Kviljos Egyptian and Akkadian composites
I hope to be able to put together an egyptian composite this winter. I have been searching through the forum and atarn.org for information, and will be working out from Jack Farrells drawing and forum posts.
Today I made the form, which I interpreted to consist of two circles. Is this correct, Jack? Is there anything that you would have done differently from the one that is documented at atarn.org? http://www.atarn.org/islamic/egyptian_composite.htm
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Today I made the form, which I interpreted to consist of two circles. Is this correct, Jack? Is there anything that you would have done differently from the one that is documented at atarn.org? http://www.atarn.org/islamic/egyptian_composite.htm
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Kviljo; Let me say first that there is a lot of literature on these bows; about 40 of them in museum collections, most of which are in poor enough condition to make out the general construction. This is a slightly simplified version on an actual one.
This bow failed, as I believe I posted. The cause was core failure. In that I have concluded that American ash is not so stout as other versions, at least for hornbow construction.
So, reluctantly, I went to hard maple. It can be documented that there was maple in Lebanon at the time. Strangely, all hornbow making materials had to be imported into Egypt. I also added a horn riser below the horn belly grip splice. Did you all know that horn is easy to glue to horn?
Check this attached bow form and see if it is the same as the one pictured. There are actually several variations on the angular shape and I was seeking one like the drawing in the plans. Other than the strung shape not being my most desired, the black bow was totally successful.
I have since made another angular bow, shorter and much stouter than the one in my article. It has the most desired shape but I am still afraid to draw it fully.
My perennial problem now is too much wood in my bows.
Make the bow in the plans several inches shorter for a harder hitting version.
This bow failed, as I believe I posted. The cause was core failure. In that I have concluded that American ash is not so stout as other versions, at least for hornbow construction.
So, reluctantly, I went to hard maple. It can be documented that there was maple in Lebanon at the time. Strangely, all hornbow making materials had to be imported into Egypt. I also added a horn riser below the horn belly grip splice. Did you all know that horn is easy to glue to horn?
Check this attached bow form and see if it is the same as the one pictured. There are actually several variations on the angular shape and I was seeking one like the drawing in the plans. Other than the strung shape not being my most desired, the black bow was totally successful.
I have since made another angular bow, shorter and much stouter than the one in my article. It has the most desired shape but I am still afraid to draw it fully.
My perennial problem now is too much wood in my bows.
Make the bow in the plans several inches shorter for a harder hitting version.
Make sure that the wood riser has a very thin (like paper) edge or it will create a hinging point.
Brilliant. Thanks for the "re-visit" :)
I have reserved a copy of the book by McLeod, but I will probably finish the bow before I recieve the book.
How did the core fail? Did it split or did it fail in tension? I'm sure you used edge grain? The european ash seems to be a little softer and ductile. It might withstand more in tension than the american. I will start with maple, but it would be nice to have a go with my lokal ash as a core some time. Anyway, I am usually very sceptical of older wood species analyses because they tend to be very unreliable...
My form consists of two perfect circles. Perhaps I should straighten the tips a little and make them bend less in the bow.
I will be using water buffalo horn, and I don't think they are long enough for the 57" bow, so I will probably have to shorten it quite a bit. Would it be okay to have the horn end a few inches from the tips, while making the tips bend as little as in a wood bow? - or is it clear that the horn has gone all the way out to the tips in all the original bows?
I have reserved a copy of the book by McLeod, but I will probably finish the bow before I recieve the book.
How did the core fail? Did it split or did it fail in tension? I'm sure you used edge grain? The european ash seems to be a little softer and ductile. It might withstand more in tension than the american. I will start with maple, but it would be nice to have a go with my lokal ash as a core some time. Anyway, I am usually very sceptical of older wood species analyses because they tend to be very unreliable...
My form consists of two perfect circles. Perhaps I should straighten the tips a little and make them bend less in the bow.
I will be using water buffalo horn, and I don't think they are long enough for the 57" bow, so I will probably have to shorten it quite a bit. Would it be okay to have the horn end a few inches from the tips, while making the tips bend as little as in a wood bow? - or is it clear that the horn has gone all the way out to the tips in all the original bows?
McLeod is in two volumes. The other is also very good.
My bow is the Sakkara also called Saqqhara or the Brooklyn bow from its museum. McLeod, 1960.
My core suffered 5 tension shears. I soaked off the horn and reused in the current version. Happy to hear your assessment on older wood ID. Is there some reference?
