Greetings from Iran

Zarasp; Warmest of welcomes to our forum. Beginning archers and horse archers are well served by light draw bows. I am sure that you will find advice here about horse archery.

Does anybody know of an English language book on the subject by which Zarasp can get started?

You might also travel to a venue in Europe or Turkey, etc.

thank you for the welcome,

i like to base our school of horseback archery to what i have seen first hand from Persian horseback hunters of east of Iran (one of the very last of them, my own grandfather),

1.according to their teachings students need very accurate bows to learn to shoot, maybe more accurate than an experienced shooter, unfortunately our current bows fail required accuracy , power , weight & length, which is our main problem, i am hoping to find shorter, heavier, more accurate bows for the school.

2.the other issue is that we cannot find 4 feather arrows, they shot ONLY with 4 feather arrows, i hope to find 4 feather arrows to buy

3.technique: my grandfather tought me 2 techniques, for back tirkash (arrow case) , and for left belt tirkash, i need to reestablish & correct these techniques with help of experienced archers here.



after these 3 steps we can hope to introduce the Persian archery (as we know it) to the world.

i hope you help us in these steps.

all the best
Zarasp.

Warmest greetings Zarasp!

It apperas that you have a lot of interesting information to share, as you had the great privilage to learn the old traditions form your grandfather.

As to the point 1. Although some bows are more accurate than others, the accuracy is as much a matter of the archer as it's of the bow and the arrow.
Maybe that deviates from the teachings you got, but I believe it will take you some time to find some bows that will match to your tradition. For the start it's good to learn with any bows you can have, by the time you have progressed with your techinque, I believe you'll find a source of some bows that suit your needs. Also by studying and practicing you will get more knowledge of what bows you really need.

As to the 4 feathered arrows I suggest you buy your arrow components instead and asemble your own arrows. It would be best to invest in a device called "fletching jig", which helps you to glue the feathers on the shaft, you can get some cheaper plastic models, that should work the same as the more expansive metal ones. Make sure you get one that has the setting for glueing 4 feathers, as some are set to glue only 3.
The traditional method would be to glue the fethears by hand, but this is best reserved for the better show-off arrows.

Wish you the very best!

thank you fro the welcome ashbow,

1.you are absolutely right about the accuracy being both of Archer & Bow, let me make clear/correct my statement,

in our Persian archery no matter how little the strength, a student bow needs to be very CONSISTENT in shooting, so the student will learn to be ACCURATE slowly.

so accuracy comes from working with a bow of good consistency.

we need to find more consistent bows for the school.

2.i think assembling arrows is a wonderful idea, THANK YOU! can it work with wooden arrows too? i hope we can find a good shaft,tip, feather combination,

after i read your post, i searched for it & found it in one shop, Korean made, i will check it with hope that it has 4 arrow setting!

All the best.
Zarasp.

Hopefully some experienced horseback archers will help you out regarding what sort of bows would suit your needs.

You should be able to get any type of arrow shafting you like, including wood and bamboo, quality wooden shafts are usually easier to get than bamboo though.

Good luck with your upcoming projects, Zarasp.

Can you provide any drawings, sketches or photographs of the kinds bows your family used? I'm very curious about the shape.

at the moment i cannot post pictures , since i currently live in Tehran, but i know the shapes well, & i have measurements of strings arrows etc.

unfortunately i have not found any similar bows in my few days on the internet, even the ones called indopersian , persian or even Sassanid & are available for sale are very different from what i know,

one of the kind members here sent me a link after we talked about these bows, this link shows a very very similar bow to some of our bows , (although it didnt mention Bone as a part of the bow) & the arrows are almost Identical to what i know to be a Persian or Iranian arrow.

there was also a picture that showed an almost identical bow,in this forum, amazingly, a bow from Vienna, in europe.

the link:
http://www.atarn.org/letters/letter_sum ... tm#ind_per

the bow from vienna.
http://atarn.net/phpBB2/files/krabbe_173.jpg

Zarasp, I think many will appreciate your contribution of the frist hand knowledge about your archery traditions. It's wonderful to have you here.

