Turkish Bows

Since I have available space left. Same source.

Is that a string bridge on the left bow?

Would you say that these bows were about 42 inches long?

The very short grips of these are quite interesting. It's not common to see modern made turkish bows with such short grips. I wonder if it partly is a visual effect of the belly being rounder in the originals.

These quivers usually average around 45 cm long. That might help in scaling the bows. The nocks on the arrows are interesting since they seem to be short-lipped and built for thick strings.

Many of these bows had bridges or string pads as one might say. I will leave analysis to Adam since this is his bailiwick. I think all 4 are upside down.

Very good observation about the short grip - this will reduce stack in a short bow and lengthen the working limb for less stress.

It seems some of these bows had bridges added on as needed for stability. The bow with bridges has the kasans below the tips somewhat rounded, which (with no bridges) caused the string to contact the kasan there making the bow prone to twisting. I would expect the bow could need the bridges for stability.

Many of the bows from the border regions and from the later times (17th c.) look like hybrids between the typical Crim-Tatar and Turkish - shorter than CT, and with bridges, but with no (or minimal) grip set back. Many bows of this style could be made by the Turkish bowyers in the major centers, such as Istanbul, which may explain the hybrid construction. The bridges could offer not only better stability, but also make the war bows more durable by adding the stronger horn in the critical areas of string impact. These bows had horn inserts in the tips as well.

Adam

Wiena is 130 km from me... Some details pics if you liked.

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Great pictures, thanks.
I am planning a trip to Vienna myself, could you name me the places/museums etc, which show arms/armour/flags etc of the 2 sieges?
thanks

Second point is, for example in the Dresden Tuerckencammer collection you see similar bows, which seem to be Tatar/Ottoman hybrids.

If you look at Ottoman miniatures, you often see small bows, which have similar kasan/bash angles, some are so curved, they look like Scythian bows and the kasans almost meet together at full draw. Of course miniatures are a bit distorted and sometimes out of proportion, but still could you say that these bows are similar to the ones we were talking about?

Furthermore, what I find interesting is that most of the Turkish bows made today dont resemble the bows in the old miniatures.
I have seen an old picture of Adam with such a small dark coloured bow with similar angles, maybe he can give us more information about it.
thanks

Gokmen

Gokmen, do you mean this one:
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Yes, exactly this one, thank you.
You see the kasan/bash angle is smaller than the usual Turkish bows, there is string bridges and the overall length and shape is similar to the ones in the miniatures.

That means Adam must have experimented with this type also.
I am curious to know the characteristics of such a bow. It must have phenomenal cast. And the advantages for a horsearcher are obvious.

cheers

Gokmen

The advantage of the forward tips (less tip/kasan angle) is that the string will be slightly longer, therefore the bow will begin stacking a little later, plus the moment when the string lifts-off is a little later as well (slightly more enrgy stored). The longer string means the bow is under-drawn for the same mass and the performance is not better. This is assuming all other parts of the bows are exatly the same.

I have another two of those - identical, except the black one is about 80lb, the unfinished 95-100lb. I should have made the grips smaler though for less stack.

Adam

Hi Gokmen,

the bows on Dusans pictures you too find in "Old ATARNet archives vol. 1 / vol. 2".

Peter

Sorry,

like Jack wrote, you can see them in "Arsenal"; a famous military museum in Vienna.

Peter

Another adress in Vienna for ottomans bows, arrows and quivers: Kunsthistorisches Museum, section: Jagd- und R?stkammer

Adam; What great bows!

Here are some arrows and quivers from the same museum.

Kyudohund; Is the other museum the folk craft museum? I saw some other material there. We were not allowed to photograph and a guard followed us about! Maybe he was right to watch. I was told by a publisher in Germany that even if one "steals" a picture in Europe, it is the property of the photographer and they were willing to publish.

Some countries had sumptuary laws which prevented people from wearing objects not appropriate for their station in life. In a day when velvet was hand made like a rug, it was extremely expensive and reserved for elite persons. Thus this quiver (and all the others in the cases) may have been reserved for elites.

Maybe a Turkish ATARNite can comment.

One can easily make out that these arrows are split out of a coniferous wood. The arrows are in color coordinating sets rather than matching.

Beautiful equipment! I'm really looking forward to my visit to Vienna next week! Happy me! :)

These pics are from Wiena too, i thing. Nice bows!Pics are from mi friend.

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Jack, its the museum of historical art; this information is from the book "Reflexbogen". I didn?t see it myself. In Austria normally its not allowed to take pictures in a museum. Copyright???

