeny and not worth to do it.leave him eat soemthing,at least he is not cheat and get clean money from his work.
above is real story:fill of risk and corage to produce bamboo arrows shafts, i know nothing when i design bamboo arrow shafts including size,weight and spine etc.i know may be i will lose money and time,same story for bamboo fly rod design and producing:risk and corage is always first element when you want to do some new item,lucky 80% of my risk is suceed afterso many years life struggle and effort.
Sellers (Tiger and others) routinely sell bamboo shafts for bows to 35 lbs. I have the bow 45 lb (Hwarang) and normally shoot at longer distances - more than 50 meters (70 to 120mm) with arrows weighing 25 grams. I have even weaker bows (30 and 35 lb) and thicker (55 and 70 lb) for tuning arrows. I prefer shooting with a bow 45 lb (Hwarang) and 55 lb (Kaya). The lower bows (less than 35 lb) are for children and weak women (really..the competition woman in the Czech use normally the bows from 40 to 45 lb). :)jack farrell wrote:
Mayhill, Kashi and Tiger shafts appear to be targeted to the field archer. They should prove useful to those archers as well as those shooting bows at least #55 or 60. Suggestions to use plastic nocks and lack of node placement indicate their use at targets closer than 50m where loss is likely. Indicated weights are a bit heavy for the target archer especially in competition or at ranges exceeding 50m
For myself, and look as I did, there was nothing offered which could produce a 22 gram average weight shaft for target purposes. Even if I ignore the spine stated, all shafts appeared to be overweight for the #40-50 draw weight.
The best rule is - the weight of the arrow should be from 8 to 10 grain / lb bow (optimal is 9 grain / lb). Arrow weight 22 grams is suitable for a bow from 35-40 lbs. When you shoot the arrow with a lower weight, the results are microscopic cracks in the core of the bow (wood and bamboo). It reduces the life of the bow. Therefore I recommend - Do not shoot the arrows with weighing less than 8 grain / lb. Shooters fot Flight shooting disciplines confirms that the bow sometimes last only a few shots ... (Sometimes one).
My experience - I suggest you choose bamboo shafts for bows of 5 to 10 lb stronger (working shafts cutting, painting ...). In the first set I bought (Tiger shafts) 300 pieces of 45-50 lbs. At least half allowed to make arrows 20-25 g (29-31 inches) to 35 lb bows. There is problem with a little weight of the shafts because of too thin bamboo walls (lower resistance). I recomand to make the arrows weighing less than 20 grams (only if you do not shoot into the sand ...).
Recommendation - Arrow weight grain set 9 / lb (extends the life of the bow), The SPINE of the finished arrows must be more by 5 to 10 lbs (flight qualities of arrows). The finished arrows are sorted to the sets with weight difference to 1 to 2 grams (3 grams difference is still good).
The difference of weight shafts is very important but Much more important is the weight difference of finished arrows in one set!
But if I buy arrow shafts, I expect them to meet my specifications. Look at the arrows I posted on page 2. Some think that arrows like this are for decoration. Actually they are now about three years old. The original set was 7 arrows, we shoot 6 in our contest and one extra. One arrow was not good enough and finally broke at the fletch node. Jim took the other 6 to Korea to compete with last year. Another arrow broke because the Koreans were using plywood backstops, there was a metal goal post and even a rock wall!
He made a replacement arrow and changed all the fletchings because we shoot every week and they finally got too frayed. You will notice that the fletches are hand cut from goose.
I selected these shafts out of a bundle of about 300 sticks and in fact they are seconds because these were his first arrows. On starting I do not use sticks which weigh more than one gram different than eachother. Sometimes tiny weights are glued under the wood insert nocks or at the point. We then grind down the points so that the finished arrows weigh one or two GRAINS from eachother, not grams.
If I shoot arrows which weigh three grams different, I can tell at only 25M. Never mind 50m.
When I say 22 grams I do not mean the arrow but the shaft. The point and nock add weight.
For a long time I shot 24 gram shafts. But in Korea I noticed that at long distance, it was not the best. So I made a set at 20 grams shafts. These were hard to control at first and then I got used to them and now they shoot the same as the others but shoot flatter at range. They don't break, the bow has not broken and everything is better.
Actually I think that bamboo allows a lighter spine, not heavier. I shoot these arrows on my stick bows and hornbows. No problem.
What I was asking Tiger for privately was raw shafts. He may be grinding too much of the skin off to flatten and sacrifices spine so has to make it up with weight. I will never know if he is unable to sell me some of his raw sticks.
This is what I am trying to say. The details are important to me. The product is far better tuned for me.
YOU ARE SCIENTIST OF ARROW,here we don't think so detail,just for fun or just looking for good feeling when you shoot and choice best feeling arrows for competetion.jchocz wrote:
Sellers (Tiger and others) routinely sell bamboo shafts for bows to 35 lbs. I have the bow 45 lb (Hwarang) and normally shoot at longer distances - more than 50 meters (70 to 120mm) with arrows weighing 25 grams. I have even weaker bows (30 and 35 lb) and thicker (55 and 70 lb) for tuning arrows. I prefer shooting with a bow 45 lb (Hwarang) and 55 lb (Kaya). The lower bows (less than 35 lb) are for children and weak women (really..the competition woman in the Czech use normally the bows from 40 to 45 lb). :)jack farrell wrote:
Mayhill, Kashi and Tiger shafts appear to be targeted to the field archer. They should prove useful to those archers as well as those shooting bows at least #55 or 60. Suggestions to use plastic nocks and lack of node placement indicate their use at targets closer than 50m where loss is likely. Indicated weights are a bit heavy for the target archer especially in competition or at ranges exceeding 50m
For myself, and look as I did, there was nothing offered which could produce a 22 gram average weight shaft for target purposes. Even if I ignore the spine stated, all shafts appeared to be overweight for the #40-50 draw weight.
The best rule is - the weight of the arrow should be from 8 to 10 grain / lb bow (optimal is 9 grain / lb). Arrow weight 22 grams is suitable for a bow from 35-40 lbs. When you shoot the arrow with a lower weight, the results are microscopic cracks in the core of the bow (wood and bamboo). It reduces the life of the bow. Therefore I recommend - Do not shoot the arrows with weighing less than 8 grain / lb. Shooters fot Flight shooting disciplines confirms that the bow sometimes last only a few shots ... (Sometimes one).
My experience - I suggest you choose bamboo shafts for bows of 5 to 10 lb stronger (working shafts cutting, painting ...). In the first set I bought (Tiger shafts) 300 pieces of 45-50 lbs. At least half allowed to make arrows 20-25 g (29-31 inches) to 35 lb bows. There is problem with a little weight of the shafts because of too thin bamboo walls (lower resistance). I recomand to make the arrows weighing less than 20 grams (only if you do not shoot into the sand ...).
Recommendation - Arrow weight grain set 9 / lb (extends the life of the bow), The SPINE of the finished arrows must be more by 5 to 10 lbs (flight qualities of arrows). The finished arrows are sorted to the sets with weight difference to 1 to 2 grams (3 grams difference is still good).
The difference of weight shafts is very important but Much more important is the weight difference of finished arrows in one set!
,not so many data,it is western people culture;make all into data or scientic analisys and try to make standards,it is very fun
tiger
we get rid of bamboo skin:jack farrell wrote:
jchocz; It seems like you have experimented and found the arrows which are comfortable for you. This is good and I do not want to try to change your formula.
But if I buy arrow shafts, I expect them to meet my specifications. Look at the arrows I posted on page 2. Some think that arrows like this are for decoration. Actually they are now about three years old. The original set was 7 arrows, we shoot 6 in our contest and one extra. One arrow was not good enough and finally broke at the fletch node. Jim took the other 6 to Korea to compete with last year. Another arrow broke because the Koreans were using plywood backstops, there was a metal goal post and even a rock wall!
He made a replacement arrow and changed all the fletchings because we shoot every week and they finally got too frayed. You will notice that the fletches are hand cut from goose.
I selected these shafts out of a bundle of about 300 sticks and in fact they are seconds because these were his first arrows. On starting I do not use sticks which weigh more than one gram different than eachother. Sometimes tiny weights are glued under the wood insert nocks or at the point. We then grind down the points so that the finished arrows weigh one or two GRAINS from eachother, not grams.
If I shoot arrows which weigh three grams different, I can tell at only 25M. Never mind 50m.
When I say 22 grams I do not mean the arrow but the shaft. The point and nock add weight.
For a long time I shot 24 gram shafts. But in Korea I noticed that at long distance, it was not the best. So I made a set at 20 grams shafts. These were hard to control at first and then I got used to them and now they shoot the same as the others but shoot flatter at range. They don't break, the bow has not broken and everything is better.
Actually I think that bamboo allows a lighter spine, not heavier. I shoot these arrows on my stick bows and hornbows. No problem.
What I was asking Tiger for privately was raw shafts. He may be grinding too much of the skin off to flatten and sacrifices spine so has to make it up with weight. I will never know if he is unable to sell me some of his raw sticks.
This is what I am trying to say. The details are important to me. The product is far better tuned for me.
1)to let bamboo become very smooth,so,almost nothing resistance when it fly,and bamboo skin will also refuse varnish absorb,so,it look ugly
2)sand out all skin also make it heating uniform:same spine with all direction for 1 shaft,so,this points is more scientic way than japan or korean bamboo shafts making,yes?
3)without bamboo skin is uniform carbonization ,it looks great class colour ,important is spine uniforn,and this points is may be more advanced skill than japan and korean,i don't see them do bamboo shafts with carbonization process,just heat and make them straighten.and make hole to leave air pass.i consider our process is more scientific and advanced ,but many people don't know it
Most of the archery I do is field archery, my club is a field club and the maximum distance for traditional is 50m. I realise that flight or target type arrows would be a little more fragile in these situations, but in most circumstances, anything that hits the target should be intact. Our course designers lay courses with all bow types in mind so you can probably imagine the selection of shots.
Whereas I'd love to be as strong as I was when I was younger, I have to face facts and realise that 45 lbs is my limit if I want to avoid injury. Now jchocz has mentioned the formula for matching arrows to bow and this is the formula that I have used and talked about earlier. I generally rounded up to 10 ish with my arrows weighing 400 - 430 grains. These could cope with all the distances from 5m - 50m.
This current set from Mark Hill are going down in number way too fast!! I mentioned previously that some appeared to have chrysals and having worked raw shafts myself, it appears to be caused during straightening. I've done it myself, taking out a kink ... oops, too much.
Anyway, three arrows have snapped hitting the target at 18m. These arrows are 500+ grains, heavier than my own Japonica arrows, they should not be breaking.
Tiger has posted that he switched to tonkin because the original species he used proved too weak, it seems to be the case.
I am quite happy with the four Tiger shafts I have and they make very nice arrows for day to day use.
I agree with you, when purchasing quality shafts for a quality set of arrows, the shafts should be matched, weight, nodes, etc. Likewise it depends on your archery. Shooting target is repetition and minor things become far more important as opposed to field where no two shots are the same.
I don't think too much outer skin is being removed, there are some patches that still remain on one or two shafts.
If the shafts are somewhat overlength, the nodes at 8" from the nock can be ligned up. Do you allow some tolerance on the placement of the remaining nodes of the shafts?jack farrell wrote:
But if I buy arrow shafts, I expect them to meet my specifications. Look at the arrows I posted on page 2.
Daniel
So I start by lining up the fletch nodes. I suggested 8" so my leftovers could accommodate arrows for others which are longer than mine. I use 7" which is plenty of space for the fletches and all lashings to clear and not interfere.
As for the other nodes, I just make do.
My own arrows, picky as I am, are inferior to both Japanese and Korean. I have seen a Korean master using a gold scale to weigh his arrows. And I like Tonkin cane which will not pass the spin test without removing excessive amounts of wood.
I have about 100 shafts weighing 27+/- 0.5 grams. Looks like a tolerance of +/- 1 inch makes the difference between like 12 groups of 8 shafts or 5 groups of about 20 shafts.