Many Eastern composite bows are stored in European museums, among the artifacts there is plenty of archery tackle present that was captured after the defeat of the Ottoman army at Vienna in the 17th century.

hi zarasp - welcome!

great to hear of your goal in archery!

looking at your suggested bows i thought of this one: http://nomadbows.com/stock/images/laminalt/P1100385.JPG coming closer to - than the indopersian or persian bow. (it's a new indian model from grozer) - i hope it is what you are looking for!

in case of accuracy you might get a success by adding metal (lead or something else heavy) below the grip covering leather. maybe such tricks can help you out. if a little diy is ok. if you like this idea, maybe this tutorial i found in a german archery-forum helps you a bit - albeit it's all-german language. (upper link - 7mb data http://rsengineering.de/How-to/how-to.html)

best wishes from germany!

At the moment, I am working with Manouchehr Khorasani on some Safavid manuals on archery. Three will be published in translation in his book on on Persian martial arts. I cannot preview this information yet because it is in a prepublication phase. However, I can make some comments from my other experience.

Four fletched arrows were know in the Middle East and India. Their advantages in close shooting and rapid shooting are easily seen. The greater drag of four feathers straightens out the arrow flight much more quickly. Much horse archery practice was done from close range. In China, the Manchus used increasingly bigger feathers over time to make sure their arrows were going straight in military tests. Another advantage of four fletches is that you do not have to worry which way up the arrow is when you nock it. This increases the speed at which you can shoot and means that nocking on horseback requires less attention. Both these features can be useful in hunting too since the range is often short and the warning that a target will appear is very brief.

Many of the old broadheads I have from Northern India have four feathers (or the traces of them. So do some of the more robust armour-piercing arrows.

I strongly encourage you to follow on with your interest. Any traditions you know of will be of great interest to researchers and other archers.

Regarding modern bows you can buy that would be suitable for practising Iranian styles of archery of the last few hundred years, I suggest something like a Crimean Tatar bow. They have a similar profile and length and a long draw length. The original bows were not made the same way, but once converted to modern materials I do not think there is much difference.

The Iranians drew until the nock was near the lobe of the ear in the Safavid and Qajar periods so a bow with a medium to long draw is needed. In earlier periods, particularly the Sasanian, the draw was longer.

Dear Zarasp

I'm very glad to hearing from another people in Iran who is interested in traditional archery.

واقعا خوشحال شدم ما با شما 3 نفر میشویم که فعلا در ایران در این حوزه فعالیت میکنند امیدوارم به زودی بتونیم کمانداری خودمان را احیا کنیم.

Ashbow wrote:

Many Eastern composite bows are stored in European museums.

OH, i re-read the topic, my 1st internet forum lesson: not to jump to conclusions, read posts. many people explained also that it was a Persian bow,

& thanx for the welcome

Amarutu wrote:

adding metal below the grip

thank you! well i think i am going to try it , our bows are too light for what i know,


Bede

you are the 1st person to say the same exact things i have heard my grandfather say about the 4 feather arrow & really it is wonderful for me,

it seems to me that you have very good knowledge , i hope to use it to revive my traditions, because Honestly if i dont do something these traditions will die.



THanks alot

Bede wrote:

The Iranians drew until the nock was near the lobe of the ear in the Safavid and Qajar periods so a bow with a medium to long draw is needed. In earlier periods, particularly the Sasanian, the draw was longer.

from what i know: in TIRBARAN & KAMAR tirkash methods, (the english translations Arrow rain & belt quiver), we draw differently, but the main principle that i was thought was: PULL UNTIL THE ARROW KISSES YOUR FINGERTIP, which means a light touch of the arrow tip on the extended forefinger holding the bow!

I will soon open up some topics on these methods, 4 feather arrows & what my friend here called Sassanian draw.

THANKS!

hscpng wrote:

....from Iran....

hey, very glad to see you here, you should really come to Noroozabad and visit us. i am there everyday.



once again thanks everyone for the warm welcomes, i am very lucky to be able to learn so easily from so far away.

Zarasp.

Zarasp,
The use of the arrow head to indicate maximum draw is in the old books. However, it is just one end of the arrow. The arrow length then determines where the nock of the arrow will be. As I wrote, in the Qajar and Safavi periods, the ear was the terminus for the hand and hence the nock of the arrow, but there were variations. Isfahanis were said to draw to the eyebrow.

