First, may I say that my discovery of ATARN figures as the best ilustration in years for the value of the WWW; it's a veritable mine of information. Of course, when one finds a mine of anything, one tends also to find the exploitation of the resources iresistable, so here come the inevitable questions, along with my apologies if I post in the wrong section of the forum...
I've been cooling my heels for over 10 months now, awaiting an inter-library loan article (the Seminarium Kondakovianum study of the bow found in the Yrzi necropolis) and I'm becoming a tad impatient, as currently I'm aware only of its approximate length. Is there anyone here who could characterise the nature of this weapon? By which I mean its general appearance, design/method of construction, or offer any informed speculation as to its likely peformance. You know, the basic (and therefore complex) details...
On a more general point; I appreciate that art history and archaeology provide evidence of change/evolution in bow design, but it's noticeable that academics tend to fall into line with written sources when addressing the performance of bows. Examples of this would be the frequently encountered assertion that the bow used by the Parthians was more powerful than any hitherto encountered by the Romans, or that the Hun bow outperformed any other of its time. I suppose that what I'm asking here is this: would members be willing to advance an opinion that the changing appearance of the composite bow was accompanied by a continuous improvement in its performance? Or does one see the bow reach a stable plateau of technical excellence at an early date and thereafter encounter what are essentially cosmetic changes in outward appearance?
Building upon this premise - that sources originating from various settled, literate cultures throughout history identify assaults from central Asia as being marked by outstanding excellence in archery, and often attribute this to some steppe innovation in bow design - can I ask for opinions on an alternative model? This would be one in which the 'settled cultures' sought to rationalise their military failures by attributing better hardware to their opponents, when in fact there was little qualitative difference between the archery equipment on both sides. In such a model one would see the nomadic groups as being merely better, more practised archers than their more sedentary opponents, rather than the bearers of revolutionary new weapons. I should add that I'm not predisposed to either of these interpretations, but they niggle at me, and I've become exasperated at seeing the eyes of my colleagues glaze over whenever I muse on the matter (academics speculate only on those topics which they enjoy, and my interest in archery places me in a minority of one, locally.)
Finally a little anecdote. I spent the first 5 months of this year in the vicinity of Ashkhabad, and was delighted to discover that some local Turkmen carried bows as a matter of course. I had the opportunity to ride with them on numerous occasions and to use the bow on horseback (oh, the additional thrill of riding an Akhal-tekke whenever I wished!) On one occasion, a group of 6 encountered a small flock of some 20-30 goats (or sheep; odd-looking ovicaprids of some description) and decided to obtain some dinner. The day was fairly still and a light rain was falling as we moved into a canter, then to a hand gallop in order to circle downwind of the grazing animals; I have no idea wheteher this was good parctice ot otherwise, and can observe only that something spooked the flock as we arrived slightly upslope of them and some 100 metres distant, at which point my companions responded by loosing the arrows they had already nocked during the approach; two loosed a second arrow, but most appeared confident that this was unnecessary. The result? Two dinners, one killed outright and the other despatched where it had fallen. Perhaps the most impressive aspect of the episode was the manner in which the horsemen reacted to the movement of the target; those at the front of the group loosed immediately, those behind delayed only for an instant, sending their arrows in a markedly higher arc over the heads of the leading riders. As to how they had performed: all recovered their arrows after a swift search of the area around the fallen animals; the sheep which had been killed outright had been struck by an arrow that had fallen at a steep angle and thus had been the victim of an archer who was shooting over the heads of intervening riders.
Afterward, I learnt that it had been their intention to gallop to some 30 metres before releasing, and that at this distance each individual expected to strike an animal; they were (predictably?) dismissive of their skills. Perhaps it was freakishly good result but I must admit that I felt a tiny frisson of excitement at having witnessed steppe horse-archers accomplish two kills with what appeared to be almost languid ease. The locals made no effort to undermine my admiration, then or later, and I wonder if their success is to be regarded as representative of archery standards. Anyone have any opinions on the matter?