I will probably group align the middle node because that is were they bend most when shot. I am curious to see how it works, but given my beginner's technique I am not sure I will be able to tell.
Daniel
i have 40000pcs shafts in stock,when i sold them out,i plan to do only 8" at end of nock,but now my stock is 70-80% shafts already make 8" smooth at end of nock.only 20-30% are randonly node placement.Daniel T. wrote:
If the shafts are somewhat overlength, the nodes at 8" from the nock can be ligned up. Do you allow some tolerance on the placement of the remaining nodes of the shafts?jack farrell wrote:
But if I buy arrow shafts, I expect them to meet my specifications. Look at the arrows I posted on page 2.
Daniel
look,korean make huge money from selling his bamboo arrows,i have less money,he use gold scale,we use just electric scale to weight something.jack farrell wrote:
Daniel; If one had hundreds and hundreds of shafts from the same field then one could match up all the nodes. This is a luxury I do not have.
So I start by lining up the fletch nodes. I suggested 8" so my leftovers could accommodate arrows for others which are longer than mine. I use 7" which is plenty of space for the fletches and all lashings to clear and not interfere.
As for the other nodes, I just make do.
My own arrows, picky as I am, are inferior to both Japanese and Korean. I have seen a Korean master using a gold scale to weigh his arrows. And I like Tonkin cane which will not pass the spin test without removing excessive amounts of wood.
Sorry for the bad quality of the picture, I took it with my cell phone under poor illumination.
Daniel
Are you going to make target arrows or field arrows of them?
I am going to make them.. well, arrows.. What is the difference between a field and a target arrow?
Orda, from what I know about bamboo, this is the same as putting the nock at the thinner end, right?
Daniel
A target arrow would be shot at an established range where loosing the arrow would be unlikely. The main loss would be from arrows colliding with arrows already stuck in the target. These arrows would last a very long time and all one's skill and materials could be expended with little risk.
If one went hunting, these arrows would be in another class, heavy, perfect, and very expendable.
You could select some target arrows from the group before proceeding.
Are you having difficulty telling the head (nock end) from the foot (point end) ?
All within one gram weight is amazing. Congratulations Stiven Tiger.
About the orientation, I am just not sure if it is important. There is only about a difference of 1mm in diameter between head and foot, at least on the few where I measured.
I got 500 shafts, spined 60-65#. I have not established a precise count, but about 400 of them weighed from 26 to 29 grams (rounded, about 100 of each weight) the rest is mostly 25 and 30 grams and some weigh more or less than that. I have not checked the nodes on the other weight groups.
Daniel
i said i always improve the quality without end,so,buyers are always surprice to see my quality are amazing quality improved always each deal.jack farrell wrote:
Daniel; A field arrow would be shot in a field, in the grass or in the woods. A miss could end in loosing that arrow. A contest at field (possibly 3-d) targets in the woods would end in missing arrows. You would have to balance quality against cost.
A target arrow would be shot at an established range where loosing the arrow would be unlikely. The main loss would be from arrows colliding with arrows already stuck in the target. These arrows would last a very long time and all one's skill and materials could be expended with little risk.
If one went hunting, these arrows would be in another class, heavy, perfect, and very expendable.
You could select some target arrows from the group before proceeding.
Are you having difficulty telling the head (nock end) from the foot (point end) ?
All within one gram weight is amazing. Congratulations Stiven Tiger.
one thing is confirmed,when we produce more and more,the quality is better and better,we say:more pratice become experts and easily and naturally and autumaticllyDaniel T. wrote:
I had not thought of that. Good point! I will certainly need some target shafts for winter practice, it is turning cold already.
About the orientation, I am just not sure if it is important. There is only about a difference of 1mm in diameter between head and foot, at least on the few where I measured.
I got 500 shafts, spined 60-65#. I have not established a precise count, but about 400 of them weighed from 26 to 29 grams (rounded, about 100 of each weight) the rest is mostly 25 and 30 grams and some weigh more or less than that. I have not checked the nodes on the other weight groups.
Daniel
advice you should first add arrow head and fletch and than balance them,but when you shoot,you should up little bow.yes?jack farrell wrote:
Daniel; Find the center of balance and see if the foot is heavier than the head. It should be.
vaired disctance shoot you should up little varied and find out best precise position and more practice to fix the position and adjust it become finally shoot ar center.right?
Judging by the average weight of those shafts, there is little if any difference between shafts of 45-50 and 60-65.
It seems to be luck of the draw how robust each arrow is. With two misses yesterday, from a 42# Hwarang I had two results ...
First miss was an inch over the target into plywood :shock: Digging the arrow out took quite some time, half an inch in and I found the back of the tip. The tip is inch and a quarter long brass bullet type, it had gone through the plywood overshoot and into the wooden frame behind it. I got this arrow out intact.
Second miss hit a silver birch root, just below the target. This arrow suffered badly, it had split in half along its entire length and snapped through to this split mid shaft.
if theyare 2 of wooden arrows or bamboo arrows from markhill?if yes,they are may be made by arrow bamboo which is thinner wall and now we cancel to use such thinner wall of bamboo specie and use only tonkinOrda Khan wrote:
I would always fit the point to the foot of the shaft.
Judging by the average weight of those shafts, there is little if any difference between shafts of 45-50 and 60-65.
It seems to be luck of the draw how robust each arrow is. With two misses yesterday, from a 42# Hwarang I had two results ...
First miss was an inch over the target into plywood :shock: Digging the arrow out took quite some time, half an inch in and I found the back of the tip. The tip is inch and a quarter long brass bullet type, it had gone through the plywood overshoot and into the wooden frame behind it. I got this arrow out intact.
Second miss hit a silver birch root, just below the target. This arrow suffered badly, it had split in half along its entire length and snapped through to this split mid shaft.
bamboo
Yes it seems the original shafts are a bit unpredictable, some break easily and some are quite tough. Of course when an arrow is deflected in flight by a branch, anything can happen, just as hitting the ground where there may be stones beneath.
I was very impressed with the first arrow that missed. It was nearly two inches deep, through an inch of plywood and into the wooden frame and it survived unharmed. It took me about fifteen minutes to cut it out :roll:
now all bamboo shafts are made by tonkin which is very thicker wall and very very stiff and i feel their quality is superb than japanan and korean which they just polish than by hand and only 1 heating process which is not uniforn spine for each direction( i guess),why so higher price:just total 100% hand sand,why still to use this way?we use 95% sand by machine,just hand sand for adjust them little,i guess their hand work cost too much and price is very expensive and less 1 important process:carbonation which make shaft uniform spine.Orda Khan wrote:
Hello Tiger,
Yes it seems the original shafts are a bit unpredictable, some break easily and some are quite tough. Of course when an arrow is deflected in flight by a branch, anything can happen, just as hitting the ground where there may be stones beneath.
I was very impressed with the first arrow that missed. It was nearly two inches deep, through an inch of plywood and into the wooden frame and it survived unharmed. It took me about fifteen minutes to cut it out :roll:
Its a 3 part series on Japanese bamboo making arrow.
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyejbipavWw
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdB59FWQpN8
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0Nbb7g9jTQ
By the way, you can save the videos to your hardisk using the web based service SAVETUBE: http://www.savetube.com
I like Tigers philosophy where he is making good bamboo shaft available to the majority of people with his prices, unlike overprice Japanese sources (everything in Japan is expensive *cough*) which in all honesty cater to only the 'elite' few. Sure, I can buy Japanese bamboo arrows, but for about US$780 for six ? thats way overboard in my opinion
Anyway, personally I'm interested in Tigers bamboo shafts, however, I will be leaving Australia for the whole of December, and can't place an order because no one will be in Australia around to collect it. I intent to order from Tiger when I get back to Australia in January and try them out. By the way, Tiger is your ebay id stmmrr1968 and your store first bird bamboo craft?
Thank you very much for your kindly offer,but i can't open the links,if you can upload them into:J-Boon wrote:
I found this link on Youtube, it features a Japanese Bamboo arrow maker. I thought of sharing it with the rest of everyone in the forum. I thought bamboo arrow enthusiast like Tiger might enjoy the videos.
Its a 3 part series on Japanese bamboo making arrow.
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyejbipavWw
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdB59FWQpN8
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0Nbb7g9jTQ
By the way, you can save the videos to your hardisk using the web based service SAVETUBE: http://www.savetube.com
I like Tigers philosophy where he is making good bamboo shaft available to the majority of people with his prices, unlike overprice Japanese sources (everything in Japan is expensive *cough*) which in all honesty cater to only the 'elite' few. Sure, I can buy Japanese bamboo arrows, but for about US$780 for six ? thats way overboard in my opinion
Anyway, personally I'm interested in Tigers bamboo shafts, however, I will be leaving Australia for the whole of December, and can't place an order because no one will be in Australia around to collect it. I intent to order from Tiger when I get back to Australia in January and try them out. By the way, Tiger is your ebay id stmmrr1968 and your store first bird bamboo craft?
http://photobucket.com/
which is free rigistrate.japanese bamboo arrow is crazy expensive,just for their total hand sanding bamboo shafts(also without carbonation process by machine),they sell so higher crazy price for their 1000years ago technology,i know bamboo shafts hand sanding is very boring work compare hand sand their little brother,but unreasonble price will let 99.9% buyers far away from bamboo arrows.
my finally aim is let each archery player can have at least 12 pcs in their quiver for shoot trainning or hunting or fun shoot even game shooting.
hope you can start your business asap,my run business is also let more people become rich enough to run their business smoothly and easily worldwide.it's idea is also come from chinese culture again:real happy come from commen people happy.not alonge happy,(独乐，与众乐，孰乐？）
In the past I used the 'apparently proper modern method' for matching arrows. (i.e match spine and so on). At one point I was using Easton Powerflight Carbon arrows with 5' plastic vanes, but I find my shots were never consistent and go all over the place plus the vanes keep popping up (the vane left of the cock vane) and keep cutting my thumb knuckle (re-fletching plastic vanes gets on my nerves).
So, one day, I just told my local archery shop, to make me some wooden 32' inch arrows with feathers (shaft is german cedar, feather is Turkey). I didn't even ask about the weight or ask it to be 'spined'. I tried them after I got them, and all my arrows are grouping and landing well, and most importantly no more cuts on my thumb knuckle. After that, I was, 'So much for scientific approach' when choosing arrows. I shot my old Easton Powerflight carbon arrows alongside these wooden arrows to see if its an arrow problem or not, and my carbon arrow are very erratic in where they land. The only thing I don?t like about wooden arrows is my points get stuck in my target when I pull out the arrows (I blame it on my archery shop, with their ow quality aradite, I now re-glue them using 3 ton epoxy)
So, with my good impression using wooden arrows, I thought of trying other traditional materials like Bamboo. While, I'm a medical scientist by profession, I'm not so hard up about the science of arrow shafts after my above experience. I guess its all about being intuitive and 'feeling' if its right. The intuitive approach I would say is a 'traditional' way of doing things. I also do understand for natural materials its very hard to 'standardized'. If it feels right when I shoot, its good enough for me. Traditional mindset for traditional style archery, I guess.
However, that being said, I think, if one is a seller, I feel, no matter how superior a product is, if the consumer (buyer) doesn't get what he/she wants, they will not buy it no matter how good the product is. To give an example, Apple makes ipad,ipods and i-whatevers, and although there are many other products which are more superior, it?s the ipads and whatever that are making money, and not the other non-apple products. It is not so much how good apple products are (I personally won?t buy apple stuff :-p) but apple knows how to target consumer perceptions and make them ?feel good?. Feel good being the key word here.
I think an important point in targeting a 'western' base market, is they want to see things like uniformity, +/- deviation of grain, weight so on and so forth. These are the things 'most' buyers want to see (might not be all). I think people like to see numbers and figures to gauge a product, instead of a try and buy intuitive approach.
*Edited 28 Nov 2010: Removed direct video links to my photobucket account since Tiger has seen the videos and the links to the videos on YOUTUBE are posted in previous post.
