Spencer Rodgers article (3-finger draw in China)
Has anyone had a chance to glance through Spencer Rodgers' article about "The Aboriginal Bow and Arrow of North American and Eastern Asia"? http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... a00060/pdf
What drew my attention was Map 6, showing the release styles used in Asia and North America --- thumb, 3-finger, pinch. The mapping (sourced from Clark Wissler) seems to suggest that the Chinese, Koreans and North Indians used the Mediterranean draw... which is totally counter to other sources I've read. Perhaps the map and the info are out of date?
What drew my attention was Map 6, showing the release styles used in Asia and North America --- thumb, 3-finger, pinch. The mapping (sourced from Clark Wissler) seems to suggest that the Chinese, Koreans and North Indians used the Mediterranean draw... which is totally counter to other sources I've read. Perhaps the map and the info are out of date?
I think Kroeber wrote an article on the distribution of arrow release.
It is certain from some monuments and literature that the Indians over the whole sub-continent used the three finger draw before the introduction of the thumb draw. There is also a reference to the South Chinese using three fingered draws at the same time as the North Chinese were using the thumb ring. The ancient state of Chu was renown for its archers. As well it should be pointed out that there were many ethnic groups practising archery in historical China. The Korea of the time of the article was the full peninsula and the accuracy of the map is doubtful. There were Siberian tribes north of Korean that used three fingers.
This article is old and some of the sources used have been superseded. Wissler, one of the sources, wrote in 1926. It has no primary sources for Asia and there were few available when it was written.
It is certain from some monuments and literature that the Indians over the whole sub-continent used the three finger draw before the introduction of the thumb draw. There is also a reference to the South Chinese using three fingered draws at the same time as the North Chinese were using the thumb ring. The ancient state of Chu was renown for its archers. As well it should be pointed out that there were many ethnic groups practising archery in historical China. The Korea of the time of the article was the full peninsula and the accuracy of the map is doubtful. There were Siberian tribes north of Korean that used three fingers.
This article is old and some of the sources used have been superseded. Wissler, one of the sources, wrote in 1926. It has no primary sources for Asia and there were few available when it was written.
This is very interesting, and an eye opener. I'm aware of Chinese thumb rings being recorded very early in history, but I'm less aware of references to Southern Chinese using the 3-finger draw. I'd love to get more information. Will I find the relevant Chinese sources in Kroeber, or are there other references I should look at?Bede wrote:
There is also a reference to the South Chinese using three fingered draws at the same time as the North Chinese were using the thumb ring. The ancient state of Chu was renown for its archers. As well it should be pointed out that there were many ethnic groups practising archery in historical China.
Once I get a more info, I'll have to edit the Wikipedia article to reflect this more complete picture.
I remember seeing something in Chinese Weapons, which was really just a compilation of literary quotes published posthumously. I will look in Needham. There might be something in there. I can't put my hand on my copy of Kroeber at the moment.
Cool! I will look to get a copy of Chinese Weapons...Bede wrote:
I remember seeing something in Chinese Weapons, which was really just a compilation of literary quotes published posthumously. I will look in Needham. There might be something in there. I can't put my hand on my copy of Kroeber at the moment.
Do you have the title of the Needham book/article you're referring to?
I might be able to get a hold of a copy of Kroeber here at one of the libraries...
"Needham" usually refers to Joseph Needham's Science and Civilisation in China series.
Gotcha. I don't have a copy of them, but maybe there's something in one of these Needham volumes?Hyarmendacil wrote:
"Needham" usually refers to Joseph Needham's Science and Civilisation in China series.
* Vol IV, Pt. 2. Mechanical Engineering. Joseph Needham, with the collaboration of Wang Ling (1965)
* Volume V, Pt. 6. Military Technology: Missiles and Sieges. Joseph Needham, Robin D.S. Yates, with the collaboration of Krzysztof Gawlikowski, Edward McEwen and Wang Ling (1994)
I've read Kroeber, and didn't find any mentions in the text about the southern Chinese using the 3-finger draw. Although Kroeber acknowledges that there is a lack of data, he actually criticizes Wissler's map for being inaccurate.
I've attached the map from Kroeber's 1927 article (the copyright should have expired, I hope). The symbols 1, 2, 3, E, O represent their respective releases. Symbols in parenthesis () indicate ancient use. Symbols without parenthesis indicate "modern/recent" use. The symbols connected by lines indicate areas where multiple releases are present.
At least for this map, it suggests that southwestern China bordered or was part of regions that used 3-finger and tertiary releases. The area that encompasses the State of Chu (722-221 BC) is wholly within the thumb release region. Granted, this is only a snapshot in time and probably does not reflect how things were 2000+ years previously.
I've attached the map from Kroeber's 1927 article (the copyright should have expired, I hope). The symbols 1, 2, 3, E, O represent their respective releases. Symbols in parenthesis () indicate ancient use. Symbols without parenthesis indicate "modern/recent" use. The symbols connected by lines indicate areas where multiple releases are present.