Straighten the grip and give a little more curve to the tips. (Just as in the shape of an Ibex horn.)
The maker of the Sakkhara bow had a horn problem too. One belly is long with several short pieces, maybe 6" in total, carrying the horn to the tip. The other belly has one long piece about 3/5 of the length, another about 2/5 butted and two pieces, about 6" total, carrying the belly to the tip.
The belly slat was twice the thickness of the back slat at the grip and both are tapered before the horn was applied.
To my eye, many of these bows have had slats of some type added to the grip to stiffen what appears to be a design weakness in that area.
I apologize for usurping your topic. -j-
My bow is the Sakkara also called Saqqhara or the Brooklyn bow from its museum. McLeod, 1960.
My core suffered 5 tension shears. I soaked off the horn and reused in the current version. Happy to hear your assessment on older wood ID. Is there some reference?
Straighten the grip and give a little more curve to the tips. (Just as in the shape of an Ibex horn.)
The maker of the Sakkhara bow had a horn problem too. One belly is long with several short pieces, maybe 6" in total, carrying the horn to the tip. The other belly has one long piece about 3/5 of the length, another about 2/5 butted and two pieces, about 6" total, carrying the belly to the tip.
The belly slat was twice the thickness of the back slat at the grip and both are tapered before the horn was applied.
To my eye, many of these bows have had slats of some type added to the grip to stiffen what appears to be a design weakness in that area.
I apologize for usurping your topic. -j-
Nothing to apologize for. This is great! Keep the keyboard going!
As far as I understood there are two books by McLeod - one on the composites and one on the selfbows? Both are heading in my direction very soon.
5 tension shears! That's a well broken bow. Clean side-to-side tension failures? If so, I would imagine that a too thin layer of sinew was the (or one of) reason(s). Ash is usually very good in tension, especially if the grain is good. It separates easily along the early growth rings though, and splits radially quite easily as well. Elm is probably far better, and perhaps quite easy to confuse with ash.
When I was working on my masters degree on the two-wood bows (which I have as my avatar), I came across many wood species IDs that later on had been rejected. Perhaps it is a special case though, because I was mainly dealing with the rather unusual pine compression-wood, which is way denser than normal pine. Quite easy to confuse with e.g. ash, if one only looks directly at it. I think one needs a microscope to do an ID properly, something that probably is more common to use today than it was in the 60s.
It is quite interesting to hear that one of Tut's bows had a belly consisting of "scrap pieces". Could this have been done because one knew that the bow was not going to be shot, or do you think it could work just as well as a bow with only two pieces of horn? - if we don't look at the dangers of string breakage. It might be a design that could tollerate this better than the later composites?
As far as I understood there are two books by McLeod - one on the composites and one on the selfbows? Both are heading in my direction very soon.
5 tension shears! That's a well broken bow. Clean side-to-side tension failures? If so, I would imagine that a too thin layer of sinew was the (or one of) reason(s). Ash is usually very good in tension, especially if the grain is good. It separates easily along the early growth rings though, and splits radially quite easily as well. Elm is probably far better, and perhaps quite easy to confuse with ash.
When I was working on my masters degree on the two-wood bows (which I have as my avatar), I came across many wood species IDs that later on had been rejected. Perhaps it is a special case though, because I was mainly dealing with the rather unusual pine compression-wood, which is way denser than normal pine. Quite easy to confuse with e.g. ash, if one only looks directly at it. I think one needs a microscope to do an ID properly, something that probably is more common to use today than it was in the 60s.
It is quite interesting to hear that one of Tut's bows had a belly consisting of "scrap pieces". Could this have been done because one knew that the bow was not going to be shot, or do you think it could work just as well as a bow with only two pieces of horn? - if we don't look at the dangers of string breakage. It might be a design that could tollerate this better than the later composites?
Not a King Tut bow but from the tomb of another king, as in citation. Bow making materials were in short supply and this was better than a self bow. Ibex had been exhausted from local supplies and it was demanded as tribute. Aegeans supplied Ibex as per tomb murals.
I also reported on this same splicing technique in a Mongol Empire bow.
I also reported on this same splicing technique in a Mongol Empire bow.
I've read McLeods 1970 book on the composides now. Lots of good information there. How the bows were measured lengthwise is not clear to me however. The total length versus the lenght along the curves is probably not all that different, but perhaps I have missed a word or two specifying how the measurements were taken?