"feel good" shoot is also my aim.
1)material:
first we must make seletion to choice all in natural tonkin bamboo straight,japanese as if not make selection(it is very very important)and their bamboo wall is thinner(easy to broken)
2)we sand bamboo skin out:use machine and a little hand to adjust it,1 minutes we can do 5-10 pcs,japanese sand 1 pcs use 10-30 minutes,and machine sand are more avarage and hand sand is very boring work and easy to make some thick and some thinner.
3)heating way:japanese may be use 1000years ago way,heat them inside the hole and without carbonation process,we first heat them inside sand and must be passed in carbon stove:that is most important:to make spine uniform,ja[anese way can't make it uniform heating and their spine is not uniform,as their temperture is too higher:easy to broken when shoot,we use lower temperature and long time heating to make bamboo fibre very stiff and uniforn spine( to fly directly at target)
3) 1 japanese always make straighten when he do the process,we make 4-5times hand straighten on concentrate time,no necessary always straighten,as bamboo have relect forcemhis way is wasting his enough and time and not good results(somebady tell me they always make starighten again before each shoot,our ahsft no necessary,just shoot and after some month ,may be straighten 1 time if weather is too humid)
4)japanese make 1 hole from end to top to use heated iron stick,we never do this way,this way ill let shafts become weak when many times shoot,may be you can crash the shaft just by shoes,our shafts each nodes is close:very very hard to anti heavy crash and pressing
5)japanese do bamboo shafts only 1 person,we have 8-10 person,each person do 1 process,like first staright,sand the skin,second and third,each process we have each worker,japanese way is very easy to get tired,we don't and each person become this process expert after many times repeat work.
6)japanese paiting is hand painting,we rpint our logo or another pattern use machine,his way need 10 minutes,our machine print just less 1 second
7)our bamboo process use a lot of machine and modern processinstead of hand :to keep stable quality and japanese way need minimum 10-20 years and it is belong to family business and very histroy and 1000 years ago way.no modern way at all,even old way is not scientific.
8)japanese salalry is very higher,of course such slowly 100% hand work will cost much money than chinese modern and faster produce process.
japanese way:1 prson may be produce 5-10-30 pcs/day,chinese way:1 chinese can do 100-200-300pcs/day is poosible
so,i think our shafts is better spine uniforn(fly very directly line at long distance) and very stiff(repeat time shoot no damage) than japanese bamboo shafts,(not uniforn spine and very weak shaft,you must shoot them must with most carefull:not shoot at rock or hard wood for breaking)
of course our price is much better than japanese:1/20th compare with japanese bamboo shafts.i worry their bamboo shafts will finish business if they permit me to sell into japanese market(they protect themself) and korean way is almost 99% copy japanese way.
i think japanese should copy my way if they want to continue survive on making bamboo shafts.
I am not saying that modern machine approach is wrong, what I'am saying that more is not necessary better. That might be the reason why those "one man business craftsman" tend to turn out better products.
Keep up the good work.
in a word:Daniel wrote:
You have made some valid points J-Boom. I like what you have said about "natural materials being hard to standardize" I think that is the key for both Korean and Japanese arrow making approach. Heritage is one thing, but honestly, where there is money involved there is always tendency to go short cuts (like using electric sanders) to speed up the process, still keeping quality very high. And that is fine as long as the product turns ok. If it doesn't, than I don't think such craftsman would stay in business for long time. I don't have much experience with bamboo, but have been making wood arrows for quite some time (and much of this time with no plastics involved at all). All I can say is that nothing bits "50 points inspection" (like my girlfriend used to say:) that is this many time single shafts is being handled and work on before it is finished arrow. During that working time I have pretty big chance to detect any "inperfections" such as microcracks, missed growth rings etc. I can either fix it or discard it.
I am not saying that modern machine approach is wrong, what I'am saying that more is not necessary better. That might be the reason why those "one man business craftsman" tend to turn out better products.
Keep up the good work.
good arrow:
1)ecomnomic price for 99.9% buyers use
2)cute and beautiful looking like art
3)very stiff for repeat use at least 300times at any target without damage
4) fastest speed and stright fly line at center of target:need uniforn spine and very straight shafts
5)proper weight:no heavy ,no light
our tiger bamboo shafts match above 5 points already
is that also the draw lenght ?
Thanks for posting these, Jack. They simply ooze quality.
i think we can do that,just same of end of bamboo shafts position and may be weight is little heavy,if you knwo their price,i guess:35-40$/pc for finsihed bamboo arrows,yes?jack farrell wrote:
Thought some would enjoy seeing these eight arrows made in Korea by Choi Geum-dong. They came through Thomas. Length overall is 35 1/2 inches, 435 to 438 grains each.
great arrow,they looks no diffirence or very little,but price is sky and ground:Jos?Dom wrote:
Jack, great arrows. These are my humble Korean style arrows I made with Tiger's bamboo shafts and pheasant feathers. I like the final result. I used hardwood nocks, sinew and brass points just like the originals.
somebady tell me korean bamboo arrow sell at 60-70$/pc,tiger shafts sell at 1-1.1$/pc at 1000pcs order,and if you do them finished arrows,what is the profit you imaged.
korean bamboo arrow with same longth of nodes and weight,we can do that,but price for shaft:5-6$/pc,if somebady can accpt this price,i can sell him 10000pcs shafts during 2 month.
Wow, this is impressive! To make a usable wood arrows of this length I'd have to select the best, straight grain, heavy spine shafts available, barrel them and still wouldn't expect to arrive with final SHAFT weigh under 450's !jack farrell wrote:
Length overall is 35 1/2 inches, 435 to 438 grains each.
Jose, I like your arrows to!
The only thing missing from Korean arrows is some cresting. You have painted the area under the fletch red, which sets off the entire arrow nicely.
If you see numbers of used Korean arrows, the owners painted colored rings on the shafts to tell them from those of their competitors. I wonder why the makers have not gotten onto this idea?
They also put dots on their arrows to identify each arrow for eccentricities.
LOA? wt?
Jack, I tried my best to copy the Korean style arrows but with my personal touch. Mostly I used the pictures in the Korean book "International traditional bow and arrows of yesterday and today" as samples.
Actually, making these feathers is easy compared to the Turkish arrows with bakkam composite nocks. I used the nock blanks made of hardwood offered in 3Rivers, etc. For safety, I inserted a nail too. I got the idea on this forum!
Then shaping the nock is just saw and sand paper work for perfect look and string placement. A feather burner is very useful. Sinew, glue, paint and varnish are all used in the right way.
You're right, Korean arrows are usually plain. Though there are same samples painted like mine, especially ceremonial arrows. You can see some on that Korean book.
Of course, I got the info about node placement and I thank you for that.
Right now I'm making some So-ya (Japanese war arrows) and I can say these arrows are a little bit easier to make since I use self nocks directly on the bamboo.
About length and weight, this is where I don't follow tradition...
Since I use the Turkish style drawing with short Asian bows including the Korean bows, I use shorter arrows than the traditional 32" Korean arrow. Mine are 30" long and about 500gs. I use bows in the 65/70# so I also prefer heavy arrows even for long distance shooting. That way my bows are less noisy and smoother. I prefer a heavy tuned arrow than a faster arrow that miss.
and japan and korean shafts is more close like mould products:always is same:same weight and same nodes etc,you will sleep if you see them long time,but see my shafts you will feel exciting and full of imagination and as if you will return to live 1000years ago,that is fantastic feeling.
But, please try to understand that your opinion on Japanese and Korean bamboo shafts doesn't relfect the feelings of many tradtitional archers who have handled well made Japnese and Korean arrows.
I don't say here that they are superior, they are simply different and it's quite difficult to judge them in the same category as the shafts you supply.
The species of bamboo you deal with is differet than the Japanese and Korean species and that difference reflects itself in the finished shaft/arrow properties, I have no doubt your shafts will make good arrows, but for a different type of shooting.
The usual approach is to have arrows as closely matched as possible, this is the reason every shaft in a given good set of shafts will look similar, the 'mould' effect is to be sure that every arrow in a set will have the same flight.
An archer instinctively will choose the shafts that look the same rather than those that don't, simply because they usually want to hit what they shoot at.
many special bamboo products design come from my dream:it is may be heaviest job:many times, i get up from bed alone,just come idea suddenly and draw it on paper,you know i am not expert on many fields.and meanwhile i thought and thought and study it in a lot of time( you know many archery person play mor than 30 years and nothing new products ,you can't image i am never shoot 1 arrow when i design bamboo shafts,also never smoke bamboo pipe and never play bamboo whips,but lucky i get many people support and i must use risk and corage to make them into products( i must invest money first and not know if they are suceed or failed),i know 90% human being desing can't make them into products for selling,but iwth my long time live exprence and many years business risk( i lose 10 years for nothing get when i start my business) and now 80% of my design become real products and bring many people to get their new business,i think bamboo shafts may be only 1/10th of such process.in a word,bamboo shafts is just let person havve more choice,meanwhile it bring many person to earn some new money too.that is the real aim.
With these bamboo shafts the arrows are around 450+ grains. Two Korean bows present, 40 and 42 lbs Kaya and Hwarang. The cast was great, it was as flat as, if not flatter than comparable weight modern recurves shooting skinny carbons.
I lost one arrow to a stone in the ground (always a lottery when you hit the dirt) For day to day shooting such as this, these shafts are excellent and exactly what you want when you know they could meet an untimely end. I would never dream of shooting either of those Korean sets out on our courses, there would have to be no danger at all of them coming to harm.
I think that this is not entirely correct. Quality wooden arrows are probably better than bamboo arrows (wood is more homogeneous). The bamboo is also among the nodes sometimes different stiffness. I like archery Asian - Chinese, Korean, Tibetan ... Therefore, I want to shoot arrows from bamboo. In the history of Asia shot to hunt and fight with arrows made of bamboo (history showed that they were successful). I'll never get results like the arrows made of carbon. But I like shooting the arrows from bamboo.Ashbow wrote:
I don't say here that they are superior, they are simply different and it's quite difficult to judge them in the same category as the shafts you supply.
The species of bamboo you deal with is differet than the Japanese and Korean species and that difference reflects itself in the finished shaft/arrow properties, I have no doubt your shafts will make good arrows, but for a different type of shooting.
The usual approach is to have arrows as closely matched as possible, this is the reason every shaft in a given good set of shafts will look similar, the 'mould' effect is to be sure that every arrow in a set will have the same flight.
Before using martial or hunting certainly was not the time to accurately measure weight, distance between nodes, and consistency of all arrows. It is not real life. Arrows from Jack are beautiful. But I think it is a ceremonial arrows, and it is rather an aesthetic issue (a small difference in weight, equidistant nodes ...).
The same weight shafts or arrows and nodes the same distance surely does not guarantee good shooting arrows! I think the similarity with the original arrows are beautiful. Larger fair value is still shooting arrows capability. Arrows are good or bad. Ashbow wrote that from Tiger bamboo arrows are a different type of shooting - which is meant the type of shot? Tradition of bamboo arrows in China is comparatively long, as in Japan and Korea. Yes, bamboo is more species. Still, I think that what is important is the final arrow (set of arrows). Tibetan arrows are worse than the Korean just because another bamboo?
anyway i think my shafts is more near original histroy shape and japan and korean are more near modern arrows,they do bamboo arrow "mould "way to satisfy modern people requests:more presice at target,but our shafts are more close to history shape:very stuff and tolenrecne and repeat use without damage.people can still use it to hunt or trainning without problem.
but many years ,japan and korean bamboo arrows are belong to rich person arrows,their price are so higher to keep normaly people just see and discuss it,important is now i down the price to satisfy 99% person can buy it and play and finally bamboo arrow become normal arrow and it become popular arrow like wood .if people love precise shoot,they should play compund bow with scope or gun shoot with riflescope etc modern way.you can't match tranditional archery to modern archey,tranditional archery belong to relax sport(also for hunting)and modern archery belong to presice shoot tools(for olimpic game or hunting safety)
but people always try to make my shafts into japan and korean standands,in fact we can do it,but we insist on it should be "volkswgan" price arrow,let rich people coninue to play japan and korean "benz" bamboo arrows,but i am sure more and more people love economic price bamboo arrows.