Regarding the Sasanian draw, do you want me to post a picture of the kind of tab I use for that? They are easy to make and save your fingers.

Bede wrote:

Zarasp,
The use of the arrow head to indicate maximum draw is in the old books. However, it is just one end of the arrow. The arrow length then determines where the nock of the arrow will be. As I wrote, in the Qajar and Safavi periods, the ear was the terminus for the hand and hence the nock of the arrow, but there were variations. Isfahanis were said to draw to the eyebrow.

Regarding the Sasanian draw, do you want me to post a picture of the kind of tab I use for that? They are easy to make and save your fingers.

WOW so nice, its like looking at a Sassanid Plate,

can you please post some more photos of this draw,(perhaps we should open a new Topic), i would love to discuss this technique, put some ancient photos up & hopefully show the version of this draw, that my Grandfather taught me, which looks exactly the same from far....

Hi Zarasp

glad to have you among us. Ottoman and Iranian archery/horsearchery are very close together compared to other styles. You might speak of 'brother' states and brother styles with a touch of sweet competition. We read for example in our literature that it was common that a champion archer pehlivan from Iran came to Istanbul to challenge archers etc. That's how they had their international championships in the old days.

I hope you will provide us with information that will help us understand the Iranian style but also our Ottoman style better.

Manoucher and Bede are preparing smth already but in the meantime can you give us a quick overview over Iranian (historic) literature about archery and horsearchery?

btw do you train with Ahmed and Mehdi or is this a different new school?

thanks and many greetings

Gokmen

Hi Gokmen,

thanx for the welcome,
as you may know we have a long history of archery in this land, going back thousands of years, from Achaemaneid seals & coins which i am just learning about to a precious manuscript on archery from Saffavid time, , which i am trying to get my hands on,

i am not only interested in horseback archery but, Persian traditional archery, which i think is very brilliant in some aspects,

there are some things that we can offer the world today that are ukknown so far, the fast shooting or stringing a bow on a horse etc... but please beware that the things i say are NOT necessarily the "Ancient Persian Archery" techniques, they are simply what i learned being in a family of Persian hunters & horsemen.

i will share all i have with hope to correct/introduce this precious art to the world...

and YES! i practice with Mehdi & Ahmad, we just finished a 10 day national team exercise, if we can find Sponsors on time i will come to Korea with them, otherwise Ahmad will win all the Golds again, hehe....

Zarasp.

Dear Zarasp, May I add my personal welcome to ATARN. Please let me know what assistance you need to develop traditional archery in Iran. Although they are not traditional, I have good, long aluminium arrow shafts that are good for horseback archery practice. I can send you some for free. I can get strong Chinese traditional bows here made from glass fiber. Can you send me a photo of the sort of bows that you want to use?

Stephen Selby

Thank you Very much Stephen for the welcome & the help, a pm is on your way!

May I add that I respect the Persian culture and traditions above many other countries for their value of art and language. That is why I am learning Farsi to help communication there between there and the West. It is a blessing that your grandfather holds the traditions within himself. You should attempt to try transcribing his knowledge down for the future if you have not already done so! But how is it there in your efforts for archery? And I feel you should also try contacting some Turkish horse archery enthusiasts because I have heard they have a large following there and appreciate Persian archery.

Wow you are learning Persian? very cool!
let me know if i can help,

well the horse archery situation here....not so good...apart from over-priced junior bows & silly sport mafia/business...

our single biggest problem : lack of true horsemanship in the new generations of riders makes the cantering method very attractive & the only association here is supporting the Hungarian archery which in most aspects is absolutely against the traditions i know.

unfortunately i never wrote anything down that my grandfather said, i memorized them, he thought me archery & horse riding from 5 years old until i was seven years old, (and then i came to the city to go to school), i spent another 3 years with him hunting & riding and shooting the only bow he had left at the time, before he past away (about 12 years ago), he rode horses until the day he passed away at 94 years old....

i am teaching for free & i am working hard to learn & make people here better riders & archers ,but honestly, i dont think we will succeed if we dont do something that can end this cantering archery business around us, i just need to figure out what to do....