Dusan: the first four pictures I made in the abbey of Kremsm?nster, about 25 km from my hometown. It was too not allowed to take fotos, but the nice guide-woman "looked away" :wink:

well, its very close 25 km... :lol: I envy you. I know its personal pics "secret shot". If its problem admin can delet . But i think for Atarns very interesting... 8)

No problem!

is it a copyright problem or a 'flash' problem why you cant take pictures in Austrian museums? That's a pity. What about video?
Seeing and taking pictures of Ottoman arms and armour was the main goal of my planned visit to Vienna.
Is there a good museum catalogue at least with good pictures?

G?kmen

G?kmen,

its a copyright problem.

You can have a look in www.khm.at - service - rights & reproduction.
This museum is a conclusion of some buildings in the center, which are very closed together, exept Schloss Ambras, which is in federal land of Tirol (about 400 km from Vienna). In some rooms are observation cameras, since a very clever thief came over a window in the museum and stole the world famous Saliera from Benvenuto Cellini. He was owner of a shop for secutity staff and ... drunken! He refunded it after three years. For him it was just a joke ... :lol:

The Arsenal (Heeresgeschichtliches Museum) with a section "The turkish wars", is in the south, look in www.hgm.at. When i was there, i had no problems to take a video, but nobody other was in the room. Ther are four bows, a few dozen of arrows, bow cases and quivers in one show case.

At the entrance of the museums, there are shops where are cataloques, postcards, pictures, etc. to sell.

I will inform me, if there is way to get a permission to take fotos.

Till then
Peter

Sorry Arsenal is www.hgm.or.at

I believe that the reason museums stop you from taking pictures is because if you do, the pictures belong to you. The museum wants to hoard the images so they might one day publish their own book and want strong demand.

In my eyes, this is in direct conflict with a museum's purpose to educate. You must pay admission already. It is all about money.

In 2001 everyone was allowed to photograph in the arsenal museum. So enjoy at my treat.

totally right :evil:

Peter, I did the virtual tour of that museum from the link you gave, pretty impressive all in all.

Jack, I think velvet was far more widespread with the Turks than in Europe. Remember the Europeans visitors of that time said 'they are going to war as if to a wedding' :)

Dusan, on your first set of pics you see the white nock of the arrow, do you think it is bone or white horn? I tested camel bone for nocks, it is very durable but it is also too heavy on the arrow.

Adam, I cant stop looking at those pics of your bows again and again. As a horsearcher I find them highly interesting.
Cem once told me the bows in the miniatures are so short that the kasans point towards each other and this makes the bow 'more stable' at full draw.
How do you achieve the negative angle of the kasans? In your book you wrote that the transition of sal/kasan is slightly thinner for warbows. Do the negative angled kasans have any other benefit?

thank you


G?kmen Altınkulp

I thing its white hard wood /like cornus mass or so../ and white color painting. Maybe (?)

Museums in Australia rarely have admission fees, but they do have for large foreign exhibitions. One of the reasons they don't like flash photography is the possibility of degrading fabrics and dyes (the same reason that they avoid direct sunlight). While mineral pigments are very stable and steel armour will not fade, arranging for some parts of a cabinet to be photographed and others not to be would be a nightmare.

Museums need to make money for the maintenance of their collections and to expand them. Selling photographs of their items is one way to raise money. I have bought photographs for research and if I want to use them I may have to pay a licensing fee for publication.

Here in Australia, we pay huge insurance costs to bring out international exhibitions. Damage in transit, theft or vandalism are real risks and insurance companies make sure they cover their exposure. In Brisbane, a major flood this year had people scrambling to get objects out of the path of the water. Therefore not all the money raised by entrance fees goes to the museum.

I suggest that it would be worthwhile to request photographs from the Museums directly. I know from personal experience that they don't always respond, but some museums are very helpful. If you explain that you want images for research and that the Museum would be fully acknowledged and that this would probably lead to more visitors, they might be more cooperative. Remember, the person standing on the floor directing the public will not be able to make a decision. You will have to approach the curator.

State museums are often stricter than private ones, but this is because everything they do is tied up in red tape and bureaucracy. I know that information I have found here on ATARN has led me to learn of collections that I otherwise would not have found for months, if ever. I think that, if the museums are made aware of the potential for exposure of their collections on this type of forum, they might be more cooperative.

Gokmen - I understand the "negative" angle of kasan means the kasans go beyond parallel. I do not believe this is realistic, since at this point the stacking would be unbearable and the draw weight much too high. The old pictures are exagerated for more interest and perhaps to show the prowess of the archers. This applies to the Turkish bows with short tips and flexible kasan/sal transitions (as for the war bows). Bows with these sections completely rigid and much recurved, such as the Indo-Persian bows, have the outer parts of sals beyond parallel at full draw, but this is not the same effect.