My first test will be 130cm long, but I was quite happy that many of the originals were closer to 110cm long, which makes it easier to find suitable horns... :)
My first test will be 130cm long, but I was quite happy that many of the originals were closer to 110cm long, which makes it easier to find suitable horns... :)
I figured I needed to make a wooden trial run first, to get a feel for the dimentions and shape of the bows. - so I glued up an ash/beech/cherry wooden bow. It was a good test for the form I think. Before I glued it up I messed with the form and made the tips too reflexed. The wooden bow is however 20cm longer than my horn-version will be, so the recurved tips will not be present in the next trial.
I do see how the grip section will be the hardest part to replicate in these bows. It needs to be just right to get the proper bend and shape to the bow. Here's a couple of photos of the wooden test. I later modified it in different ways untill it broke. Learned a lot from it. Using a wood that frets easily on the belly is a good help in seeing how well the stresses are distributed.
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After this test, I have soaked and steamed some maple laminates. They are drying on the form now. Hoping to glue the core in a week or two.
I do see how the grip section will be the hardest part to replicate in these bows. It needs to be just right to get the proper bend and shape to the bow. Here's a couple of photos of the wooden test. I later modified it in different ways untill it broke. Learned a lot from it. Using a wood that frets easily on the belly is a good help in seeing how well the stresses are distributed.
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After this test, I have soaked and steamed some maple laminates. They are drying on the form now. Hoping to glue the core in a week or two.
There is always the question of exactly how these bows looked strung. I suspect that there was admiration for the triangular shape, however accurate that was. There are also artworks showing sub-triangular shapes with slight tendency to recurve. Confusion can also exist with wood self bows which have a similar shape but backwards.
As a side note I asked Dr. Wachsmann if there was a disconnect between artists (scribes) and militaria. He said there is even a text in which a father admonishes his son to become a scribe and how life will be better than a military man. He would have to sleep outside, walk about barefoot, deal with camp life.
Dr. W states that it is almost impossible to imagine ourselves in that time where everyone worked for a temple or the government or etc.
As a side note I asked Dr. Wachsmann if there was a disconnect between artists (scribes) and militaria. He said there is even a text in which a father admonishes his son to become a scribe and how life will be better than a military man. He would have to sleep outside, walk about barefoot, deal with camp life.
Dr. W states that it is almost impossible to imagine ourselves in that time where everyone worked for a temple or the government or etc.
In McLeod's book grooves extending a bit from the tips towards the grip are mentioned. I don't have the book here to look it up.
If the shape was fully triangular, grooves would be useless, but they could be there to guide the string when the tips section retains a curved shape when the bow is braced.
Daniel
If the shape was fully triangular, grooves would be useless, but they could be there to guide the string when the tips section retains a curved shape when the bow is braced.
Daniel
Daniel; An excellent point.
The grooves would also be useful if the string lengthened in use. Sinew and gut strings can alter in length through changes in moisture content in the air. An archer would not want his bow to twist or unbrace itself in the bow case before he had a chance to tie a new string knot. Also the string does not stop moving forward at the brace height when an arrow is shot so the grooves would be useful in that circumstance. I am sure there are other advantages.
According to McLeod, the grooves are not more than 1,5cm long. These must have been close to non-contact recurves.
I'm hesitating too much now :lol: I decided to make another wooden test before I continue on the horn version.
This one has got a maple core, one layer (15g) of sinew, and a belly of some 1960s compressed resinated beech used for skiis. It is very hard and stiff, so I kept the reflex low. I think it will end up with a slightly convex pyramid-shape when strung. I'll add some 50-60g of sinew and give an update on it. The grip is probably a little too thick, mainly because I made the extra center-laminate too thick.
The laminates for the horn version is steamed and shaped and ready for glue up some time soon.
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I'm hesitating too much now :lol: I decided to make another wooden test before I continue on the horn version.
This one has got a maple core, one layer (15g) of sinew, and a belly of some 1960s compressed resinated beech used for skiis. It is very hard and stiff, so I kept the reflex low. I think it will end up with a slightly convex pyramid-shape when strung. I'll add some 50-60g of sinew and give an update on it. The grip is probably a little too thick, mainly because I made the extra center-laminate too thick.
The laminates for the horn version is steamed and shaped and ready for glue up some time soon.
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You are like Bee , Kviljo . You fly from one flover to another. Dont eat much. Only litlle here , litlle there :lol: ...Very quickly for mi lazy world :shock:
How about using billets and Z-splice in the center. Would that be heretic?