At least for this map, it suggests that southwestern China bordered or was part of regions that used 3-finger and tertiary releases. The area that encompasses the State of Chu (722-221 BC) is wholly within the thumb release region. Granted, this is only a snapshot in time and probably does not reflect how things were 2000+ years previously.
So I looked through a copy of "Chinese Weapons" by E.T.C. Werner. This is the 1972 edition (ISBN 0-89750-036-9).
The mention about a 3-finger draw by the Chinese is in the "Bow and Arrows" chapter under the section "Thumb-Pieces". It says "Pieces called <i>she</i> 韘 or <i>t'a</i> 沓, made of red reeds, are mentioned in the same work as being rings for the fore, middle, and ring fingers. They were used for pulling the bowstring." The Chinese work in question is the Commentary to <i>Shi hsiao ya</i> 诗小雅. The same work also mentions thumb rings made of ivory for pulling the bow string.
I'm curious about when Shi Hsiao Ya (Shi Xiao Ya / 诗小雅) was written. This will help us get an idea of the time period the Chinese were using a 3-finger draw.
The mention about a 3-finger draw by the Chinese is in the "Bow and Arrows" chapter under the section "Thumb-Pieces". It says "Pieces called <i>she</i> 韘 or <i>t'a</i> 沓, made of red reeds, are mentioned in the same work as being rings for the fore, middle, and ring fingers. They were used for pulling the bowstring." The Chinese work in question is the Commentary to <i>Shi hsiao ya</i> 诗小雅. The same work also mentions thumb rings made of ivory for pulling the bow string.
I'm curious about when Shi Hsiao Ya (Shi Xiao Ya / 诗小雅) was written. This will help us get an idea of the time period the Chinese were using a 3-finger draw.
Needham, Vol. V Part 6 has the discussion on archery in detail. I believe that the Chu kingdom had a separate tradition of archery, based on the construction of the bows that have been excavated. There are also some indications that two or three finger draws were imported with Scythian-style bows. One is Han tomb reliefs where short bows look as if they are being drawn with the fingers and another is the prevalence of bracers in Xinjiang tombs. This suggests to me that finger releases were not uncommon and contemporary with early thumb draws.
The suggestion that Chu kingdom archers used 3-finger draw is very intriguing, and is probably corroborated by the length of the arrows in the tomb findings. I recall reading an excerpt from the excavation of the Zeng Hou Yi tomb (circa 433 BC). Zeng was a vassal state of Chu. The bows were the typical bamboo or wood laminates for that region. However, the excavated arrows were only 67--71 cm in length.
As an aside, I wonder if Stephen's avatar (the illustration on the cover of "Chinese Archery") could actually be depicting a person in Scythian-style dress (especially the hat) pulling a Scythian-style bow with his fingers.
This brings up a follow-up question: if 3-finger draw diminished or disappeared in China, when did this happen? Could it have been before the Tang dynasty? I recall the excerpts from Wang Ju's Tang dynasty manual ("Chinese Archery", 9B) saying that only recognized styles of draw were thumb draws.
As an aside, I wonder if Stephen's avatar (the illustration on the cover of "Chinese Archery") could actually be depicting a person in Scythian-style dress (especially the hat) pulling a Scythian-style bow with his fingers.
This brings up a follow-up question: if 3-finger draw diminished or disappeared in China, when did this happen? Could it have been before the Tang dynasty? I recall the excerpts from Wang Ju's Tang dynasty manual ("Chinese Archery", 9B) saying that only recognized styles of draw were thumb draws.
With help from a friend, I encountered the Song dynasty book Xin Ding San Li Tu/新定三礼图 (which I guess translates to New Illustrations of the Three Rituals), written by Nie Chongyi (10th century AD). The book seems to illustrate various aspects of different Zhou-era (1046?256 BC) rituals, most notably the archery ritual. It shows the various officials, clothing, instruments (drums, qings, etc), targets, score keeping devices (such as a bucket shaped like a harpy into which you throw scoring sticks), as well as some bows and arrows. The illustrations are very zany and fascinating!
As per this discussion, Xin Ding San Li Tu actually illustrates a bracer (sui, 遂), and a finger tab (zhu ji san, 朱极三). Here the text describes the finger tab as being made of red reed and covering the index, middle and ring fingers. I'm posting the relevant page here --- the text is really old, but the digital reprint was assembled recently, so if there are copyright issues here, I'm happy to remove it. I just simply want to share with you how shocked I was when I saw this. :shock:
As for implications, this likely means that some Zhou-era people used 3-finger draw. Another interpretation is that the author inserted Song-era objects into the text (such as the bows, which looked Song-dynasty style to me), and that the bracer and tab reflect the archery habits of the Song Chinese (who were in the South).
As per this discussion, Xin Ding San Li Tu actually illustrates a bracer (sui, 遂), and a finger tab (zhu ji san, 朱极三). Here the text describes the finger tab as being made of red reed and covering the index, middle and ring fingers. I'm posting the relevant page here --- the text is really old, but the digital reprint was assembled recently, so if there are copyright issues here, I'm happy to remove it. I just simply want to share with you how shocked I was when I saw this. :shock:
As for implications, this likely means that some Zhou-era people used 3-finger draw. Another interpretation is that the author inserted Song-era objects into the text (such as the bows, which looked Song-dynasty style to me), and that the bracer and tab reflect the archery habits of the Song Chinese (who were in the South).