It is not difficult to demonstrate that at least some ancient hunting/war arrows were made in carefully matched sets.
Jack, I do not doubt that some Korean arrows for general use have a small weight difference and the same distance nodes. But it can not be generalized.jack farrell wrote:
It is not difficult to demonstrate that at least some ancient hunting/war arrows were made in carefully matched sets.
Mid-level commander in the army sometimes uses a ceremonial uniform. It can be argued that other commanders sometimes use formal uniform? Definitely yes!
My buddy shoots Kyudo archery and once showed me Kyudo shooting. He had arrows with feathers other than the original arrows. He declared that it is not shooting right Kyudo. Shot on target Makiwara - distance 5 m (25 lb bow ...).
I think therefore that we have more in mind - a spiritual perception of archery. I do not criticize it. It is similar in imitation of Korean, Chinese and other arrows .. I also want the greatest similarity. But I am not an extremist in the requirements. Also, we can say that each producer (master) produced a variety of arrows. Everyone was looking for the best solution. Therefore I do not believe that there is only one pattern and one approach. I think Japanese and Korean traditional archery has changed - from the practical use of bow and arrows (use of combat or hunting) for more spiritual awareness. Therefore, many people prefer a less hands-on approach. Another friend makes me a few years look like the talks to Korean Bamboo Arrow (bong never any real use bamboo arrow). I prefer bamboo arrows 200 will destroy the production and shooting ...
And now you are stating that because your arrow making is careless that ancient arrows were also made in this manner,
"Before using martial or hunting certainly was not the time to accurately measure weight, distance between nodes, and consistency of all arrows. It is not real life."
To me this indicates that you are completely unfamiliar with facts. You see, Jchoz, if you will investigate any of the other threads on atarn, you will find out that we investigate information about archery. Everyone has an opinion but what we count here are facts.
So please demonstrate to us using any Asian culture that you please that their arrows were randomly made. You mention Japanese. Have you studied Japanese war arrows? Use facts as we now know your opinion on the matter. Jack
Jack, I do not want to endlessly argue about who is right. That's not my goal. Instead, try to make 20 to 30 arrows. Maybe not an exact copy of the Korean arrows, but I will be satisfied by shooting ...jack farrell wrote:
To me this indicates that you are completely unfamiliar with facts. You see, Jchoz, if you will investigate any of the other threads on atarn, you will find out that we investigate information about archery. Everyone has an opinion but what we count here are facts.
So please demonstrate to us using any Asian culture that you please that their arrows were randomly made. You mention Japanese. Have you studied Japanese war arrows? Use facts as we now know your opinion on the matter. Jack
There are several collections of Korean real arrows (eg, Grayson Archery Collection, etc.). According to information here, including a set of arrows in Korea:
http://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/grayso ... rrows.shtm
or:
http://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/grayso ... rrows.shtm
I see no outstanding compliance distance of nodes and the same diameter shafts in this set. But I think this collection more realistic.
I'm not saying that the production of arrows was accidental. It's not a factory. Everything was done manually.
Research and facts? Even archaeologists often can not express exactly.
Used arrows are available for sale in Korea.
The set of eight I posted are matched. All these sets are not identical. They are custom made for draw length and bow poundage.
In the past, members have posted Uyghur 1000 year old arrows in a matched set, Mongol Empire 800 year old matching arrows, 200 year old Mughal arrow matching sets and etc and etc. Not all arrows came this way, for what we know. But the idea was well understood and practiced in antiquity.
So let us all do as we want. I shoot my decorated arrows every week but at an archery range. If there was the possibility of loss, I would switch to blunts. No ceremony, a contest. Personally, I have learned not to make a strong statement here which I am not prepared to demonstrate is true.
Shoot well. Peace. Jack
about 2000years ago,china in 3 countries period,many wars were happened in china,1 famous chinese war artist(zhugeliang,all chinese know his name)steal 100,000pcs bamboo arrow from caocao(his enemy commandar)in 1 day,and big hollywood film(red cliff)is the story of that period,we sell the film group 3000pcs of bamboo arrow,pls see the photos.jack farrell wrote:
Arrows found so far of the Yuan/Mongol era are wood arrows.
It is not difficult to demonstrate that at least some ancient hunting/war arrows were made in carefully matched sets.
and megolian invased china may be only 8-30 years,and chinese kick them back to mogoian by bamboo arrows(i guess and i read of some history,but not sure)and meanwhile mogolian conquel most europain and arabian countries (mainly is eastern europain)about 400-500years,i guess europain use wood arrows only,they couldn't get them back to their home.
and also 400-500years ago,japanese invased china,and chinese army use bamboo arrow kick them back to japan and them japanese start to use bamboo arrow and their huge bow to fight again with chinese.
all history shown,bamboo arrows take very important role is ancient wars in china.
why we refuse to do korean bamboo shafts?jack farrell wrote:
Good. Now we are getting somewhere. These are not war arrows. These are old tech target arrows which impaled a solid wood target. The reason there is so much variation is that neither is a set. The first group is parts of three sets. Just look at the markings, nocks and different lengths. Group two is also not a set. These are three arrows of a set and three random arrows. A set of Korean arrows is five.
Used arrows are available for sale in Korea.
The set of eight I posted are matched. All these sets are not identical. They are custom made for draw length and bow poundage.
In the past, members have posted Uyghur 1000 year old arrows in a matched set, Mongol Empire 800 year old matching arrows, 200 year old Mughal arrow matching sets and etc and etc. Not all arrows came this way, for what we know. But the idea was well understood and practiced in antiquity.
So let us all do as we want. I shoot my decorated arrows every week but at an archery range. If there was the possibility of loss, I would switch to blunts. No ceremony, a contest. Personally, I have learned not to make a strong statement here which I am not prepared to demonstrate is true.
Shoot well. Peace. Jack
i tell you the true of process of bamboo arrows,normally we collect 10000pcs of bamboo material(exsample) and only 50-60% can be make into our standards bamboo shafts,if we do same weight or same nodes bamboo arrow,we may be do only 100-200pcs of korean style bamboo shafts from 10000pcs of bamboo materials,we have to threw out 90% above of bamboo material,it is not respect natural,as we waste too much bamboo,so,we refuse to do such korean style bamboo shafts.
if worker go to maintain to select korean style,may be 1 person only pick of 30-40pcs of mould bamboo arrows,that is cost too much,so,i say we can do korean mould style,but the price will be 5$/pc,not 1$/pc.
i can guess when ancient wars were happened,no commandar ask boywer to do same mould bamboo arrows,as war need huge amount of bamboo arrows,it is not possible to let people to seclect same mould bamboo arrows,now people have enough time and money,so,korean or japanese start to make long time selce for mould bamboo arrows,again,their mould bamboo arrow cost so higher( as they have to waste too much material or they spend a lot of time to make selecetion to make very few mould bamboo arrow)
but we don't waste so many bamboo material and not want to spend so long time to make few selection,so,we do our style,but now almost 70-80% is 18cm flatter surfce on nock placement,bowyer is very easy to make them into arrows and economic price.
i have a uk friend who love bamboo shafts so much and he do a lot of work on bamboo shafts analisys,may be uk people love to do reseach work,pls see his report:Daniel wrote:
Making 20-30 arrows to get one set (lets say 12) of good ones (ones that fly right) is impractical. Can't imagine old masters doing it, they simply couldn't afford loosing time like that.
Relation between diameter, spine and weight in Tonkin shafts
There has been quite a lot of discussion around bamboo and cane arrow shafts, their spine ratings, weight, diameter etc.
Having done a little work looking at the shafts I have and being personally been interested in the results I thought I would post them here.
First I must stress that the measurements and data I have are based on Tonkin. It is possible that other bamboo and cane species will show different results.
Can Tonkin bamboo shafts be sorted by weight only to give useful spine sorting?
The simple answer is no. There is a relationship between spine rating and weight, but it is not a consistent one. Generally, when averaged out heavier shafts will tend to be stiffer and weaker shafts lighter. when it comes to specific shafts of the same diameter there will however be stiffer shafts that are lighter than weaker ones etc.
The following shows the average weights of 33 inch 8 - 8.5mm shafts for the various spines. To get an idea of the weight of a 28 inch shaft you need to multiply by 0.8485
20-25# - 300 grains
25-30# - 316 grains
30-35# - 339 grains
35-40# - 356 grains
40-45# - 367 grains
45-50# - 390 grains
50-55# - 424 grains
55-60# - 433 grains
60-65# - 450 grains
65-70# - 462 grains
70-75# - 481 grains
75-80# - 498 grains
80-85# - 512 grains
85-90# - 527 grains
90-95# - 535 grains
95-100# - 543 grains
100-105# - 561 grains
While this averaged out data does show a fairly good and direct relationship between spine and weight I must stress that in individual shafts there can be significant variation.
The next thing that I thought may be of interest is the relation between shaft diameter and spine. By shaft diameter I mean the diameter at the base when cut or the thicker end of the shaft. This only became apparent to me when I had my little table and put it into a bar chart form.
Can Tonkin shafts be sorted by diameter only to give useful spine sorting?
Again, the answer is no. I hope that the following image is clear enough to show why
You will see that for each diameter of shaft there is quite a nice little peak shape but also quite considerable overlap. The 8-8.5mm shafts are a good example. The highest peak is 50-55#, but there are many more shafts that aren't. Really, the only way to get Tonkin bamboo shafts of the spine rating you want is to cut shaft diameters in the right ball ground and then spine rate them one by one.
Well, that's about all the reliable information I have at the moment. I hope it is of interest.
My arrows are made from chinese bamboo ans thi sis the spine, the mass is about 600-700 grains in 88 cm length.
Rods have sorted into sets by weight and stiffness.Daniel wrote:
Making 20-30 arrows to get one set (lets say 12) of good ones (ones that fly right) is impractical. Can't imagine old masters doing it, they simply couldn't afford loosing time like that.
Completely finish 20-30 arrows and trying to make one set of arrows. The remainder will use the arrows to another set (although I make arrow shafts from the same group). We sort but complete arrows. I want to use every stick.
I do not make strong statements. It's the opposite. I expressed doubt. They knew in the 19th century (or earlier in time) the rules of the ISO quality? They knew in the 19th century rules for design (DIN, ISO, etc.)? The answer is NO. Currently, we are all (with bows and arrows) produced according to standards. In the past, each manufacturer of bows and arrows to use your wits and more innovative. Otherwise, not development.jack farrell wrote:
So let us all do as we want. I shoot my decorated arrows every week but at an archery range. If there was the possibility of loss, I would switch to blunts. No ceremony, a contest. Personally, I have learned not to make a strong statement here which I am not prepared to demonstrate is true.
Shoot well. Peace. Jack
Jack, with you I'm always happy to discuss. Different perspectives enrich!
Its your choice.
Now about hostoric arrows makers.Yes every one try and search his way, but in top all understand relatively same principes. Its tipical for all human crafts.(bows too)
Another human manner is search sistem. Somthing like your "ISO " :lol: , or how we call this. Every craftsman vith his years experiences ended vith somthing like his personal "ISO" and his apprentice teach and continue. If his arrows was succesfully use and popular, all another craftsmans copiing his "sistem".All this human customs work evan in neolit ...
of course,why not,but our spinetester is maximum 92# and very less person use 120-130#,so,we cancel this spine group and use more popular spine group,if you want 120-130#,ginni wrote:
Stiventiger, you can make shafts very stiff, about 120-130 spine?
My arrows are made from chinese bamboo ans thi sis the spine, the mass is about 600-700 grains in 88 cm length.