Dusan, I am doing this as a full time job at the moment. Anyway, it is good to have a few projects to hang around waiting for the right mood :)
Jkekoni, I think so 8) I guess the grip would have to bend less with such a splice, but other than that I don't think anyone would notice, however.
Jkekoni, I think so 8) I guess the grip would have to bend less with such a splice, but other than that I don't think anyone would notice, however.
Some progress. The second test-run didn't work as I planned. The core broke because of a too stiff belly and too little sinew (to compensate for the stiff lignostone belly).
Anyway, I am going to put horns on this core tomorrow. The core consists of three laminates, a thin for the back, a short faded out core laminate and a thicker belly laminate. All according to a note I got from Jack F.. All three laminates are maple (kiln dried :roll: ).
The horns will meet at the grip, but I will have to add two smaller 6-10cm long horn bits at the tips. It will be 116cm long in total. For now I am keeping it as wide as bow 4 in McLeod's book (the golden bow).
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Anyway, I am going to put horns on this core tomorrow. The core consists of three laminates, a thin for the back, a short faded out core laminate and a thicker belly laminate. All according to a note I got from Jack F.. All three laminates are maple (kiln dried :roll: ).
The horns will meet at the grip, but I will have to add two smaller 6-10cm long horn bits at the tips. It will be 116cm long in total. For now I am keeping it as wide as bow 4 in McLeod's book (the golden bow).
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Alright, the horn and one layer of sinew is in place.
I think I may have overshot a little on the draw weight this time 8) Going to give it a fair amount of sinew - probably 100g plus a little, to make sure it stays in one piece. Not going to pull it into more reflex than it already has got too. I don't think pulling it into reflex may be too good for the butted horns at the bendy grip and tips...?
Anyway, I think and hope I have found a somewhat correct width-profile. Haven't seen a complete egyptian original from back or belly yet. Anyone?
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I think I may have overshot a little on the draw weight this time 8) Going to give it a fair amount of sinew - probably 100g plus a little, to make sure it stays in one piece. Not going to pull it into more reflex than it already has got too. I don't think pulling it into reflex may be too good for the butted horns at the bendy grip and tips...?
Anyway, I think and hope I have found a somewhat correct width-profile. Haven't seen a complete egyptian original from back or belly yet. Anyone?
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Ivar,
I am not so familiar with egyptian bows but i really can't stop look at this bow from time to time so i even get inspiration to make one. I wish this beauty to be a beast;-). Keep inform us about progress.
Greets
I am not so familiar with egyptian bows but i really can't stop look at this bow from time to time so i even get inspiration to make one. I wish this beauty to be a beast;-). Keep inform us about progress.
Greets
Another interesting attribute of some angular bows is a ridge on the horn belly. See McLeod, plate XIV. The Sakkara bow, your bow, lacks this detail; bow "I", I believe.
This is one more similarity with Scythian construction.
Nice job again. This may be a bear.
This is one more similarity with Scythian construction.
Nice job again. This may be a bear.
A small follow-up on this project. It is going to cure in a museum exhibition called "Bows and arrows", untill march 2012. Hopefully I will be able to finish it before the exhibition is leaving for the next museum. I feel quite confident that it will shoot some day, but it will be a monster to shoot :shock:
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Woho :D Working with composites is good for the soul. I've started on a similar angular bow, although this one is considerably thinner and narrower. It will be about 22mm wide and 20mm thick in the middle when it is finished.
I put on some sinew today, but are hesitating on pulling the tips together, because of the butted horns in the bending sections. Any suggestions on this? I do see that the reliefs depict them like not having much reflex at all, so I guess it is okay not to tie the limbs into reflex. Another related issue is where the horns are butted. With the bending grip it is not obvious that the horns were butted in the grip. Maybe it is better to use a long center strip, and butt two extra smaller pieces out towards the tips, like in the Brooklyn bow? - and maybe this is the norm among the angular bows?
I put on some sinew today, but are hesitating on pulling the tips together, because of the butted horns in the bending sections. Any suggestions on this? I do see that the reliefs depict them like not having much reflex at all, so I guess it is okay not to tie the limbs into reflex. Another related issue is where the horns are butted. With the bending grip it is not obvious that the horns were butted in the grip. Maybe it is better to use a long center strip, and butt two extra smaller pieces out towards the tips, like in the Brooklyn bow? - and maybe this is the norm among the angular bows?
Doesn't the Sakkhara bow have butted horn slats? I think McLeod gives limb dimensions on most of the bows.