Yours (still slightly dazed at the memory of the incident)
Vindafarna
jack farrell
Greetings Vindafarna; You will find in your study of archery, that most improvements on self bow technology can be traced, in their oldest forms to Siberia. Be assured that bowyers would not have bothered to adopt these complicated and time consuming technologies had they not offered a military advantage over their neighbors. Nor would the neighbors have not adopted these changes if they had not found themselves at a disadvantage.
In Brown's article(13pp), the Yrzi bow is shown in schematic as being of a single curve unstrung. Two spatula-shaped wood grip risers support two separate limbs. Horn belly and sinew backing, along with bone siyah stiffeners complete the Siberian-inspired design.
About the fierceness of nomad types; it is a commonly held belief that nomads are territorial. They could be difficult to find for retribution because of a lack of cities in the classic sense for which they would stay around to defend. Herodotus gives a good example, ch 4, how the Scythians were difficult for the Persians to force into a convenient battle format.
In the European scheme, a man with a good horse, first class weapons and military training had to be given a title and land to come home to or else he might overthrow the government. On the steppes, all men and most women fit into this description, except with your wealth made up of livestock, how long can you spend in one place?
The floodlight of modern attention hardly reaches into Central Asia. We do not depend directly upon them for trade. CA is like the dark side of the moon; we know that it is there but most of us do not know anyone who has been there.
Ask someone if they know where the Sea of Tranquility is. They may suceed in saying it is on the moon. Then ask them where Turkemenistan is and they probably won't have a clue. -j-
Stephen Selby
Vindefarna,
Your post is the first instance I have seen of anyone in recent years actually witnessing hunting by native central Asian archers on horseback. I hope that you can add to your account.
Can you recall the design of the arrows used: particularly the arrowheads? Did they use very broad, chisel shaped arrowheads? And were they arrows heavy?
Did you take any photographs?
Bede
The changes in composite bow design over the ages seem in hindsight to be a progression, but it is arguable whether any particular innovation had as much impact when it was first introduced as it seems to in retrospect.
I think you might have to look at changes in the assembly of equipment and the tactics used. For instance, when the Parthians first started to dominate Iran, their archery was commented on, but it did not have the impact that was ascribed to it after the defeat of Crassus at Carhhae. In that battle, historians record arrows penetrating shields and the general effectiveness of the archery. It should be noted that one of the main contributions to the victory was the camel loads of arrows that the Surena brought with him to the battle. It was always an irritation to the Romans that they were beaten by the personal retinue of a Parthian nobleman rather than the army of the Parthian state.
If fact, the Parthians had such a chaotic state that they rarely could press home their victories. The Cambridge History of Iran goes into some detail about the lack of modern knowledge of even the complete list of kings who ruled Parthia. The list is based on coins only for some periods, despite the long life of the state.
It is most likely that the bows of the victors were often the chosen weapon of the next generation. The great empires around the edges of the steppe were very good at importing and refining the weapons of the nomads. In Iran in particular there was a lot of give and take. If you read Coulston's Roman Archery, you will see the way the late Romans copied the archery equipment of the most powerful steppe tribes in order to better the Persians' effective archery on their eastern border. Whether it was Hunnic or Turkic in origin, they incorporated it into their military system. The Chinese also were very observant.
The question is whether any type of bow won a battle over another type of bow. I am sure that there are occasions of this, but in most cases luck and the organisation capitilise on it won battles. Through the eyes of history, everything seems inevitable.
The Yrzi bow is a unique survival, but it is not a Parthian bow and it is doubtful it even represents the mainstream of development in the Middle East. It did have relatively straight bone reinforced ears, but they followed the smooth reflex of the rest of the bow rather than being angled to the back as their contemporaries in art. It has a narrow, long and thick handle, prominent on the belly side with a diagonal splice, but not the sharp belly angles of the Sassanian and Hunnic bows. The core is somewhat like the Khotan bow, but not as highly developed. I am worried that some of the laminations in the archaeological drawing might be splits along the grain of the core wood caused by centuries of dessication. I have not seen clear photgraphs so I am guessing and perhaps wrong.
Hope this helps.
Russ Mitchell
(Would like to second the request on more hunt details... am sadly utterly ignorant of the bow.)
Dave
(Would like to hear more about the bows they used.)
If they were still using composite bows, then that surely means someone, at least, is still making them. I was under the impression that barely anyone in Turkey knew anything about their archery heritage anymore. I may very well be wrong though.