1) we must get spine tester to 150#
2)the diamter we guess to 11-12mm minimum to match your request,but if you need samll order,it is not worth to produce them,it is first time i listen people need 120-130,i listen somebday need 100# shafts
at least many people will know what is japanese and korean bamboo arrows and what is tiger bamboo arrows,what is the diffirecne.
important is each person have right attitue:just state his points and not attack person with with borshit words,that is get my respection.all are great guy!!!
I said that I make replicas of arrows? No. I want to make good arrows. Arrows Asian (Korean, Japanese and Chinese) I like it. I want to keep the look and especially the proximity of good functionality.Dusan wrote:
I dont understand your position Jichoč. You dont make historical replica arrows. You dont make traditional arrows. You make somthing like cure between vith plastic nocks, glued crests... Arrows for your practis . Only one thing is traditional- bamboo. Thats all.
Its your choice.
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But, even the expectation for such perfect arrow it was very high and I had every time a very fast flight, after a while I gave up to use it because it was imprecise. Even with twisted arrows impossible to straighten I achieved more yellows in the target than with this one, and only reason I found for this strange behavior is the placement of nodes.
This have only two nodes, one about two inches from half to the nock, another about two inches from the point.
So, for me, the placement of the nodes is very important.
Another point, after a while, the surviving arrows in my quiver after long period of shooting are naturaly selected from those with korean style placemend of nodes. And those so bad that I dont shoot them :D
jchocz wrote:
I said that I make replicas of arrows? No. I want to make good arrows. Arrows Asian (Korean, Japanese and Chinese) I like it. I want to keep the look and especially the proximity of good functionality.Dusan wrote:
I dont understand your position Jichoč. You dont make historical replica arrows. You dont make traditional arrows. You make somthing like cure between vith plastic nocks, glued crests... Arrows for your practis . Only one thing is traditional- bamboo. Thats all.
Its your choice.
very beautiful ,like real art,just look is enjoying
I am little confusedginni wrote:
I remember one very good arrow I had, which was very stiff, very round in section and very straight. Even after few months of using it was straight like a carbon. I didn't straightened it after I made it ready, and until the day I broke it it was still straight.
But, even the expectation for such perfect arrow it was very high and I had every time a very fast flight, after a while I gave up to use it because it was imprecise. Even with twisted arrows impossible to straighten I achieved more yellows in the target than with this one, and only reason I found for this strange behavior is the placement of nodes.
This have only two nodes, one about two inches from half to the nock, another about two inches from the point.
So, for me, the placement of the nodes is very important.
Another point, after a while, the surviving arrows in my quiver after long period of shooting are naturaly selected from those with korean style placemend of nodes. And those so bad that I dont shoot them :D
Hello Mr Tiger!
Long time no seen!
hope everything is good whit you!
here everything is great:)
i promised to send you some photos when we used the arrows we brought from you!
they helped me to take the first place in the swedish championship of horseback archery, and now i got an inventaion to Jordania from the royal court:)
i where woundering if you got 5/16 arrow heads to? i saw that you got 11/32 in stock on Ebay. but i can't fit them on the bambushafts or pine shaft that i use...
Best Regards Emil
as i said,bamboo arrow are most used on horse archery during 20-30meter
It also makes the four heavy sticks 30 to 40 grams like Ginni likes. It also makes the 8 sticks with random spaced nodes like the arrows you are selling. I don't really enjoy these but I keep them for beginners to use until they are experienced enough to move up. There are also many sticks less than 20 grams which are perfect for children's arrows. There remain about 15 garden quality sticks so there is no waste at all. Isn't this excellent for the environment?
But I am always looking for the sellers of the garden sticks to only buy the kind I want and not all the extra sizes. This would also cost less to ship and save more resources.
If you want to answer, please do not copy my entire message. This wastes Stephen's computer storage space. Just start with "Jack" and I will understand your meaning. Jack
1)we never use such bent material to do arrow shafts,as they need a lot of time to straight them,you can try make some and tell how long time you use,may be it is for DIY way,not for big production.
2)from photos,i just see first nodes is flatter and rest is not same diatance of nodes as your first photo and our shaft already 70-80 % is flatter
3)you sort them also for children arrow,and we sort them into 84 and 100cm,not for children use?how can i sell to children market?
4)anyway you insist on korean style,but is ok for DIY ,but not for production
5) if you can tell me how much cost for your way to make them into finally shafts?i guess cost minimum 1.5-2$/pc without carbonization and sand out bamboo skin and varnish and sort them into spine group and apckage,if complete all process,will be 3.5$/pc,i tell you i can do such way,but i will sell 5$/pc including shipping
6)korean and japanese is their way,why must i follow them?why i cann't insist on our way?and our shafts is already sold more than many times amount than their selling market for many years,and i sell only 4 years ,and already sold out 200,000pcs worldwide,i don't trust japan or korean can sell my amount,may be they sell only 1/10th.
7)why people use only benz,not volkwagen or honda?market need vaired products,not alway same product.graden need many flower,not only 1 type of flowyers,anyway you are stiff guy,but need widely heart and widely point of view of the market
8)you see what is our bamboo material,very straight and clean but some of them were ready for threw out
My point is that the location of the first node, counting from notch of the arrow to the tip, is very important for me. I found that after shooting random made bamboo arrows and by comparison.
My arrows breaks when I miss the target and hit some hard like concrete wall or target legs. Also I lose arrows in grass when I miss the target.
So, is a natural selection of arrows after some time, I lose the arrows which I miss more often the target and I dont lose the best arrows which I dont miss the target.
And after some time I found in my quiver almost only arrows with the first node from 17 to 24 cm from the nock.
For me this a an argue strong enough for choosing my shafts by following the placement of nodes..
BTW, from my point of view, korean and japaneze bamboo were not like Mercedes but like Rolls Royce. My arrows looks like an old Defender :P
Please let me ask you a question. First the Tonkin stick is cut off at the ground. Where do you decide where the next cut will be placed?
Do you work with the entire stick or is it sent to you already cut to length?
i still in confused for your mention,if you send me emial:[email protected],ginni wrote:
Stivetiger,
My point is that the location of the first node, counting from notch of the arrow to the tip, is very important for me. I found that after shooting random made bamboo arrows and by comparison.
My arrows breaks when I miss the target and hit some hard like concrete wall or target legs. Also I lose arrows in grass when I miss the target.
So, is a natural selection of arrows after some time, I lose the arrows which I miss more often the target and I dont lose the best arrows which I dont miss the target.
And after some time I found in my quiver almost only arrows with the first node from 17 to 24 cm from the nock.
For me this a an argue strong enough for choosing my shafts by following the placement of nodes..
BTW, from my point of view, korean and japaneze bamboo were not like Mercedes but like Rolls Royce. My arrows looks like an old Defender :P
and send me photo and mark your notes ,my english is not so well,i need picture to understand well
thanks
in fact,we sort material,if good to make bamboo shafts,if not good,we make ceremony bamboo arrow shafts to japanese,we sell japanese 1 million pcs each year for their tranditional ceremony bamboo arrows,many japanese love bamboo arrow very much in their religion,many japanese buy at least 1 bamboo arrow and put it in their home to pray that bamboo arrow will kill evil to protect their family.they say:bamboo arrow kill evil (破魔矢）jack farrell wrote:
Stiven; I never had such beautiful sticks to work with.
Please let me ask you a question. First the Tonkin stick is cut off at the ground. Where do you decide where the next cut will be placed?
Do you work with the entire stick or is it sent to you already cut to length?
and they burnt it each year and buy second 1 for next year,(they think old bamboo arrow already kill evil and bamboo body already dirty,so, they need new bamboo arrows to kill evil again)it is their trandition.so,if you travel to japan and find out their religion church,you will see many bamboo arrows(not very straight)in their church.
and there are a lot of tonkin bamboo arround out factory,but we don't use them,as they are not straight enough to match our standards,we choice best bamboo material from 200-300km,and we just show local person our need bamboo material sample and local person will go to montain to cut the bamboo material depend our requests.and them they send to us.cut bamboo material they will go to 800-1200meter higher montain which sunshine is enough and very remote place always living best bamboo;very staright and very stiff.
sorry,something concern some secret,i can't replyjack farrell wrote:
But Stiven; do the cutters bring back the entire stick or do they bring back a certain length ? How do you cut the ends clean and even?
It seems possible that these sticks are actually the byproduct of another manufacturing process and therefore it is not controllable how the nodes are laid out. Surely the cutters are not controlling the quality of the arrows.
I feel fairly sure that SOME Koreans would buy sticks if they were laid out in their pattern. Since MOST Koreans already use carbon arrows, some modern fletchers surely would substitute your sticks IF they found them acceptable. Tonkin is superior to carbon, and prettier.
tonkin are widely used in many fields,even bamboo fly rods,we use tonkin is not only for making bamboo arrow shafts,bamboo arrow shafts is only chain of products,it is my invention to make them into bamboo arrow shafts,but we also control the quality if material selection:we choice best quality bamboo material into bamboo arrows shafts,most important is we must think about the cost if we choice korean style, and with our style,we can produce a lot amount and faster speed ,with korean style we produce few amount and expensive and very slowly speed,our aim is make them into economic price bamboo arrow shaft,why we follow them still produce expensive style,each production must consider market position of your products.jack farrell wrote:
Well Stiven; Herein lays the entire issue. I see that there is much use of Tonkin for fencing, matting and other uses.
It seems possible that these sticks are actually the byproduct of another manufacturing process and therefore it is not controllable how the nodes are laid out. Surely the cutters are not controlling the quality of the arrows.
I feel fairly sure that SOME Koreans would buy sticks if they were laid out in their pattern. Since MOST Koreans already use carbon arrows, some modern fletchers surely would substitute your sticks IF they found them acceptable. Tonkin is superior to carbon, and prettier.
in bamboo arrow shafts field,already japan and korean produce delux style,why we follow them to make new deluxy?and nobady ganrantee our deluxy can sell well,but i am sure economic is always widely use,if yo u like delux and you have enough money,you can buy japanese and korean,very simple and easy,but infact,many my bigger seller already opne japanese kuydo club door and lay out our shafts,it is natural,many menber already choice our shafts instead of their expensive type,nobady throw out money randomly when they see our quality is very nice compare with their type,at least our shafts show very stiff and tolenrence and more beauty art looking,and its price is only 1/10th -1/20th of them with even better shoot results.nobady is fool in this world,i am sure that japanese and korean will lose their market in future each year,i am sorry for this happen,they should copy my industry produce way:make good quality with economic price.
but unforturnatly,it is very dificult to copy our way.
Jack, if you had 100 Tiger shafts I'm sure you would find that fletch node spacing on most of them, especially if you are shortening them. ( I bought four from a medieval fayre that just about matched for nodes and made arrows that weigh 489, 490, 494 and one slightly lighter at 449 grains. That's pretty good for four random shafts.) Of the others I am also confident that some will react similarly in flight. I've found this myself, one odd arrow that shouldn't, but does.
I'm certainly glad of the opportunity to buy economically priced bamboo, it allows me to replace any damaged or 'back to the wild' arrows without a big dent in the wallet. I also enjoy the whole process and for this I can cut my own bamboo but I then have a year to wait before making them into arrows.
(I wish my bamboo grew as straight as those in the pics)
At the top are some that I cut yesterday and below them are some that were cut back in spring. The straightened shafts were harvested in autumn 2009. Node uniformity is pretty consistent and I'm looking forward to trying them out.
You can see one complete arrow and if you look at the nodes here, you will see four. There are in fact five as there is a node at the nock. I was disappointed at having to fit a plastic nock on this one but there was not enough diameter for a self nock like the others. The point is 63gr and the shaft is just 9/32" at this end. Total arrow weight is 394gr, I tried it on wednesday and it flies like a missile. Maybe I will manage to find a few more like this for a set.