Zarasp

Zarasp; In a way you are lucky to be there at the beginning.

jack farrell wrote:

Zarasp; In a way you are lucky to be there at the beginning.

yes! it's very true,
i had some good conversations recently, i think there are things we can do!

Remember Lukas Novotny helped start the Horse Archery and interest in such fields years ago, and look how it has grown in America. So all you need is the yearning for knowledge and the passion to support it, and it shall flourish! :) Persian archery is a venerable system and if you try reading up on the horsemanship aspect or find some way of improving your knowledge there shouldn't be anything stopping you!
But remember! It only took one generation for the Indian Composite bows to become a lost art, thus you need to bridge the generation of your Grandfather and future generations by recording the knowledge you took from him. If you know Arabic or Turkish I encourage you to record it in those translations as well to encourage interest if you can! Arab Archery and Saracen Archery give much insight today on ancient arts so trascribing your grandfather's art can help as well.

Zarasp wrote:

well the horse archery situation here....not so good...apart from over-priced junior bows & silly sport mafia/business...

our single biggest problem : lack of true horsemanship in the new generations of riders makes the cantering method very attractive & the only association here is supporting the Hungarian archery which in most aspects is absolutely against the traditions i know.



Zarasp

I completely agree with you. I have bigger respect for archers using tradidional equipment and traditional style than for sport results and historical costumes.
In my view- imposition of traditional archery isn?t only to hit target, but to make a hole to it :lol: As sure as possible. Fastshooting isn?t as important as accuracy and penetration.

It is good report that somebody exist who have personaly contact with tradition, not only literary teory.
Today some of archers are using wooden arrows in traditional way (Gokmen etc.) and there are some traditional discipline- for instance quabac. But modern style is dominant.
Weak bows, carbon arrows, short distance, slow horses, mediterran release, special arrow nocks and fletching for fastshooting and fastshooting.

In Poland is tendence to rebuilt cavalry art - at least thumb release and riding art.

Hi M??a & Mongoilian archer.
i am glad to see that you are in favor of the stronger methods of horse archery, we are not that few, we just need to find each other & unite to better the sport.

i think speed is related to accuracy, the more the speed, the harder to be accurate , i suggested a scoring system for our students in Tehran & i got good results, my topic is in Horseback archery forum on ATARN.

people like Tirendaz group ,Gokmen, Neil Payne & Pan-guen Lee are the sort of people who are stopping the loss of this art, i also have a few things to offer like the 2 finger traditional draw & belt quiver methods which are Persian tradition & i hope to correct & keep them.

I remember the candle & middle-fat arrows with semi-circular nocks,
today : wooden arrows with Persian nocks? I wish,
it might be hard to believe, but the only arrows we can buy right now are carbon arrows from IR horseback archery association for 20-25$ each.

because of the price we have to repair them (& repairing=messed up flight & weight)... but everybody HAS to do it.

as for the competitions, thanx to the people i mentioned above, qabaq is international & that's a great step!

I believe that with a united & precise scoring system, the sport will move towards faster archery & faster horses, & that will put an end to the cantering system.

note: i am not against cantering for beginners, cantering archery is nice & its fun to watch but i have never seen any historical record showing a cantering horseback archer & i dont believe the scoring system should allow it to advance to international grade 1 events

i think the current Hungarian & Korean scoring systems are not precise.

Oh & finally i can show you our track!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRcz0VDcAfM


sorry couldnt embed the video

Wau ! Thats what i luke Zarasp !Full galop, not that walking horse what you can see in Magyars school. Better one good strong shot than 10 from 20 lb bow from walking like killing horse . Super!
Whi you guys buy arrows and dont make yourself - wooden arrows ?

excelent work. I like your velocity.

thanx for watching guys, i have a loooooooooooooong way to go,

i hope to get better with time & put better videos here, in the next month maybe a double shot, jarmaki & qabbaq.

this is no "trick" but an "attack"
Goooo ! :D

Thank you Uli, i tried to answer your e-mail but Gmail gives error! so i answer you here,

yes, as you can see the arrow speed is very low, & thats why i have to shoot many meters before the target.

increasing poundage does not necessarily increase arrow speed, it's the construction of the bow, some bows are "lazy", i have tried some Kassai bows with this characteristic, a Kaya bow with about half the poundage matches their speed, my bow is really a Junior bow, made for kids :oops:

My bow is silly, my technique needs improvement, my quiver is made of carpet & my arrows are broken & repaired , but i still like to "attack" the target :D

pleasure is always better than fancy equipment...

