Choson Dynasty Hornbow in Museum

JJ; Does the museum not have any information where the bow came to them from?

I would suspect Mulberry would turn that color with age.

A Josen quiver stuffed with Mughal arrows!

Is the yellow wood the red wood cover by sinew+glue?

Wikipedia:
Joseon (July 1392 ? October 1897) (also Chosŏn, Choson, Chosun), was a Korean sovereign state[3] founded by Taejo Yi Seong-gye that lasted for approximately five centuries.

jkekoni, yes that?s it. First I thought it was sapwood but then I saw a very thin layer of sinew and glue, which probably stopped the underlying wood from darkening.

Jack, the museum staff there could give me no more information on the origin of the bow. It comes from an 19th century private collection. It is labelled as Old Kirghis Bow and quiver, which is certainly not true ;-))

:shock: Thanks for the great pictures !

Where is that museum (I live close to France) ?

just to be sure: there is no horn in this bow (and no signs that there was some before) ?

Uli, it?s the Mus?e de l?archerie in Crepy en Valois, north of Paris.

Your question concerning horn in the bow; please look at picture 2 and read the text under it again ;-))

JJ

alright silly question :-)
if you bring it to FR we can do a CT/MRI scan.. but well the construction seems to be clear anyways

Very thank you JJ! I know this bow from pics long time , and some time ago i use him like good example in discusion about "kasans" and ridge in old Korean bows . But your pics and measurments is very interesting !

This is what i dream somtime you guys who visit every year Korean WTAF can make-seriouz pics and realy claer measurments from old korean bows in Korean museums...

Dusan, I?m happy that you enjoy ;-)

I too was excited about this bow, I think they are quite rare. In Korea I never saw a bow like this in a museum; they are probably kept in some special places I have yet to find...

JJ

JJ; There are old Military bows in the Military Museum in Seoul. Use connections there to meet the director and he will be happy to make arrangements. They have a bookshop with illustrations of everything in the displays. I am not sure it is open to the public because it is on a military post.

Thank you for posting the pictures. You can really see how these bows, the Turkish, and Tatar bows were all "cousins" of each other. I very good representation of the evolution of these bows.

Thank you again for pictures and measurements.

Well, Jack. If you know where, and how...- its must be your special secret sevice Job for all us :lol: Be brave and do it , please :P

By my good luck; the director of this museum was assigned to be the discussant on my first paper to the WTAF. He asked if I wanted to see the museum and I brought two friends. We were allowed to photograph and then they gave us all the museum catalog. In there the bows are all given an overall measurement only. (We did not touch the bows which were in cases.)

Dusan; you have already posted these pictures on one post or another. They are on the internet. Someone copied the pics and put them online. There are not so many.

What I can say is that the majority of Korean war bows are in the 165 cm size and target bows are in the 126 cm size. The Crepy bow is 1.2 cm wider, at 4.2 cm, than the only old Korean target hornbow which I have to measure, at 3 cm; the Crepy bow at 12mm thick and mine at 9. If mine is about 50# then the Crepy bow would be massive. Maybe someone can explain the math.

If someone posts a Korean war bow, I will look up the size. His protocol excludes my contacting the director personally.

If you mean these pics from Korean museum site , yes - these are known .But not very high quality and measurments are only nececery data- long . I dream about more precise facts, Jack.
If all war bows is so long like you say_ somthing is wrong in Korean museums :lol: This bow from France is good example of realy good performance bows ...

Jack, I was once in the Military museum, but I can?t remember having seen similar bows. Do you have pictures of these?

It was not allowed to photograph so maybe my memory fails... I remember having seen enormous hornbows but these were supposed to be ceremonial bows for some ritual performed by the king. I think Thomas Duvernay has got a replica of one of these bows made by his bowmaker.

There were some old Korean target bows from the end of the 19th and beginning 20th century, but they were of the same type used today except greater setback and "cobra-head" style siyahs.

JJ

Pics what i mean is in this link, JJ.
http://www.sac.or.kr/eng/bows/bow.html
This is max what i know about old Korean bows...

I see it is necessary to go to Yeonsei Univerity Museum and Seoul National University Museum...

JJ; No wonder I could not find the pics! Mea culpa. But those interested should copy the pics from the site Dusan has once again brought up. Who knows if this info may disappear?

Thank you for your pics JJ.(please let me use your pics for my blog ^^)

The bow is similar to that of the Joseon's first king.(1335~1408 AD)

I think our ancestor used that shape of siyah(similar to arab, mongol etc) but later, changed the style(yet don't' know when), because it's easy to make and rigid.
bows in the musium of korean,(almost after late 19centuary~early 20c) shows evolution progressing.


and the quiver is to this military quiver(late 16c)...
but looks poor quality, and one piece.


I want to know how the french musium got the bow and quiver.