Most of the shafts are coming in between 303 and 375gr bare weight.
as if most people love bamboo,here also most chinese love bamboo very much,bamboo soul is very straght and stiff and tolerence,we say we have similar soul:chinese is very straight and stiff and tolenrence people.we say :we prefer to eat without meat,but we must live together with bamboo (宁可食无肉，不可居无竹） and 2008 olimpic ceremony in beijing:1 huge bamboo books open to show chinese history:in ancient china,chinese use bamboo as a book,people write words or letter on bamboo blanks,konfujiu wrote his famouse book on bamboo blanks 2000year ago.Orda Khan wrote:
I forgot to mention the bottom two shafts. Only two nodes but still nicely placed, all my wifes arrows have this pattern and they are great arrows. I won't overlook these two, it will be interesting to find out if there is any difference.
If your arrows are so thin at the nock end and you still don't want to use plastic nocks, then the wooden plug, Korean style, and a bit of sinew over that should still do the trick.
Hello Storm,
I cut the entire culm back to the ground and remove the top at a point that is too thin. The length is usually around six feet or more. These matched easily as you can see, the cut end on the left is ground level. Pseudosasa Japonica can reach fifteen feet or more but culms of this size are rarely any good. If you hunt around there are some that are a nice diameter and the nodes often match up nicely.
As to the small diameter of the nock end, I belive it still would be possible to make a sort of a build up nock, if the plug/bamboo joint is reinfroced with sinew, the plug can be pretty thin in this spot. You can make up for shape with sinew wery well.
This method works very well for me.
Just thinking loud, maybe it will be of some help, forget if you already have decided to discard this solution. By the way I have nothing against plastic nocks.
i already plan to sell horn insert nock bamboo arrow shafts during 1 month,so,buyers is quite simple to put fletch and points on and also to sell finished bamboo arrows which many people haven't time to make nock and points and fltech on,they just want to shoot bamboo arrows only,no interesting to DIY.big problems is vaired buyers love vaired nock and fletch shape and points,it will take many problems if i sell to them finished arrows,somebady like this,somebady like that,so,i first sell shafts only to let them to do what they loved points or fltech or points,and then i will see some results what is their prefered bamboo arrows shape.jack farrell wrote:
Stiven; Agreed. Someone should sell these insert nocks already made; horn, wood, bone.
pls see photo and if buddies can tel me if my insert nock is propro right size?
photo 087 is my original design of bamboo glue type nock,but it is too weak,i use finger to press it split with medium force,so,i leave it and use horn insert nock only:very hard that you cann't press it spilt by finger even you have strong force finger and almost never split the nock even you shoot 1000times.and looks quite cute also.
Yes, I used sinew wrap and horn insert nocks on my first bamboo arrows some time ago. Fashioning individual nocks from horn was just so time consuming that I gave up on it quite early :) I found self nocks to be adequately up to the job but with the drawback that a rear end strike ruins the whole arrow.
As I mentioned, this arrow was barely 1/4" at the nock end and it was a solid node for over 1/2" ...really solid, like glass, you could not mark it. I have a dremel but I didn't have the nerve, so I filed the end to fit the nock. I didn't want to use sinew wraps on these as I am whipping them with silk. Plastic nocks are at least fairly easy to replace and any strike usually breaks just the nock. Like you I have nothing against them because they are convenient for everyday arrows. However, take a look at the nocks Poletti are offering, wood or horn. They are pre drilled so fit is like plastic nocks and the body is a slotted blank that just requires fine adjustment to fit the string. One of these to replace the plastic nock would improve the look of that arrow.
Jack,
You can find horn and bone insert nocks on offer from Rudderbows. I found them a bit expensive but they look nice.
http://www.rudderbowsarchery.com//store ... cts_id=386
Stiven,
I agree, natural does look better and that horn strip insert is a good remedy and used quite a bit with Longbow arrows. I do think a peg type insert nock of wood or horn would look nicer still. Unfortunately neither was much of an option for this particular arrow but it was such a beautiful shaft I had to find a solution.
Now, I have access to loads of horn scraps and offcuts in the workshop, scraps of exotic harwdoos too, shame to throw them away, so we just pile them up in boxes, occasionally one can find some use to them.
The thing with the insert type of nock is like you described, the fit can be quite 'individual' on every arrow. Orda, I have no doubt you are a skilled craftsman.
My nocks. There is no problem.Ashbow wrote:
I have a couple of Poletti's bamboo arrows with the horn nocks as you described at hand, looks very nice, but the arrows and nocks are quite huge though.
Now, I have access to loads of horn scraps and offcuts in the workshop, scraps of exotic harwdoos too, shame to throw them away, so we just pile them up in boxes, occasionally one can find some use to them.
The thing with the insert type of nock is like you described, the fit can be quite 'individual' on every arrow. Orda, I have no doubt you are a skilled craftsman.
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or
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with special design machine,horn insert nocks become very easy work,norammly if use hand craft,1 person can do horn insert nocks only 10-20pcs,but with machine way 1 person can do :100pcs horn insert way,just it is the secret.in a word,we use maxium modern technology skill to produce tranditional art instead of just copy without thinking hard or deeply on how to improve qquality and down the total cost.Orda Khan wrote:
Ashbow,
Yes, I used sinew wrap and horn insert nocks on my first bamboo arrows some time ago. Fashioning individual nocks from horn was just so time consuming that I gave up on it quite early :) I found self nocks to be adequately up to the job but with the drawback that a rear end strike ruins the whole arrow.
As I mentioned, this arrow was barely 1/4" at the nock end and it was a solid node for over 1/2" ...really solid, like glass, you could not mark it. I have a dremel but I didn't have the nerve, so I filed the end to fit the nock. I didn't want to use sinew wraps on these as I am whipping them with silk. Plastic nocks are at least fairly easy to replace and any strike usually breaks just the nock. Like you I have nothing against them because they are convenient for everyday arrows. However, take a look at the nocks Poletti are offering, wood or horn. They are pre drilled so fit is like plastic nocks and the body is a slotted blank that just requires fine adjustment to fit the string. One of these to replace the plastic nock would improve the look of that arrow.
Jack,
You can find horn and bone insert nocks on offer from Rudderbows. I found them a bit expensive but they look nice.
http://www.rudderbowsarchery.com//store ... cts_id=386
Stiven,
I agree, natural does look better and that horn strip insert is a good remedy and used quite a bit with Longbow arrows. I do think a peg type insert nock of wood or horn would look nicer still. Unfortunately neither was much of an option for this particular arrow but it was such a beautiful shaft I had to find a solution.
today i just think to use modern material like hard resin or aluminimum metal strips to do insert nocks,as they are more economic and easy work on insert nock making.from out side,people can't distinguish it is horn or resin,only when you burn it you can see what is the diffirence,aluminium instert nock is also my newest design in nock histroy,metal is heardest material and economic price and easy work with,but i worry metal insert nock will let bamboo arrows look not harmany,but may be more cute or exllent,at least it is most hardest inser nock,i will do some sample when i have free time,but also buddy in forum try to do aluminium insert nocks samples,i think alu inser nock is never spilted by hand force,even 10000time shoot if possible to shoot so longAshbow wrote:
I have a couple of Poletti's bamboo arrows with the horn nocks as you described at hand, looks very nice, but the arrows and nocks are quite huge though.
Now, I have access to loads of horn scraps and offcuts in the workshop, scraps of exotic harwdoos too, shame to throw them away, so we just pile them up in boxes, occasionally one can find some use to them.
The thing with the insert type of nock is like you described, the fit can be quite 'individual' on every arrow. Orda, I have no doubt you are a skilled craftsman.
below photo show my orignal design of steel insert nock,but it is heavy,so,i wwant to use aluminimum strips like horn insert way to do same samples to see what is the results
Do you think you could make peg type insert nock out of buff horn in large quantity?
How much you need?and i need real sample,photo not show clearly,i think 300pcs above is for startingDaniel wrote:
Stiven,
Do you think you could make peg type insert nock out of buff horn in large quantity?
There are the white horn and plastic. We can not know which are plastic.Daniel wrote:
Jchocz, the nocks on the bottom picture arrows - are they bone? white horn? wood painted white?
Other variants of nocks and tips that I use.
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I think these arrows look fantastic! And as much as I admire your decoration skills I think that the plane version (as we can see on those last two pictures)
is very neat and elegant! Could you give as a close up of those nocks? Also do you think that the wrap at the nock end is necessary? Assuming that both fit and alignment of the nock are perfect?
jchocz wrote:
There are the white horn and plastic. We can not know which are plastic.Daniel wrote:
Jchocz, the nocks on the bottom picture arrows - are they bone? white horn? wood painted white?
Other variants of nocks and tips that I use.
I always appreciate western people work very detail and careful,and chinese culture is full of our bamboo arrows:we don't care more of surface and more care inside value,)make it long use and very hard,this point similar germany trandition))but japanese accept very much western culture than chinese,they always make surface very beauty,but don't care more about inside.and now western people make very beauty of surface of bamboo arrows,so,bamboo arrow made by western people is mixed culture:eastern and western(eastern don't care more of surface,but western care more about surface,that is very fanny and very good thing for both,that is why i like to sell shafts only and let western people to do rest work of the arrows.that will make bamboo arrow perfectly.
Thank you for the compliment. Nocks and wrapped around the tip is NECESSARY (arrows resistance is increased, otherwise damage to the arrows)! The photo is just a blank arrows. You'll complete in the coming days.Daniel wrote:
... Could you give as a close up of those nocks? Also do you think that the wrap at the nock end is necessary? Assuming that both fit and alignment of the nock are perfect?
I'll try to get a better picture nocks ...
good artist and good arrow makers.enjoying to seeing the arrowsjchocz wrote:
Thank you for the compliment. Nocks and wrapped around the tip is NECESSARY (arrows resistance is increased, otherwise damage to the arrows)! The photo is just a blank arrows. You'll complete in the coming days.Daniel wrote:
... Could you give as a close up of those nocks? Also do you think that the wrap at the nock end is necessary? Assuming that both fit and alignment of the nock are perfect?
I'll try to get a better picture nocks ...
(click for larger image, I am aware that I need a new camera)
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Daniel
Very nice work. Have a good shot in the new year 2011!Daniel T. wrote:
In the meantime I have also finished the first set of arrows using my Tiger shafts. They are 32" long and spined between 60-65#. I weighed the arrows before fletching, weights were within 502,5 and 505 grains including a 100 grain point. I look forward to shooting them!
Daniel
photo show as if modern style,i hope somebady can do tranditional europain pattern bamboo arrows,if yes,that is amazing:western and estern culture mixed:that is new trend in future,Daniel T. wrote:
In the meantime I have also finished the first set of arrows using my Tiger shafts. They are 32" long and spined between 60-65#. I weighed the arrows before fletching, weights were within 502,5 and 505 grains including a 100 grain point. I look forward to shooting them!
Daniel
in fact,tiger bamboo shafts is already mixed with a lot of culture:uk size+usa spine standards+italian art design( i lived in italia for many years) and germany hard quality(for repeat use many times without damage) and korean nodes placement design+chinese process(mainly is on tolenrecne and stiff)
How many of Tiger's shafts did you have to choose these 10 shafts from? Are those self nocks?
I have posted a picture of the 27 grams shafts earlier, but for this picture I had not considered the orientation of the smaller end. You were right regarding the center of gravity. I should still get a third set from them, I already picked the shafts for the second one. I hope the other weight groups turn out equally fine, I have not looked at them yet. http://198.170.107.188/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=17913
I made some 4mm pine dowels to strengthen the nocks.
Daniel
The Karimata head was made for me some years ago by the world known arrowhead maker Hector Cole.
Tiger, I hope you enjoy them :wink:
Your Mughal arrows are amazing! True to the originals.
wommmmmmm,JoseJos?Dom wrote:
Daniel,
Your Mughal arrows are amazing! True to the originals.
real art items you done!!!
i will copy these wonderful photos and show to my partners,the bis goose colour looks very great,fantastical bamboo arrows,as if here become bamboo arrow international musuem now.
http://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/grayso ... rrows.shtm
http://itp.tugraz.at/~skerm/arrows/arrows03.jpg
http://itp.tugraz.at/~skerm/arrows/arrows04.jpg
I find the nocks are not as nicely bulbous as in the originals, but it is ok for the first try. I have never been good at painting, so I paint arrows to practice. I use acrylic paint for the painting because for me painting is enough on its own, I don't want to worry about the paint as well. I can only admire the stunning decoration that skilled people like Adam can do.