Furious! lol, we can learn something from you.Wish you to be faster and faster.Greets!

Great stuff!!! Looks like a lot of fun. Full gallop what a rush.

Thank you very much, i'm glad you like the fast shooting.

this was originally a display of "look! we have a horse archery place", not my archery, my technique needs MUCH improvement. :oops:

@ Amarutu: of course pleasure is more if your equipment is good enough for what you demand of it & doesn't take away from your performance...

@ Zoran: thanx, faster = Motorbike archery :D

@JBL: the 1st time i rode a thoroughbred at race track, i said "wow, i was not alive until now", i hope everyone enjoys this truly LIFE-GIVING experience someday,

even better, letting them loose in deserts..... mind blowing experience.

This is amazing, ...and what a horse!
You would scare the shaytan it self :lol:

Greetings

Ruben

Haha, thank you Ruben

that would be Angra Mainyu for me , not sheytan. :D

Zarasp,
Zoroastrian,huh? How are they treating such religious minorities in your country these days?(no need to answer if it's better not to.)

Boghadair.

Dear Zarasp

can i have the exact address of Noroz Abad and when you are there?

@ Boghadair : not bad but could be better, i am from a family of "Old religion" it is a nomadic belief, a bit different from modern day Zoroastrianism in a few things but about 90% the same.

@ hscpng : please check your pm :D .

just for future visitors:

تهران، جاده قديم كرج، خ خليج، مجموعه سواركاري نوروزآباد

my phone : 0919-558-0913
noroozabaad : 021-66180070

Thank you so much I will call you.

My dear friends , Here is an update & good news about our school:

1.We have 3 Hwarang bows arrived a few days ago, these make our previous bows seem like toys, next on the list: 3 Turkish bows.

2.we are making four-fletched arrows, although we still have to buy carbon shafts at 20$, it is a step forward to our tradition.

3.we now have 3 full time horses for archery, fast & medium speeds.

4.we are now 6 people who practice 3-5 times a week, all using quiver, thumb or traditional 2 finger draw & fast horses.

5.we are using a new scoring system which i mentioned in ATARN Horse archery forum.

6.we have a 7m qabaq pole, which we can install & use next month after the adjacent areas are empty & the management proves its safety.

7.our current skill level ranges from 1 to 3 shoots in 10 seconds, most of which gets scores above 2 in a 5 point target,

8.as always there is no charge for students except the horse rent, my bows, arrows, targets & horse are free to use for anyone who wishes to join us.

FUTURE PLANS: i have a ticket for next Tuesday to Istanbul, apart from the competition in BIGA ,there i hope to make some good contacts to be able to buy better arrows & possibly the Tirendaz bows,

CHALENGES: as before the IHBA (Mehdi's group) renderes our traditional methods "not-standard" & my trip to Biga "useless" & is still holding on to my passport, i have been asking for it for 2 weeks, i hope they don't stop my trip to Turkey, i am sure i can learn alot from the Turkish tradition which resembles our own in many ways.

Thanks to your guidance & support, we are on a good path to practice our traditional archery.
as always all suggestions are welcome.
Zarasp

Zarasp great news. It is wonderful to hear that your school is becoming a success story. BRAVO, my friend. What is most impressive to me is the speed at which you train.

Good luck and keep up the GREAT WORK!!

:shock: congrats and best wishes !

Thank you JBL & Uli. i have my hopes!

Jbl: something probably worth mentioning: none of us use opened "V" shaped nocks for fast nocking, our speed is average for fast shooting.

Another recent development: After Gokmen mentioned the half draw, i put a very thick material on the targets, from wool, it is impossible to penetrate it without a full draw & a #50 bow, now we are all using full draw..... *grin*

may i add "muhahahahaha.....