Yes, I thought so. Did you use one long strip for the middle of the bow in your version? It seems like these bows do have more reflex close to the grip than they do towards the tips. Maybe this is an indication that it is better to use one long strip in the middle and two shorter horn strips towards the tips. I remember Adam mentioning somewhere that butted horns in the working limbs will always fail, but maybe this is not a problem in these bows which may be less stressed than later composites? Or maybe the horn buttt-joints were secured in some way? - maybe this is the function of the wooden side strips?
What I should have asked is whether one limb had two slats butted together to make the length in the plan?
Mine meet in the center of the grip but I do not like the hinging action so I also overlaid a horn riser across the grip. You can see in McLeod that many of these bows had a problem there and are built up with something.
The finished shape on all of these bows is rather straightish so I do not pull the tips together. Leave the possibility of improvements in bow making for later centuries.
I do not like to load down early bows with improvements of later times.
Mine meet in the center of the grip but I do not like the hinging action so I also overlaid a horn riser across the grip. You can see in McLeod that many of these bows had a problem there and are built up with something.
The finished shape on all of these bows is rather straightish so I do not pull the tips together. Leave the possibility of improvements in bow making for later centuries.
I do not like to load down early bows with improvements of later times.
Ah, I see. I take that as meaning that the butted joint in the grip was starting to open up too much after some use? I have used the same configuration, with two main horn laminates meeting in the center. One limb also have a 8cm extension to let the horn stretch all the way out to the tip.
Have you tried to butt the horns together mid-limb? The wooden side strips on some of these bows tell me that these bows maybe were not as stressed as later composite types, so maybe these butted joints were not a problem. In any case, it seems weird that a thousand year old tradition would keep making expensive composite bows that would deteriorate over use.
Have you tried to butt the horns together mid-limb? The wooden side strips on some of these bows tell me that these bows maybe were not as stressed as later composite types, so maybe these butted joints were not a problem. In any case, it seems weird that a thousand year old tradition would keep making expensive composite bows that would deteriorate over use.
The bow is coming along nicely. I have put on about 60 grammes of sinew now, and after two weeks of drying I test-braced it tonight. Its shape is very good - very close to a perfect triangle when braced, with a little recurvature in the tips. I'm happy! Now it only needs some extra sinew to even out the layer and some birch bark.
I'm considering wrapping the middle of it in sinew to cover the butted joints, but I'm not sure I will bother. Don't quite remember if there is any evidence some of these bows were wrapped in sinew...
I'm considering wrapping the middle of it in sinew to cover the butted joints, but I'm not sure I will bother. Don't quite remember if there is any evidence some of these bows were wrapped in sinew...
Woho! The angular bow turned out nicely! I have only given it two weeks drying time, but when I strung and drew it to 28 inches today, it only lost 2 inches of reflex - even just after taking the string off.
It is however only about 40 pounds at 28 inches and it is weighing 325 grammes, so I bet it is not stressed at all. It even lived through reversing itself once while tillering it. The tiller is still a bit uneven on full draw, but I will still do some more work on it.
It's dimensions are generally following some of the original bows, although I hope to make a more acurate version later - and also finish my first attempt, which will be a lot (!) heavier.
Now I am wondering what kind of finish I will give it. Birch bark would be very nice, but I seem to be struggeling with getting the glass-smooth surface without being in agony from sanding away so much sinew...
It is however only about 40 pounds at 28 inches and it is weighing 325 grammes, so I bet it is not stressed at all. It even lived through reversing itself once while tillering it. The tiller is still a bit uneven on full draw, but I will still do some more work on it.
It's dimensions are generally following some of the original bows, although I hope to make a more acurate version later - and also finish my first attempt, which will be a lot (!) heavier.
Now I am wondering what kind of finish I will give it. Birch bark would be very nice, but I seem to be struggeling with getting the glass-smooth surface without being in agony from sanding away so much sinew...
nice ! its like the old paintings come to life.
do you sand the sinew for tillering ?
do you sand the sinew for tillering ?
Yes, I think I will need to sand the sinew and horn to tiller it. At least untill I can not feel any uneven-ness in the limb taper. The core was nicely tapered, but I didn't do as good of a job on the horn and sinew. As long as the braced tiller is good, I don't think I will be able to make the full-draw tiller better with just heat and pressure.
I drew it a few times, and I must say it is really a brilliant design. It seems to be very stable, and even more smooth to draw than a full-size longbow. The angle at the grip also seems to give a very natural grip, that I imagine is very good for accuracy. Can't wait to shoot it! :D
I drew it a few times, and I must say it is really a brilliant design. It seems to be very stable, and even more smooth to draw than a full-size longbow. The angle at the grip also seems to give a very natural grip, that I imagine is very good for accuracy. Can't wait to shoot it! :D
Hi Kviljo,
PERFECT!