Dave.
Stephen Selby
If they were still using composite bows, then that surely means someone, at least, is still making them.
I used to think that; but in recent years I have found that bows remain in Central Asia / Tibet which have been extensively recycled. Although bow-makers are few, bow repairers also exist. It seems that the challenge of mending an old bow - even if you have to supply some new components or cannibalize them, is less than starting from scratch.
Andrew van Ross
vindafarna wrote:
I've been cooling my heels for over 10 months now, awaiting an inter-library loan article (the Seminarium Kondakovianum study of the bow found in the Yrzi necropolis) and I'm becoming a tad impatient, as currently I'm aware only of its approximate length.
Vindafarna
Dear Vindafarna,
Is this by chance the article you're looking for?
Brown, F.E.
"A recently discovered compound bow"
Seminarium Kondakovianum 9, 1937, pp.: 1-10
If your library fails in getting hold of it, I can send you scans from this article, if you wish.
Best regards,
Andrew van Ross
Murat ?zveri
Dave and other members,
It is (or "was") correct that the archery tradition in Turkey has broken. I have posted several messages to both atarn and to individuals how it happened, with all its political and historical aspects.
Now, we are giving a new life to our tradition. We recently founded "Ok?uluk Araştırmaları Derneği" (The Society for Archery Research) and started to wide spread the knowledge thru the country.
After having an article published in one of the most popular history magazines I am about to finish a book including all the aspects of archery (both modern and traditional). At 25th of September two lectures will be held in Istanbul. One of them is about the history, philosophy, system and related rituals in Ottoman Archery and the other will be about "how to construct the Ottoman Composite bow".
The lecturer of this second talk is Cem Donmez, one of the members, is working on traditional bowyery with the kind help of Adam Karpowicz (thanks to Adam for all his support!). I hope and believe traditional bows will be manufactured by many others in the future. We all know that it will take time but we're prepared for a long run anyway.
One of the developments we have had in a very short time is the attraction of the media. I was visited by a journalist for an interview last week, She also took part in our training with one of her colleagues to take pictures and to be informed more.
We used to have non-systematic tries to find out the old Ottoman scripts. Now we'll have a more effective attempt to have them translated to the new alphabet and language. This will bring light to many unknown details of both bowyery and shooting technique of our ancestors.
I can at least say that a part of the true inheritors of Ottoman archery are aware of their cultural value and doing something to revitalize it. This society is a step to make our dreams come true.
Best regards to all.
Murat
Russ Mitchell
Wonderful.
Dave
Murat,
Will this book be in English or Turkish? Is there a publication/release date?
Dave in oz
Murat ?zveri
The book will be in Turkish.
I was intending to finish it last month but it's delayed. Publishing will take a little time. It may be about the end of the year.
M.
Bede
Murat,
Will the book be illustrated? There are so many things that would benefit from good clear photographs and so many of us that would likewise benefit from looking at them.
Russ Mitchell
Not to mention harassing your local turkish bud for translation help.
jack farrell
Murat; We already have an excellent book on Turkish archery; Turc Okculugu. We can't read it eighter. If a book was printed with Turkish on one page and English on the other, then maybe we could learn some Turkish. -j-
Murat ?zveri
Jack,
Turk Okculuğu is the most complete book about Turkish Traditional Archery still it has some gaps to fill.
The translation of this wonderful book to English may be a project of our society, an idea that has been discussed in this forum before. But our priority is publishing turkish books and articles because the new generation has no idea about the value of our traditional archery. Meanwhile I'd be glad to help in any particular part of the book if any of you need more info.
Murat
jack farrell
Murat; Thankyou for your kind offer, and I know that you are buisy with your book and all.
But after years of owning this book, still don't know what the contents are, vii-x. Is there someone who will post them here? We can all share. -j-
Murat ?zveri
I will do it for you. Give me a few days.
Murat ?zveri
Jack,
I put the content under the General Discussion as a new topic. I hope you all will forgive me for the mistakes I might have made.
BTW, I'm fast, right? :D :D
Murat
redhawk
Is there any picture or drawing,maybe with construction details, of the Yrzi bow?