Justin Ma, can you post the pics of 新定三礼图　卷八 弓矢图 彤弓 #弓
Jiao, here is the excerpt showing the bows.
So I had a chance to read through Needham Vol. V, Part 6 (p. 101-130). I didn't see any mention of the Chinese using the 3-finger draw. However, I did see an illustration of the big-siyah bow 大稍弓/大弰弓 in Fig. 19, which Needham sourced from Ogyu Sorai's "Shasho Ruiji Kokujikei." This Ming dynasty big-siyah bow looks exactly like the Qing 'Southern Bow' in Ming style shown in Stephen Selby's "Bows of China" article, but without the string bridges.
:? very interesting pictures !
what does the text say about these two bow types ?
do you also think that the big bow belly is meant to perspectively show the tapering of the limb width twds grip and siyahs ?
what does the text say about these two bow types ?
do you also think that the big bow belly is meant to perspectively show the tapering of the limb width twds grip and siyahs ?
Let me ask a friend for help with translating the description of the two bows. The perspective of the drawing looks to have been rotated a bit (it doesn't look like a full side-on perspective).
The bow on the left reminds me of the Grozer Hunnish model. The long-siyah bows with straight handles have also appeared in several Song dynasty (10--13th century AD) paintings.
The bow on the left reminds me of the Grozer Hunnish model. The long-siyah bows with straight handles have also appeared in several Song dynasty (10--13th century AD) paintings.
at the end of text , the two bow one is red bow other is black bow
Justin Ma, after han dynasty the long siyah huns bows still exist in china cause the south huns peace and friends so many year till to Europe huns game over, almost same time, you can find what about the south huns in chinese history
Justin Ma, after han dynasty the long siyah huns bows still exist in china cause the south huns peace and friends so many year till to Europe huns game over, almost same time, you can find what about the south huns in chinese history
I wasn't sure whether I should spawn a new thread for the following, but I figured it would be good to keep the discussion of the Chinese finger draw in one thread.
So I stumbled across this, which is supposed to be a Chinese "ring" meant for the finger draw (in this case, a 2-finger draw). I'm unsure about the date and exact origin, but I sent an email message to the owner asking about it: http://antiferus.net/collection/chinese3.htm
Has anyone else seen a Chinese finger draw device like this before?
So I stumbled across this, which is supposed to be a Chinese "ring" meant for the finger draw (in this case, a 2-finger draw). I'm unsure about the date and exact origin, but I sent an email message to the owner asking about it: http://antiferus.net/collection/chinese3.htm
Has anyone else seen a Chinese finger draw device like this before?
The label for the bow on the left is "black bow", the label for the bow on the right is "red bow". The text from Xin Ding San Li Tu 新定三礼图 paraphrases a passage from the Rites of Zhou 周礼 --- specifically, the passage that is quoted in Selby's "Chinese Archery" paragraph 6A17.Uli wrote:
:? very interesting pictures !
what does the text say about these two bow types ?
It describes bows of three different lengths (6 chinese feet and 6 chinese inches, 6 feet and 3 inches, and 6 feet). And it describes their "circumference" or presumably some draw length descriptor, which is 9 for the emperor, 7 for higher level officials, and 5 for lower level officials.
Just going over some earlier ATARN threads showing Han dynasty (206 BC -- 220 AD) artwork that could be interpreted as archers shooting with the finger draw.
http://atarn.net/phpBB2/files/han_draw_length_121.jpg
http://atarn.net/phpBB2/files/han_archer_top_481.jpg
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/10/12 ... a_xa01.jpg
Other Han artwork also depict archers shooting with the thumb draw. But there's a tie-in with these three photos with the theory that Chu State (1030 -- 223 BC) archers shot with the finger draw. The ancestors of the Han dynasty royal family were from Chu, so people in the Western Han dynasty might have carried over some of their archery customs, particularly the black/brown silk-wrapped wooden composites and bamboo composites. If the Chu people did shoot 3-finger, then the 3-finger draw might have carried over to part of the Han dynasty.
My current estimate for when the finger draw fell entirely out of favor in China is some time between the end of Han and the beginning of the Ming dynasties (220--1368 AD).
http://atarn.net/phpBB2/files/han_draw_length_121.jpg
http://atarn.net/phpBB2/files/han_archer_top_481.jpg
http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/10/12 ... a_xa01.jpg
Other Han artwork also depict archers shooting with the thumb draw. But there's a tie-in with these three photos with the theory that Chu State (1030 -- 223 BC) archers shot with the finger draw. The ancestors of the Han dynasty royal family were from Chu, so people in the Western Han dynasty might have carried over some of their archery customs, particularly the black/brown silk-wrapped wooden composites and bamboo composites. If the Chu people did shoot 3-finger, then the 3-finger draw might have carried over to part of the Han dynasty.
My current estimate for when the finger draw fell entirely out of favor in China is some time between the end of Han and the beginning of the Ming dynasties (220--1368 AD).