Peter
PERFECT!
Peter
Amazing and beautiful. Artist. My best regards. -j-
Thanks a lot for the kind words, guys :)
I bet I will have to start making another one now. For the next one I will use three pieces of horn, and butt them as far out on the limbs as possible. The middle of the bow should be the most stressed and with a single piece going through that part it should allow for a safe and good bend through the grip. - which might open for a little more bend in the grip also, giving it an even flatter draw-force curve.
Are there any indications of the draw weight of this type of bow, if one does not look too much to the King Tut-bows? Except for one, all the Tut-bows seem to be fairly lightweight.
I bet I will have to start making another one now. For the next one I will use three pieces of horn, and butt them as far out on the limbs as possible. The middle of the bow should be the most stressed and with a single piece going through that part it should allow for a safe and good bend through the grip. - which might open for a little more bend in the grip also, giving it an even flatter draw-force curve.
Are there any indications of the draw weight of this type of bow, if one does not look too much to the King Tut-bows? Except for one, all the Tut-bows seem to be fairly lightweight.
Looks very nice, can't wait to see more pictures!
Why do you think they were light bows? I have looked at bow #4 in particular because I like the decoration and the book gives dimensions of 32mm by 20mm for mid limb. This makes a heavy bow!
Daniel
Why do you think they were light bows? I have looked at bow #4 in particular because I like the decoration and the book gives dimensions of 32mm by 20mm for mid limb. This makes a heavy bow!
Daniel
That's the exception I was thinking of. I just read through your messages about your own angular bow. ~90 pounds for these dimentions! I had forgotten about this. :oops: So then I will pattern the next on the nr.4.
I guess there are few other indications of how heavy a "standard" angular bow would have been, if any?
I guess there are few other indications of how heavy a "standard" angular bow would have been, if any?
Edward McEwen told me he made an angular bow of over 90 lbs which was very smooth to shoot.
Ah, I see! I didn't remember I told about this one here. I was mostly looking at the decorations when I read the book! :roll:
Daniel, you mentioned your bow in some personal messages :) You should show it here.
Cool, Bede. Did he mention if he had followed measurements of some original bow?
Cool, Bede. Did he mention if he had followed measurements of some original bow?
He usually did, but he is an experimenter. Next time I talk to him I will ask. He was making heavier bows before the Mary Rose studies changed the attitude to heavy bows in the English speaking world. I remembering him discussing some high performance Hungarian style bows and some very effective crab bows.
Perfect!
Hope will see some nicely finished pics soon ;)
Congrats!
some help if U haven't got it
http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/ ... found.html
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Hope will see some nicely finished pics soon ;)
Congrats!
some help if U haven't got it
http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/ ... found.html
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So, I finished the angular bow this last weekend. Adjusted the tiller slightly, wrapped it in birch bark and put on several coats of shellac. The bow is just a little heavier than the comfort-weight for my wife, so this next weekend it will serve as an interesting flight bow for her at the annual flight championship. I have made some turkish-inspired flight arrows for it, and hope it will shoot at least 200 meters, even though it has a rather thick 15-strand dacron string and some added weight from the birch bark.
Anyway, I found some blurry cell-phone pictures, and thought I would share them. First one from the tillering before it was wrapped, and one after wrapping, together with some other bows I plan on using at the competition.
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Anyway, I found some blurry cell-phone pictures, and thought I would share them. First one from the tillering before it was wrapped, and one after wrapping, together with some other bows I plan on using at the competition.
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This last sunday my wife and I shot the bow at the flight shoot, and got what I think is some decent distances. Gabriela managed 160,5 meters at the competition, which gave her a second place in the competition, and I later shot about 195 meters with a longer 28-inch draw. It is really a joy to shoot, much more speedy than a similar weight longbow, and there is very little hand shock, even with light flight arrows.
I think this design might do it fairly well if the draw weight was higher. Anyway, I'm really happy with the bow. Learned a lot, and I hope to make at least one more of these during the winter.
I think this design might do it fairly well if the draw weight was higher. Anyway, I'm really happy with the bow. Learned a lot, and I hope to make at least one more of these during the winter.
Love it!
