Gao Ying's bow hand grip
So I've translated a passage from Gao Ying (Ming Dynasty, 1637 AD) who talks about the bow hand grip:
http://www.cinnabarbow.org/GaoYingBowHandGrip.html
I'm having trouble determining whether Gao Ying's Big Eagle Claw grip is more similar to the Straight Grip or the Oblique Grip (terminology from Saracen Archery). He says the "root of the palm" (掌根) should be on the grip solidly. If you interpet the "root" to mean the groove between the thenar and hypothenar eminences, Gao Ying seems to advocate a Straight Grip --- the only problem is that he says the web of the hand shouldn't be facing upward (虎口不仰). If you interpret the "root" to mean just the hypothenar eminence, then perhaps Gao Ying advocates an Oblique Grip.
At the moment, I'm 70% leaning towards the interpretation that Gao Ying advocates an Oblique Grip. Here's why: (1) some of the illustrations in Gao Ying's book show the archer with the groove between the eminences exposed (in a Straight Grip, then groove would not be so exposed), and (2) he describes a Small Eagle Claw grip (which he does not advocate), that involves gripping with the middle, ring and little fingers but having the index finger retracted --- this grip is similar to the Intermediate Grip
http://www.cinnabarbow.org/GaoYingBowHandGrip.html
I'm having trouble determining whether Gao Ying's Big Eagle Claw grip is more similar to the Straight Grip or the Oblique Grip (terminology from Saracen Archery). He says the "root of the palm" (掌根) should be on the grip solidly. If you interpet the "root" to mean the groove between the thenar and hypothenar eminences, Gao Ying seems to advocate a Straight Grip --- the only problem is that he says the web of the hand shouldn't be facing upward (虎口不仰). If you interpret the "root" to mean just the hypothenar eminence, then perhaps Gao Ying advocates an Oblique Grip.
At the moment, I'm 70% leaning towards the interpretation that Gao Ying advocates an Oblique Grip. Here's why: (1) some of the illustrations in Gao Ying's book show the archer with the groove between the eminences exposed (in a Straight Grip, then groove would not be so exposed), and (2) he describes a Small Eagle Claw grip (which he does not advocate), that involves gripping with the middle, ring and little fingers but having the index finger retracted --- this grip is similar to the Intermediate Grip
There are earlier text than Gao in both Arabic and Persian referring to the hawk's claw grip, changal-i baz. this might be the one he means. In this grasp the wrist is turned so far forward that the meta-carpal at the base if the thumb is in a straight line with the proximal and distal phalanges. The index finger is retracted so that it is behind the back of the grip.
For the Arabic/Persian Hawk's Claw Grip (whether or not the index finger is retracted), is the archer pushing the belly of the grip with the web of the hand or the base of the thumb's knuckle bone?Bede wrote:
There are earlier text than Gao in both Arabic and Persian referring to the hawk's claw grip, changal-i baz. this might be the one he means. In this grasp the wrist is turned so far forward that the meta-carpal at the base if the thumb is in a straight line with the proximal and distal phalanges. The index finger is retracted so that it is behind the back of the grip.
A kyudo practitioner told me pushing with the knuckle bone is the way the Japanese do it. Pushing with the web of the hand while the wrist it tilted forward seems less painful (though it might put the knuckle bone in the way of the fletching).
I'm beginning to buy into the hypothesis that Gao's favorite grip is closer to the Intermediate grip, mainly because the illustrations depict the thumb's metacarpal above a horizontal angle. Moreover, the Oblique/Falcon's Talon, from Saracen Archery's description, seems like a grip that is a little more specialized for flight shooting (and from the illustration, it looks quite a bit more dangerous without careful setup). Since Gao's intention is to write a martial archery guide, my guess is he would prefer the more stable Intermediate grip.
Justin,
Judging from the Persian references, the hawk's claw grasp was in general use. I sometimes use it shooting target style and it gives a very regular shot. Following the quotations of Kani, I use the web of flesh between the base of the index finger and the thumb. I use "Z" points which allow me to feel the side of the arrowhead when it comes up to my thumb and release when the arrowhead is between the proximal and distal joints.