I totally agree with the others, that are amazing arrows you made, makes me immediately want to have a set of such arrows! Where did you get the arrow heads?
Daniel
eres una maquina, que pedazo de trabajo mas bien acabado...todas las puntas son de Hector?
Just one query, length of feathers?
Gracias por las fotos!
Jack, I feel making a replica as close to the originals is a challenge. When done right, it?s an honor to own and use something like warriors of the past. It also makes you appreciate what our ancestors did with less resources and technical advancement but with better skill than us.
Tiger, feel free to use the pictures. My pleasure.
Daniel, yes, these are the arrows I was talking about. They are excellent like the real thing. You even made the open nocks for thick strings...do you have a bow with a string big enough for these nocks?
You have talent for painting. I don?t have the skill or patience for that kind of thing. I decorate my Turkish arrows but the result isn?t as good as yours.
Outlaw, de nada! No soy una m?quina...tardo mucho tiempo en finalizarlas y no tengo mucho tiempo libre.
The arrowheads I got them from Jaap, the famous bowyer.
The length of the fleching is about 6 inches.
Thanks again.
This thread is becoming a very good reference point .
Jos?Dom,
What length are your Japanese arrows?
Is there a website with pictures of such arrowheads?
Daniel
that is why I asked Jose if all the heads were from Hector Cole.
He has (Hector Cole http://www.evado.co.uk/Hector%20Cole/Ar ... index.html ) in his website tanged war japanese arrow heads similar to those he got from Jaap Kopedrayer (yumi bows).
By the way, at 10 brit pounds a piece, but such a craftsman is worth that, for sure.
Jose, yours are tanged I guess...did you do anything special, such a tenon or anything to fit the tang with no gap???
Thanks Jose
I use a drill and then a small rounded file until it fits perfectly, it?s just trial and error. After that glue and serving for reinforcement. Epoxy glue on top to seal it.
I personally like Tiger?s sales philosophy, where he is opening up economically priced arrow grade bamboo shafts to the market, so that more people have the option of trying them. That being said, I decided not to order shafts, but instead get Tiger to make me completed and finished customized arrows.
I ordered 50 arrows made to my specification, (Length, Weight, Fletching shape) Tiger was very accommodating and was honest in what can or cannot be done.
Myself, I am concerned primary with 3 points in my arrows. 1. Weight (Not less than 38g, but not more than 45g), 2. Total length (Point to nock), 3.Fletching shape. I personally am not concerned with spine, and I prioritize weight over spine. The price of each customized arrow (included EMS shipping) is the same price as wooden arrows made here in Australia using cedar.
Tiger, gave me a time frame of 2 weeks to get my custom arrows made and ready to ship. The order was done less than 14days, but I told Tiger to hold on posting it, until I am just about to return to Australia from abroad.
Tiger posted the parcel on 30 Dec 2010 from Tianjin China, and it arrived in Australia Melbourne on 2nd Jan 2011. It cleared custom on 3rd January, without any problem, Australian customs did not open parcel to check. The parcel was sent via EMS shipping which is traceable at waypoints during the delivery process.
Below are photos the arrow I received from Tiger today 4th Jan 2010.
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Tiger made to order customized bamboo arrow review
The 50 arrows were all very well packed (see photo) and the parcel itself was compact. All fletchings and arrows arrived undamaged and in good condition. The bamboo shaft of these arrows itself are very beautiful, they are very smooth (felt like touching Japanese urushi tableware), very straight with a mirror-like glaze finish. The arrows are self nock.
Tiger bamboo arrows feel ?full? (lack of a better word) than the German cedar arrows that I own, which best as I can describe in comparison to the bamboo arrows, ?hollow?. Maybe I should say, Tiger arrows feel much more denser than the german cedar arrows.
While I did not specify to Tiger about node points on the bamboo arrow, all the 50 bamboo arrows have 3 nodes. The german cedar arrows I have are 38g and I find that this weight range work best for me. I don?t like using light arrows (my Easton Powerflight carbon arrows are 24g). Most of the arrows were 38g as requested, the rest not more than 43g.
Since, I do archery privately in my backyard (20meter, target in the close door garage *cough*), I can?t exactly afford a high trajectory. I have not used a bamboo arrow before, so, I?m more than curious to see how it felt according to my perspective. It definitely feels amazing. I don?t feel the wobble like my other arrows. I shot my german cedar arrows and Tigers bamboo arrow side by side so that I could compare the differences. I shot 10 shots 5 rounds for each arrow type. In all 5 rounds, all 10 of tiger bamboo arrow grouped very tightly. I don?t get that tight grouping with my cedar arrows.
I find that the bamboo arrow trajectory appears to be flatter /straighter. My accuracy has definitely increased. One unusual thing I realized is the bamboo arrows (although some are slightly heavier) seem to fly faster than my german cedar arrows. Why do I say this when I don?t have a chronograph? That?s because when I fire my cedar arrows, I can sort of, see the ?flight of the arrow? to the target. I can?t really see the flight path with Tiger bamboo shaft (same with my Easton Carbon Powerflight, which I can?t really catch the flight path), so I?m guessing the bamboo arrows are faster than the cedars.
I?m extremely pleased how the entire deal and end product turned out. My only gripe is Tiger made the binding lime green which, I thought didn?t match, but its ok, I will paint it over with some other color like black or white. Extremely please today.Maybe Tiger, will give me a discount the next time round for this review. *wink*
May I ask, how much was it for the 50?
pm to you already
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This is preparation for the Arrows (no feathers), 32 "and 33.5".
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All arrows are made of bamboo, of course. Another decorating option.
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This wrapping is needed - increasing the resilience of arrows and nocks. No wrapping is a breach of an arrow. On balance it has minimal impact.Outlaw wrote:
If I may ask... did you leave that space between the tail of the feather and the knock socket, because of balance issues?
If it were me, I would make up some with pheasant fletches. They have a special weight and length system which is easy to conform to. Huge market. Just an idea from a friend. Jack
my personal idea:i feel if you paint them all in blue or red,people can't see directly the bamboo material colour,in fact,bamboo natural colour is very beautiful coffee color,people can see the bamboo fibre,it is art enjoying,if people see only glue or red colour,the people don't know the material,may be they think it is carbon or wood,
above is my personal idea.i don't know if people agree my points,if you want decorate,just decorate them a part,not whole shafts,most part to show people they are bamboo arrow,not wood or carbon or aluminum,agree?
but nock wrapped is very nice art looking.
Hijack farrell wrote:
Stiven; A very respectable product for J-Boon. I am sure that you can make something that the Koreans will buy. These are already better than the carbons they mostly sell with their plastic fletches. Come to WTAF and appeal directly to the customers. The sellers will be dragged in to your market.
If it were me, I would make up some with pheasant fletches. They have a special weight and length system which is easy to conform to. Huge market. Just an idea from a friend. Jack
Jack:
i will Come to WTAF this year with some korean style bamboo arrows and see what happened,pls inform me when date of WTAF,thank you,in fact we already sell all bamboo finished arrows in china along,like bill gate way.
we sell almost 6000-7000pcs last year in china
may be his decorated bamboo arrow are just for seeing at home and not for shoot,yes?Jos?Dom wrote:
jchocz, what kind of paint do you use?. Whatever I use next to the point, comes off after some use, hitting and removing from the target. That's why I only paint on the upper part of the arrow.
The dye I use epoxy paint mixed with paint. Varnish is very resistant to failure. These are the normal arrows for shooting (the shooting arrows in all competitions). Decorated arrows used by people for whom I made arrows on the contract. It's not just the arrows to browse and exposure on the wall. It was the dying wish of the customers. But I prefer a less decorated darts (I look like bamboo in its natural state). But I'm sure I'll use clear epoxy coating (increases resistance arrows).Jos?Dom wrote:
jchocz, what kind of paint do you use?. Whatever I use next to the point, comes off after some use, hitting and removing from the target. That's why I only paint on the upper part of the arrow.
The arrows you supplied for J-Boon are very fine arrows, nobody could be disappointed with those.
I eventually did some arrows out of all the 36, or so shafts I mentioned on the first page of this thread, I settled for only six arrows, three nodes matched according to Jack's advice. I had to quit matching to an exact weight anyway, the shafts came form an E-bay seller kashi?, I have never handled Tiger's shafts before, but now after all that discussion, pictures etc. I suspect Tiger makes better quality shafts than the ones I got to handle. Kashi's shafts were often far from straight.
Here are the arrows, the're made in the same manner as the ones with the buzzard fletchings I posted some time ago, wooden insert nock, sinew wrap, the nocks are made according to customer's request of making them to dimensions of plastic nocks. Plain arrows with goose flechings this time, no paint and decoration.
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i have questions :Orda Khan wrote:
Stiven, I share your views about the beauty of bamboo in its natural state. The surface can be brought to almost mirror smoothness with simple fine sandpaper and the fibres seem to glow through.
The arrows you supplied for J-Boon are very fine arrows, nobody could be disappointed with those.
before i use varnish unshine on the bamboo surface,i worry too shine flash will lead shooter's eye uncomfortable when they concentrate focus on target,but i feel more people like sunshine(mirror)varnish,if i am wrong?sunshine varnish looks pretty,but unshunshine varnish work better,yes?
ashbow:
i said before kashi and other's copy my shafts with poor quality:not straight,no sand smooth,no spine accurate,very bant and poor quality heavy bamboo specie and poor machine(almost no machine) process of production,he is DIY person who haven't exprenced on bamboo shafts making,our workers have 10 years more and he is single person with less exprence ,we are group of people with 10 years more and more advanced machines on each process.and very strictly quality control from material to last step.so,i say copy our shafts need 5 years minimum and many exprenced people and enough machine also varnish process is our unique invention and of course carbonization machine is also special and unique made by ourself only,how can he copy our quality standards shafts?bamboo shafts looks very simple(just stick),but if you make them into perfect bamboo arrow shafts,it is need a lot of thing:from selction of material and almost 30 steps and also lot of years exprenced in this field
I tried bamboo shafts from 4 suppliers. I must say - Tiger shafts are probably the best of them. Several shafts were cracked (it caused a thermal tempering). Thermal annealing is the only part of the production process, which should improve the (uniform to all shafts). Good would be even more uniform distribution of nodes. But otherwise I'm happy (more than 400 arrows - different variants).stiventiger wrote:
..i said before kashi and other's copy my shafts with poor quality:not straight,no sand smooth,no spine accurate,very bant and poor quality heavy bamboo specie and poor machine(almost no machine) process of production,he is DIY person who haven't exprenced on bamboo shafts making,our workers have 10 years more and he is single person with less exprence ,we are group of people with 10 years more and more advanced machines on each process.and very strictly quality control from material to last step.so,i say copy our shafts need 5 years minimum and many exprenced people and enough machine also varnish process is our unique invention and of course carbonization machine is also special and unique made by ourself only,how can he copy our quality standards shafts?bamboo shafts looks very simple(just stick),but if you make them into perfect bamboo arrow shafts,it is need a lot of thing:from selction of material and almost 30 steps and also lot of years exprenced in this field
Stiven,
I don't use varnish or lacquer on my bamboo arrows. I use a fine sandpaper, 180-240 grade and lightly finish the entire shaft. This alone gives them a glass like finish and I finally apply some car wax polish. You don't really notice the shine when you shoot as you are more focused on the target.