Me too, hehe. :D The bow also seems to love being shot, because I just measured its reflex, and incredibly it has gained one inch of reflex since I took the photos of it on the tiller some time ago. - and that even after just being unstrung and shot during the weekend. It now has 6,5 inches of reflex, and pulls exactly 40 pounds at 28 inches. A little heavier than I had first thought.
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We did some practise-flight shooting today with this bow. With the same arrow as last time - a 29 inch spruce arrow following turkish flight arrow thicknesses, it shot 222 meters with only a very slight wind in the back. I think there is still some meters to gain, as the bow probably could use an even lighter and thinner arrow.
The bow also surpriced us with reversing itself after shooting one of the flight arrows. It had never done that before, and did not continue to do so after I raised the brace height an inch. So it seems this bow likes to have a rather high brace height. The bow does not seem to have taken any damage from the event, however. I wonder if a similar but heavier and stiffer bow would have the same tendency to reverse itself. Maybe it is better to use less reflex, perhaps as little as the original bows show.
The bow also surpriced us with reversing itself after shooting one of the flight arrows. It had never done that before, and did not continue to do so after I raised the brace height an inch. So it seems this bow likes to have a rather high brace height. The bow does not seem to have taken any damage from the event, however. I wonder if a similar but heavier and stiffer bow would have the same tendency to reverse itself. Maybe it is better to use less reflex, perhaps as little as the original bows show.
I have started making two new egyptian angular bows now. Both are shorter than the previous one, at 112cm along the curves. One of them will have the conventional layout, with the horn on the belly, plus the wooden side strips.
The other will have an internal strip of vertical horn with two wooden strips on the sides, like the scythian bows. I have yet to go thoroughly through McLeods book, but I was thinking maybe someone here knew something about this type of egyptian bow? I remember JJ posting a picture of such a bow some time ago. I think it was two bows that was in Germany on loan from the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York. Other than those two sources I don't know of anything regarding these early? types of angular bows.
Anyone made one with a vertical horn strip? I guess I'll have to expect some more string follow, compared to the more conventional layout.
I have made the two wooden strips, and are planning on making the central vertical horn core from a few (as few as possible) pieces of side-wall. I'm thinking of joining the horn pieces together with 2-3" long simple scarf-joints. - much inspired by the eminent scythian-bow-makers on this forum... :)
The other will have an internal strip of vertical horn with two wooden strips on the sides, like the scythian bows. I have yet to go thoroughly through McLeods book, but I was thinking maybe someone here knew something about this type of egyptian bow? I remember JJ posting a picture of such a bow some time ago. I think it was two bows that was in Germany on loan from the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York. Other than those two sources I don't know of anything regarding these early? types of angular bows.
Anyone made one with a vertical horn strip? I guess I'll have to expect some more string follow, compared to the more conventional layout.
I have made the two wooden strips, and are planning on making the central vertical horn core from a few (as few as possible) pieces of side-wall. I'm thinking of joining the horn pieces together with 2-3" long simple scarf-joints. - much inspired by the eminent scythian-bow-makers on this forum... :)
Here's some progress on the more conventional one. My first one had the horns buttet together in the middle, but this one will have three horn pieces. That way the splices will end up in the midlimb to outer limb area, where I suspect they will be under less stress. This is the way the Brooklyn-bow was made. This one will also have the wooden side strips, which I think might provide some extra stability, so that it will not be as prone to reverse itself while shooting.
Any thoughts are of course welcome.
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Any thoughts are of course welcome.
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So, the bow is coming along nicely. The three pieces of horn was glued on without trouble, and the width was reduced to the measurements of nr.9 in the book on Tuts bows. the central core with horn is now 13mm wide at midlimb, and 18mm wide at the handle. Tonight I glued on these two wooden side strips, which will add a little under 2mm to each side of the bow. Before glueing them on, I reduced the edges of the horn down to about 2mm, which is now covered by the side strips.
I'm really happy with how it turns out, although I am pretty surpriced by how little horn this bow ends up with. The strips are only loosely placed on the bow in the second picture.
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I'm really happy with how it turns out, although I am pretty surpriced by how little horn this bow ends up with. The strips are only loosely placed on the bow in the second picture.
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Kviljo what kind of book is this? I am started to get interested!
It's "Composite bow from the tomb of Tutankhamun" by W. McLeod. 1970. Oxford. There's also a book on the self bows.
One of my precious... :)
One of my precious... :)
thanks,
I hope they will be in my collection as well soon!
I hope they will be in my collection as well soon!