Saracen Archery rightly points out the uses of this in flight archery, but you do not have to use it to overdraw.
I was experimenting with a novelty whistling arrow on the weekend and managed to tense my bow-hand thumb while attempting to hold up its weight. This caused a diagonal cut across the proximal segment of the thumb. However, I could use two other methods of holding the bow which meant that the arrows never touched that area plus I remembered to relax the thumb as well.
Another archer took a video of me using a variant of the square grasp.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PZwKZQyNQE
Incidentally, the hawk's claw grasp is even more conducive for the khaṭrah than the grasp I was using.
Despite the great abilities of the Chinese artists of the time, I would hesitate to use information derived from a wood block printed image for such a small thing as the position of the hand on a bow without a lot of research into the history of the image itself.
Judging from the Persian references, the hawk's claw grasp was in general use. I sometimes use it shooting target style and it gives a very regular shot. Following the quotations of Kani, I use the web of flesh between the base of the index finger and the thumb. I use "Z" points which allow me to feel the side of the arrowhead when it comes up to my thumb and release when the arrowhead is between the proximal and distal joints.
Saracen Archery rightly points out the uses of this in flight archery, but you do not have to use it to overdraw.
I was experimenting with a novelty whistling arrow on the weekend and managed to tense my bow-hand thumb while attempting to hold up its weight. This caused a diagonal cut across the proximal segment of the thumb. However, I could use two other methods of holding the bow which meant that the arrows never touched that area plus I remembered to relax the thumb as well.
Another archer took a video of me using a variant of the square grasp.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PZwKZQyNQE
Incidentally, the hawk's claw grasp is even more conducive for the khaṭrah than the grasp I was using.
Despite the great abilities of the Chinese artists of the time, I would hesitate to use information derived from a wood block printed image for such a small thing as the position of the hand on a bow without a lot of research into the history of the image itself.
These past several weeks, I gave the Eagle Claw (wrist-forward grasp as you described) several more tries, and now it is my preferred grasp. In my particular variation, I tilt the wrist forward so that the metacarpal at the base of the thumb is horizontal, but the proximal and distal joints of my thumb are angled downward slightly. I push the handle with the web of my hand and pull the handle with my ring/pinky fingers. The arrow rests between the handle and the knuckle at the base of my thumb.
Performance-wise, when I use the Eagle Claw the arrow oscillates less when it leaves the bow (presumably because the only part of my hand the arrow touches is the knuckle). And in chronograph testing, the Eagle Claw was about 3--5 fps faster than the Full Grasp (with the wrist tilted backward).
Coincidentally, in a later of part of Gao Ying's manual, he cautions against using the Eagle Claw on heavy bows (~100#) because the arrow will go too fast.
Performance-wise, when I use the Eagle Claw the arrow oscillates less when it leaves the bow (presumably because the only part of my hand the arrow touches is the knuckle). And in chronograph testing, the Eagle Claw was about 3--5 fps faster than the Full Grasp (with the wrist tilted backward).
Coincidentally, in a later of part of Gao Ying's manual, he cautions against using the Eagle Claw on heavy bows (~100#) because the arrow will go too fast.
Justin,
Your experience is very similar to mine. I have a slight variation on Gao Ying's advice. The hawk's claw grasp is very hard to do on a really heavy bow without a lot of practice and it does give extremely fast arrows. In flight shooting this is a good thing.
Your experience is very similar to mine. I have a slight variation on Gao Ying's advice. The hawk's claw grasp is very hard to do on a really heavy bow without a lot of practice and it does give extremely fast arrows. In flight shooting this is a good thing.
A wonderful topic.....I often wonder about this and have experimented with all kinds of grips. But perhaps not "proper" grip.
Do either of you gentleman have some up close photos or illustrations that would demonstrate the eagle grasp?
thank you,
Joseph
Do either of you gentleman have some up close photos or illustrations that would demonstrate the eagle grasp?
thank you,
Joseph