Painting with epoxy paint for safety use (sometimes separated by thin bamboo chips and threatening injury). Without the coating and it happened more than once. I used a matte finish but I did not get such a coating.Orda Khan wrote:
...I don't use varnish or lacquer on my bamboo arrows. I use a fine sandpaper, 180-240 grade and lightly finish the entire shaft. This alone gives them a glass like finish and I finally apply some car wax polish. You don't really notice the shine when you shoot as you are more focused on the target.
most important is we makejchocz wrote:
I tried bamboo shafts from 4 suppliers. I must say - Tiger shafts are probably the best of them. Several shafts were cracked (it caused a thermal tempering). Thermal annealing is the only part of the production process, which should improve the (uniform to all shafts). Good would be even more uniform distribution of nodes. But otherwise I'm happy (more than 400 arrows - different variants).stiventiger wrote:
..i said before kashi and other's copy my shafts with poor quality:not straight,no sand smooth,no spine accurate,very bant and poor quality heavy bamboo specie and poor machine(almost no machine) process of production,he is DIY person who haven't exprenced on bamboo shafts making,our workers have 10 years more and he is single person with less exprence ,we are group of people with 10 years more and more advanced machines on each process.and very strictly quality control from material to last step.so,i say copy our shafts need 5 years minimum and many exprenced people and enough machine also varnish process is our unique invention and of course carbonization machine is also special and unique made by ourself only,how can he copy our quality standards shafts?bamboo shafts looks very simple(just stick),but if you make them into perfect bamboo arrow shafts,it is need a lot of thing:from selction of material and almost 30 steps and also lot of years exprenced in this field
1) stricly selection of bamboo and
2) some process is unqiue in the world after we make 10 years exprence of bamboo shafts,i guess almost nobday can copy,as some process and machines are very special designed by ourself and unique in the world.
i know your heart very well,i have special ability,i can see very clearly deeply core from surface story,jack farrell wrote:
Stiven; What is the Latin name of your bamboo?
we call tonkin bamboo
very good,but another important is:varnish or lacquer can keep bamboo shafts remain straight for long time and wax is easy to lose=it happane:when weather change very humid,bamboo shafts may be little bent,but with heavy varnish or lacquer(to cover small cell space of bamboo surface),bamboo shafts will be keep for long time,even some years,but japanese and korean bamboo shafts haven't use many varnish or lacquer or bad quality of varnish or lacquer,so,they have to make straighten again before each shoot,even during 1 month,our shafts withotu so complex steps:when you see enemy come or hunting,how you have time to starighten your arrows?may be 1 second delay,enemy's arrow will shoot through your chest.and may be the animal is dispeared,we prepare bamboo arrows shafts to treat them as real war bamboo arrows use.Orda Khan wrote:
Nice arrows again Ashbow. You should definitely get hold of some from Tiger, I'd agree with Jchocz about quality.
Stiven,
I don't use varnish or lacquer on my bamboo arrows. I use a fine sandpaper, 180-240 grade and lightly finish the entire shaft. This alone gives them a glass like finish and I finally apply some car wax polish. You don't really notice the shine when you shoot as you are more focused on the target.
in fact best advantage of bamboo arrow shafts is its longth,bamboo arrow can be very straight even 100-110cm long,but wood only 76-80cm maxium( i guess),if wood arrow is too long,it will be very bent,as wood haven't long and stiff fibre.and wood is solid and bamboo is hollow,so,it fly as float during the air in straith direction,after many times shoot,i guess bamboo arrow will take position of tranditional wood after 5-10 years,if people start to try bamboo arrows,he will neve leave it,as it will take him exciting and happy and surprice feeling for its art and beauty looking and faster fly speed in wommm line and increasing each shooter's accurate at target,and it is also take buyer some good money when he involve bamboo arrows business and take him some very positive reputation,more important after many years trainning with bamboo arrows,he will become very stiff,tolenrence and very straight personality(like bamboo arrow's spirit) which take him more suceed in his life.
many chinese people who live near bamboo forest have bamboo spirit/soal: very stiff and tolenrence and straight and also reflexbility personality.
if people like art looking shine,he just use car wax on the shafts,and shafts will be very shine under sun and absorb more people to enjoying seeingOrda Khan wrote:
If there was a chance of the arrows becoming wet I would use a varnish. I've had no problems with arrows caused by fluctuation in humidity and once straight they generally remain that way, I made arrows for my wife some years ago and they are still perfectly straight. Whereas varnish does protect, it can still be damaged if the arrow goes into the dirt, stone scratches etc. It's all down to personal taste I suppose, same thing with decorating or cresting, I just prefer a more natural look.
any very hard wood is better for making nockginni wrote:
Jack, what wood do you use for nocks?
Nocks with style. I like them.
Specifications: Length 33.5 "for bows 60-65 lb weight 33-35 grams.
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very nice arrows,i see some newest uk and usa film,people use bamboo arrows to shoot,as if people start to love bamboo arrows very much
i find out most western person here think to make bamboo shafts into very very detail analysisi and deeply science research,like doctor work on eye operation.i respect such culture which lead western and usa go so far in frond of other nationality.that is really postive culture or habbit.
now in china,very less and less chinese have so big patience to do so such work
I'll shoot them tonight and then comes the laborious job of removing all the silk and replacing it.
On a brighter note, they fly very well.
We had an American visitor to our club and he thought the finish was quite nice and added an element of age. I suppose it does look more antique.
Here are a series of photos. My wife's old arrows with new whipping; my new arrows, complete and incomplete and three new shafts that are a bit longer. I'm using wooden nocks on these, shaped from a small branch of seasoned Holly.
Sorry, no bamboo-shafts!
It's good to see you keep up making your own good quality bamboo arrow shafts, they all look lovely on the pictures. I see you got hold of some pheasant feathers as well.
I have to admit you keep tempting me with your shafts and I was wondering if it's possible to get a small amount of them of you sometime? When I finally have some time I would love to craft myself a set of good bamboos, and so far I can't think of a better source around, ha!
I've just started to stockpile pheasant feathers.
edit: The pheasant fletchings were a selection but not all were good. Some showed distinct shot damage, holes in quills etc, in fact two of those fletchings needed to be spliced because of missing areas.
Jim and I went in and bought 200 sticks to get a larger source to choose from. These were the 1m long, #60, 35 gram weight. Cost was a little over $300 USD delivered. The package was opened by customs, reclosed and arrived less than a week after payment. There was a strong smell of the finish which dissipated after several days. Shafts were in 2 groups of sizes of the point end.
A spacing was left on all shafts above the fletch node such that only 23 sticks had a space less than 7". We then cut all the small diameter shafts into my favorite layout and reduced the overall lengths to 32" and weighed the shafts, writing the weight to the tenth gram on the nock end with permanent marker.
Sticks were grouped by one gram yeilding about 25 in a group for 27, 26, 25, 24, and 23 grams. Very few shafts weighed less but the balance weighed more in smaller and smaller groups.
About the straightness; only a couple of sticks were useless, probably 60% could use some degree of restraightening and maybe 35% were as straight as anything I have ever made. Direct heat with gas flame did not degrade the finish but did produce some offgassing.
I also had a small complaint about a previous purchase which Stiven made good two times over. You should be lucky if he makes a mistake on your order.
After all the grief I have placed on him here I must say that I am completely satisfied with his product and enthusiastically recommend his arrow products and service which demanding Americans have come to expect.
Then I guess you are better at complaining than I am. :lol:jack farrell wrote:
I also had a small complaint about a previous purchase which Stiven made good two times over. You should be lucky if he makes a mistake on your order.
Daniel
i know many bamboo specification,but i can say our bamboo material may be is the best for making bamboo arrows,i always think japan and korean bamboo is not so straight as ours,also their bamboo wall is thin,is not so stuff for making bamboo arrow,sjust their bamboo is lighter,so,with 40-70lbs bow,i think nobady feel only 3-5grams diffirence,and also our bamboo is medium weight,as arrows,3 conditions are most important:
1)very very straight
2)very very stiff/tolerence to let you repeat many times shoot without damage
3)proper weight(25-35grams/each for 33" and 30-40grams for 39.4"):not heavy,not light(if too lighter,strong wind or medium rain will blow/hit it out target)
our bamboo arrow shafts are match the 3 conditions,of course,economic price is the king,if expensive,nobady or very less use it even it is highest quality,busines like war and if youwan t win the war need brave and corage and expence and practical soldier,not need many engineer,even they are very smart people.wild and uneducated boys always have a beautiful wife than many doctors,:when you find a chance,take it immidiatly,otherwise others will take it.no time to pitty when you return to see old story.
Please follow this description of Tonklin cane. The internodes, the space between the nodes, tapers. At the node the diameter returns to a larger size and tapers to the next node. The nodes on a raw stick are swollen. To straighten this stick the nodes are sanded down then the entire stick is sanded down. But the overall shaft is not like a dowel or a tapered dowel. There is still tapering and return to larger and smaller diameter.
Sometimes the internodes do not sit on eachother in a centered way. These sticks cannot be improved and are not appropriate for arrows.
This exact wavering in diameter is seen in historic Mughal arrows. Tonkin cane is very strong and a superior arrow making material.
But it is nonsense to compare it to Korean or Japanese arrows. Pseudosasa has one even taper from bottom to top and the nodes are not swollen. There is a prominent eye and gently tapering groove on Pseudosasa. If you own Japanese or Korean arrows, you are owning artwork. This is reflected in the price.
I personally prefer tonkin cane even though I have Pseudosasa because I can get the spine from a smaller diameter shaft and can choose from a greater number of shafts. Worldwide, archers spin arrows while balanced on the thumb nail and finger nail to check for straightness. Even a really good tonkin cane arrow might have difficulty passing this test.
Sorry for the long post. -j-
yes,i need second seller,it is first design selling way before i sold them,i need many many partners to spread these bamboo shafts,as my dream is that bamboo arrows will cover each angle of the world,i realise it is possibles,as it is the better quality than any wood shafts.
just need market develop,any business must think 3 parts:
1) special desin and very nice quality products
2)open and discover even creat many new market
3) each secondary seller think how to run his capital efeciency to ganrantee his business can be keep go so far,now what i do is second points,as quality is already match most buyer's request,and 3th is seller's right controlled
I'm surprised you say this Jack, I'd have thought it easier to find the light shafts you use from Pseudosasa than Tonkin. The shafts that I cut almost always weigh a good deal less than Tonkin of comparable length and diameter.jack farrell wrote:
I personally prefer tonkin cane even though I have Pseudosasa because I can get the spine from a smaller diameter shaft
Obviously, it is more convenient to select and grade arrows from prepared shafts than live culms.
http://atarn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1952
I also took advantage of a sunny day and harvested some more culms that should be enough for quite some time.
Daniel; Because shipping is about 40% of an order from Stiven, any adjustment to a single order would negate his sale.
yes,international express worldwide take 30%-40% of total price and here it is rule taht if more weight,more cheaper price total,so,i often ask buyer to order more and more amount,of course if buyer order more,i can down the price even 20-30%,but it is pitty,many person don't know it and always think i want to sell them more,in fact people who listen my oipion ,all people get their maxium profits than small order people.
in china old culture,negate the price is the natural thing,like breathe or drink water,important i always try to give buyers maxium benefit to let them run their business much better.
A huge thankyou to Ashbow for generously providing the stunning pheasant feathers to finish them (I hope you like the result)
There is a 7th arrow but the fletch node is about an inch different to the others, so I left it out.
Congratulations on the arrows, they look carefully made, it seems to me that I'm decieved by the pictures though, and in reality the arrows are smaller in size. They look fast and accurate.
I look forward to hearing how the paper wraps take the abuse of shooting.
33 "long, 45 to 50 lb, weight 30 grams, pheasant feathers
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Emergency curiosity - split bamboo ... 33 "long, 60 to 70 lb, weight 34 to 36 grams, 6" long feathers, pheasant feathers
2 arrows on the photograph are available on the length of 31 "
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Arrows Test Kit - rods (bamboo shafts HEXA) ... 30 "length, 55-60 lb, 32-34 grams
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Interestingly ... I have made ​​inventories of finished rods (point, nocks) about 100 to the club, for friends and for sale ... shows only part
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33 "length, 60 to 70 lb bow, 6" long pheasant feathers
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