Some time ago I got inspired to start on a "double" angular bow, or rather an Akkadian composite. I guess it could also be seen as a scythian without the recurves. Anyway, this is the first prototype, which will be rather light, as the horn that I used was no thicker than 2mm in places...
Intresting, looks like western scythian. I fear about very short and stacking draw lenght. I think lenght about 150 cm it is minimum with this design.
I think you are right that this design will be stacking more than the egyptian, but I hope it will not be too bad. After all, the egyptian allow a very long and smooth draw, even at pretty short lengths. I guess it needs to have a proper bend alle the way through the handle to work well.
Ashurbanipal, Assyrian king 685 BC ? 627 BC, ?the lion hunt?. The nocks are carved in the form of a lion?s head.( Poor cell phone photo). The museum has many detailed relief carvings of Assyrian bows and archers. All the bows are a triangular braced and somewhat semi-circular drawn, fire a long arrow more than half bow length, slightly recurved at tips. Warrior bows have birds head carved to nocks. Bow lengths I guess at 120 cm and some longer, braced tip on ground and nock just under archers head. Very strong bows and carvings preserve detail of construction.
It is important to realise these bas reliefs are from several different reigns. The earlier ones have simpler bow nocks and the later ones have a more turned over tip. The current belief is that Elamite bowyers captured in several campaigns introduced a more rolled over tip which the Assyrians adopted because it had some kind of advantage. You will be in the position to test this with your bows.
Glad to see your use of inner tube strips. The glue up time is much reduced and the strips help to align the horn on the wood core.
Bravo for your first attempt at Akkadian. Since the first record of this type precedes the Scythian type by about 2000 years, it is surprising that it might be associated with Scythians. To date my only indication of this is that one picture from the Chinese internet. Stephen might have said something about this at one type but it was not clear if he saw an Akkadian type bow in a Xinjaing burial or not.
Then there was that art work from a Turkish burial a chamber.
Bravo for your first attempt at Akkadian. Since the first record of this type precedes the Scythian type by about 2000 years, it is surprising that it might be associated with Scythians. To date my only indication of this is that one picture from the Chinese internet. Stephen might have said something about this at one type but it was not clear if he saw an Akkadian type bow in a Xinjaing burial or not.
Then there was that art work from a Turkish burial a chamber.
The method with the inner tubes is definitely fast. I especially like it as I tend to glue up several bows when I'm at it, and this allows me to do so without buying another 30-40 C-clamps :)
I'll post the picture that inspired me. It is one that I think Jack shared on Facebook a while ago I think. Maybe Stephen has found some more information on the type of bow?
I guess long and slow changes is typical for bows. After all, the longbow has stayed basically the same for 5000 years or so, or at least well over 1000 years of same-type-of-bow from the Nydam-bows to the Mary Rose bows. The composites might however be more prone to design-change due to the pliability of horn and sinew.
I'll post the picture that inspired me. It is one that I think Jack shared on Facebook a while ago I think. Maybe Stephen has found some more information on the type of bow?
I guess long and slow changes is typical for bows. After all, the longbow has stayed basically the same for 5000 years or so, or at least well over 1000 years of same-type-of-bow from the Nydam-bows to the Mary Rose bows. The composites might however be more prone to design-change due to the pliability of horn and sinew.
How long are the 3 pieces of horn.Kviljo wrote:
So, the bow is coming along nicely. The three pieces of horn was glued on without trouble, and the width was reduced to the measurements of nr.9 in the book on Tuts bows. the central core with horn is now 13mm wide at midlimb, and 18mm wide at the handle. Tonight I glued on these two wooden side strips, which will add a little under 2mm to each side of the bow. Before glueing them on, I reduced the edges of the horn down to about 2mm, which is now covered by the side strips.
I'm really happy with how it turns out, although I am pretty surpriced by how little horn this bow ends up with. The strips are only loosely placed on the bow in the second picture.
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I'm trying to make a horn bow with pi?ces of horn.
http://www.webarcherie.com/index.php/to ... ire-en-os/
Thank you.
The middle horn is covering perhaps a little under half the bows length. It is not optimal, but it seems like the egyptians did it this way on at least one bow. Just make sure to reduce the stress around the butted ends, and perhaps add some sinew wrapping.
This bow has actually been strung now, but it turned out to be too unstable as I did a mistake and reduced the width too much. I will add some strips of wood to the sides to make it more stable.
This bow has actually been strung now, but it turned out to be too unstable as I did a mistake and reduced the width too much. I will add some strips of wood to the sides to make it more stable.