Mongol Bow Reconstruction

Uli; Standardization of military equipment is a modern concept. You can see by your bottom pic just how different Mongol era bows were to eachother.

Think of these as schools of bow making, with design changes and a time continuum. The Shiluustei sum bow is a snapshot on the timeline.

As I noted before, the Rashid ed Din bow in the top pic has the same decoration as the Shiluustei sum bow.

OK - lets call it examples of a prevalent school of bowmaking during the mongol empire... (related to mughal bows)
:wink: Uli

I agree, they seem rather similar examples of a prevalent school of bow making. Interestingly, such bows are seen in use by Song troops and also Jurchen Jin forces. It was quite a popular bow design for a long time, used over a large part of the silk road and beyond.

I've been lucky enough to shoot an excellent replica made by Yokhua, and it really shot quite well. It does stack a little at the end due to the angle of the ears, but it has the major advantage of being incredibly stable. The angle of the ears automatically pulls the arms in alignment when you pull the bow, and so the whole is far less susceptible to damage due to twist. Quite a contrast to later bows with forward pointing ears that tend to be rather sensitive. For a nomad people that were on the move all the time through various terrain and weather conditions, I can imagine it is a perfectly suited bow.

-Peter

Serindia posted pics of a Uygur bow from Xinjiang which belongs in the continuum.

Did I not post enough details to reproduce this bow?

Peter, thank you for your info. I shall have a look on Song and Jurchen sources.

Jack, yes I saw you did a great job making a lot of details on the Shiluustei bow available. Some details however were not possible to address or I missed it: width and thickness data (+with or without taper towards ears ?).
cross-section at sal (rounded horn belly or merely flat? sinew back flat or convex ?). Well, I also hope to to see this bow in Mongolia myself..

Thank you for the input !
:-) Uli

a little computer work..

Uli,
It is amazing how your graphical reconstruction approves accuracy of most illustrations in Gami at Tawarih, Shahnama and other Mongol influenced documents. There?s a number of depicted bows which show this shape of the bows and not only deep reflex at the handle portion. What is common for depicted bows is white belly which imply birch bark (my opinion) and long siyahs, less or more angled. In Rashid ad Din?s illustrations some are very close to Shiluustei sum bow whom strung position you reconstructed , maybe with less angled ears as in second bow.

Despite nomadic lifestyle as foundation, Mongol military organization was very progressive specially in comparison to the military organization of European feudal countries and was very modern for that time. I am in agreement with Jack that we cannot talk about total uniformity of archery and other military equipment as it was case in later armies of absolute monarchies established in Europe or nowadays armies, but if we pay more attention not only to archaeology but even to old illustrations we could talk about slightly uniformity of Mongolian equipement of Ghengis Khan era bearing in mind fantastic organization he established before Ottomans did later (I talk about Middle ages but not about time of Absolute monarchies established later in Europe) . So, my opinion is that bows of GK era share same characteristics with some variations.Uli, I think that you are on the right way to come to the common bow shape and characteristic used in Mongol era.

Uli; Good job. I think you have shown the bow at half draw, a bit more relaxed at brace. As I remember the cross section was lenticular, elliptical. The area above the bend was sub triangular. Maybe some small taper to the limb, as I recall.

There is some text supporting the idea that each town, if large enough to support a bow maker(s) had their own techniques of bow making. This depended on ambient weather conditions, availability of materials and tradition/training. My opinion is that bows were made in workshops as a specialized craft and not made by each man "out in the field".

Remember that a Mongol warrior was to equip himself, come ready for a march, was not paid at all, and received a share of plunder as recompense.

In antiquity, if your army went far enough, for long enough, you might expect to never see home again.

What i wanted to say in my previous post.
Illustration from Kullyat-i Hafiz Ebru, 15 century and how i think it should be at full draw.

Uli,
Sorry if i interrupt your computer reconstruction but this is how i see this bow at full draw.Pls, can you do your reconstruction on full draw?
*just note illustration above
regards,

I think the entire limb flexes from above the grip to the bend. The grip is not so built up as a later Turkish bow and there is no kasan before the bend.

Jack,
Did you think this...

Maybe a larger radius from grip to bend. Not so stressed. One recurve and ear were a little shorter, is that correct?

No Jack, it shouldn't be shorter, i think i wasn't precise.

Hi Jack + Zoran,

Thanks for sharing your ideas. I ll redo my simulation for strung (a bit less drawn) and full draw (with less turkish-like mechanics).

Jack, everyone who has made a hornbow will agree that this requires some sort of "shop" and expertise. Given this and the longevity of a hornbow this takes us to the question whether a nomad army could have had a lot of it's "own" bows or merely weapons collected by trade or raids of the settled people around - in my opinion the second seems more probable :-)

Voila.. string length constant and based on bow when not drawn
arrow is copied from the museum assembly

Would you agree ?

:?

.. compare to these :-)

no Uli. You think about short (modern ) draw. If you draw fast , the cuvature look more like this /i litlle deform your pic.

[external image]

and this is example how real this look /i thing Luka? Novotn? havnt problem vith show his and his friends pics/

[external image]

here you can see relative "short" draw


[external image]

Evan in artists pics you can see , this fast draw in fight or hunt. Artist very well know how bow curves looks in full action...

your're right - when drawn further this bow will look like this

however: I kept the arrow and string in exact scale when drawing this simulation

maybe the arrows do NOT belong to this bow BUT:
the museum description is: length of bow 112cm, length of arrow case 90cm, width 14,8cm

so these arrows ARE very long as you can see in the photo.

maybe a fault in my simulation is the lack of grip reflex at full draw
- if you keep it then the bow will have the more extreme outline you suggest

some interesting point:

I entered a scale in the picture, the derived measurements and those given by Jack versus the museum text are nearly identical.

if you have closer look you will come to : 140cm ntn with 3cm sal thickness at the point of string follow.

has anyone made a bow like this ?? those bows must be VERY strong

Uli,
Very smart. Picture is more clear and it is enjoyable to observe it. I am not sure now is it possible to make reconstruction without splices similar as in later Mughal bows. Pls, keep on working.

The upper bow has v-spliced recurves but the ridged area is above the bend, as you say Zoran, like Mughal. Uli, adding the scale is nice. -j-

For whatever reason I amnot getting the pics from Uli or Jack, but the others show up well.

I am sure that Lukas doesnt mind showing his product, beautiful bows.

Same for me, cant see Ulis pics. Or links?
Can only see Zorans and Dusans.

It is old topic where Uli asked some questions. I almost forgot this discussion. In my last article published in JSAA vol. 56 I've tried to do graphical reconstructions of bows in Serbian mural painting together with Bane Pribak. I was astonished after we finished reconstruction of St.Procopius's bow from Gračanica monastery. Bow has pure Mongol type design and it led me to conclusion that bow of Mongol/Tatar mercenary in the service of Serbian King Stefan Uro? II Milutin (1282-1321) was painted. Same bow was painted in St.Nikita monastery near Skopje, Macedonia, also during the time of King Milutin and right in the time where first reports about Mongol and Oriental mercenaries in Serbian army appear. Here are the pictures.
Best regards,
Zoran

Dusan, have you seen Jason Wayne Beever's ''Modern Reproduction of a Mongol Era Bow''?

I think everyone here saw Jason's Mongol over on the ATARN Facebook page.

Yeah, I guess they would've :lol: ,but I'm not on Facebook , so I saw it on Exarc.net.