Adam

G?kmen,

good news: recieved a mail from "Kunsthistorisches Museum", taking fotos is allowed during opening times, without flash and stand! Think in Arsenal will be the same.

Peter

G?kmen,

if you send send me a mail to pm with your email adress, i will send you the mail from "Kunsthistorisches Museum", you can print it out and take with you to Vienna.

Pics from same Armory museum, late 15th C. ? I think.

I do not see any interference with people taking amateur type pictures in a museum, through the case, without flash and without a tripod. The museum is still free to make a publication of professional quality photos and publish. I do not see how the two processes interfere.

Many great museums allow photography. There is just no telling which ones will.

Close up. Save any of my pics you want. I am always needing to delete some, being at my limit.

I have been to the Arsenal and the Hofjagd- und R?stkammer. The latter one is part of the Kunsthistorisches Museum, but it is located in the building of the National Library.
Taking pictures was allowed in both museums, as already reported without flash. In the Arsenal, an additional fee of 1,50? has to be paid for permission to take pictures. I will sort through the pictures and post some later. It was difficult because there were few angles for reasonable pictures without excessive reflections from the glass.

I would be interested in measurements of the bows on display in both places. They are fairly thick, I estimate something like 17mm. The belly was deeply rounded, but that is still incredibly thick.
There is also one bow labeled as turkish which I think looks like a crab bow.


Daniel

You mean probably this nice bow (?)

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Looks like a Persian or one of the bows from Khorezm.

Here are some more arrows/quivers. I had always thought that these wood arrows had self nocks. But Dusan's comment about the nocks being added on makes me now wonder. Anyone handled old Turkish war arrows?

When one sees so many arrows in a quiver, it is understood just what a place archery held in their fighting style.

I guess we cannot know if these arrows are original to the quivers or if things have been moved about.

Another. The stitching looks like the one made by Ginni and posted recently.

Yes, Dusan, this is the bow I meant. Here is another picture:
http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/hhmf-35.jpg

There were lots of binding on some of the arrows. Why was this done? If it was only for the fletching, the feathers must have been really long.

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/hhmf-32.jpg
http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/hhmf-33.jpg
http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/hhmf-34.jpg

Here are some more pictures of the most beautiful arrows I have ever seen.

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/hhmf-36.jpg
http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/hhmf-37.jpg
http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/hhmf-38.jpg
http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/hhmf-39.jpg

Ouch , Daniel your pics are beatifull ! Many thanks .

These nocs look so much like plastic. Ivory?
http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/hhmf-38.jpg

Good pictures, Daniel. Thanks for these.

Looks like the red and blue with gold decorated arrows have ivory nocks added to a tenon on the arrow shaft.

In some of the others, I think I am seeing the grain of the shaft carry over through the paint of the nock.

Maybe white painted nocks are a reference to ivory. But a guy I know prefers white nocks to better see them sticking out of the target.

In the first light blue and white arrows, we once again see coordinating sets within the same quiver.

My "Armory" pic above shows a few points.

Jack,
I have handled two war arrows made in Ottoman Turkey and four in the Crimean Tatar style that may have been made in Istanbul. They are finely balanced and clearly intended for different types of target. Until I saw the Dresden catalogue, I did not have any comparisons to arrows made of several centuries. I think it is important to consider that many of the surviving arrows are in collections because they were in high status quivers that were either gifts, purchases or booty. Obviously rich people had expensive arrows made for them, but the plainer arrows might represent refills from the army supplies during a campaign. If this is the case, the quality of the plain arrows is quite high. While some arrows show different techniques of construction, like the seven part nocks, it seems that in general the arrow shafts are of a uniform standard. The German museums correctly identify practice arrows in the mix. There are also some flight arrows in the collections. The practice arrows, when compared to the descriptions in the Turkish sources, are forms of target arrow. Some of the arrows with target points in the Dresden collection have original surviving fletching. This is larger than typical puta arrows, which might mean they were for shorter range.

The arrows I have seen with armour-piercing styles of arrowheads usually had low fletching of a length appropriate to the length of the arrows.

Hi,

I tried to do some turkish arrows based from Hofburk museum. It was 7 years ago.

Here there are:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1162369058 ... Arrows1550

I used to information from here:
http://margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/artikel/turkish/

Spin is so great, I used them only for 70 lbs and more...