In 1866 , a french fleet invaded the Joseon, Ganghwa island(for reason of religion), and stoled many goods.
It can not exclude the bow and quiver are looted goods :cry:
If it's right, we can guess age of them!

anyway, thanks for safekeeping. :)

interesting facts and picture !
darn, imagine those arrows at full draw on this small bow.. :shock:

Yeah, at 100+# peak draw weight = awesome arrow trajectory!!! :D

Uli wrote:

interesting facts and picture !
darn, imagine those arrows at full draw on this small bow.. :shock:

The problem shooting light arrows with powerful bows is that unless the release is perfect the arrow leaves at an angle to its trajectory. This means a lot of the energy is used up straightening out the flight of the arrow and distance is reduced. Long draws, such as the Korean, are particularly susceptible to this problem. When you see arrows that seem so slender and long, it is an indication of the skill of the archers.

When you watch Korean traditional archers shoot, it is an opportunity to see how this problem can be overcome. Concentration and technique are the answer.

maruchi,

thanks for your comments and questions. This is for sure an exciting bow, as there are not many of these known and they leave a lot of questions.

Unfortunately the museum has no knowledge about the bow and it?s origins. In fact the bow is labeled inside the showcase as "Old Khirgis Bow". They say it comes from an old collection, but don?t know anything about how it was collected and brought to Europe.

It is remarkably similar to the bow on the B&W photograph of the bow that shall have belonged to King T?aejo, founder of Joseon dynasty in the 14th century. But how sure is this attribution? I think that it might be false. Artefacts are often mislabeled. Personally I wouldn?t believe that a bow type was built in exactly the same way over several centuries. On the other side the bow in France doesn?t look to me like a 600 years old bow. I would guess it to be max. 200 years old from it?s good state of preservation. Also I can?t imagine that the french bow could have belonged to a King, because the sinew layers are not covered by bark or leather. Also the repair patch on the end of one horn strip doesn?t look like it was made for a king. To me that seems to indicate that the bow in fact was a standard military bow.

The story about the french fleet attacking Ganghwa island in 1866 seems a logical explanation for the origin and dating of the bow.

I will try to see some of the other specimens of that bow type next time when I?m in Korea (at WTAF).

Maruchi asked for some more pictures, here we go ;-))

[external image]
Detail of Nock with rayskin cover in string notch resembling turkish nocks

[external image]
Ridge on "kasan"

[external image]
string bridge

[external image]
repair patch (I think this was already done during bow manufacture. I don?t believe the horn would break like this at this part of the bow.)

[external image]
the quiver (at left a piece of the bowstring)...


JJ

JJ, the kassan ridge is shaped from wooden core or is made from sinew? The shape of the ridge is very unusual.

Ginni, it is obviously carved into the wood. You?re right, it is the other way round like the ones we are used to (pointed end at knee, broad end in "kasan eye"

Thank you very very much JJ.

Your additional pics remind me some memories.

For hornbow we used two kinds of horn.

1. Blackhorn - it is long to reach siyah, import from other country, expensive, but it's basic manufacturing sytem is being countinued.

2. Countryhorn - it is shorter than blackhorn, korean country bull's horn, it was easy to get than blackhorn, but countryhornbow(향각궁/후궁hyanggakgung or hugung) it is difficult to produce than blackhornbow(흑각궁 /장궁hukgakgung or janggung) and performance, it can't reach blackhornbow, so it disappeared nowadays.


I think the bow used countryhorn.

Quite a bow, thanks for posting JJ.

The tips look as a "missing link" between the modern Korean and the Middle Eastern, while the carved ridge seems to have sinew only half way up. I think the bow has not been used much and was easily over a 100lb.

Adam

Maruchi,
I think you are right with the cow horn....

What?s your opinion on the "King T?aejo?s bow" and its datation? Do you know where it is?

[external image]

This black-and-white picture was taken late 19c or early 20c , maybe by japanise.
At that time, the bow was in Hamhung city north-korea, king taejo's native, he spent his last days after abdication.
I'm sorry but during the Korean-war, Hamhung was burned.
And now, South korean nobody knows about that.

If it exist, more 600 years..... after his demise(1408).... amazing!

As a matter of fact, I don't have a firm belief that the bow is taejo's,
without that simple picture, there is nothing remarks!
King taejo, he is the greatist archer ever i know, and he lived last Koryo(고려 origine of the Korea) periode.
The Koryo was influenced by the Mongol ; Yuan, and Hamhung city was near with Jurchen(여진yojin-they build Qing), they used big bow.
I know King taejo's rival general Choi-yong's big bow is in Japan's some temple. I'm really want to see the bow, to compare.


The other side, the bowcase, I'm sure it is king taejo's.

[external image]


[external image]

It is the same 15century old book's arabesque pattern.

JJ ,this is greet discovery
did you see the groove on the break horn?
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk22 ... G_8105.jpg

the sinew back layer very same like adam's technique

i think , her is right place /no need new threade/ -interesting article:

http://article.joinsmsn.com/news/articl ... id=2913328