Rough plan for splicing the ears in Serbian bows

I personally think, the first possibility is most plausible, but I would not say that the other possibilities aren't plausible, also the hungarian method, because we should also think of that, that the artists weren't for sure experts on weapons, so that they could have made some "mistakes".

I personally say: Look at the Ottoman Bows, and you will also see how a Bow from the Balkan Peninsula in the 14th century was made, despite the different shape (and if I take a look at the most frescoes, I see quite many bows of the "Crimean Tatar" and "Turkish" Type, specially the "Crimean Tatar" dominating). Fact is, that the Ottoman Influence in the Balkan Peninsula was enormous, maybe allready at the Time of Sultan Orhan Gazi.

Zoran; please post a pic of the specific mural again, Note date of original. Show plan for entire bow.

http://atarn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t ... torder=asc

Date is around the mid 14th Century (I think 1340s)

(Sorry for my quickness :) )

This is a nice drawing. Did Zoran make it? The tips in this drawing have modern recurve type tips. Is there a closeup of the original tips from the mural?

Its made by Zoran. You can see in his thread how he made this picture.
[external image]
This is the frescoe

http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/liblion/album/74296/
Here more pictures from the Monastery

#Kalojan (Sergej?),
I do not think that there's a reason to exaggerate influence of Ottoman Turks during the rule of sultan Orchan Gazi. It is a fact that Sultan Orhan participated civil war between two pretenders on Byzantine thron but it still didn't mean that Balkan countries were under enormous Ottoman influences before conquest of Galipoli and moving the capital in Adrianopolis (Edirne, Jedrene) in 1369 entering Europe. Serbs,Bulgarians and Greeks were defeated by Ottomans few times e.g. Battle at Stephaniana (1344) and Dimotika later but it was only episode bearing in mind that these Ottoman troops mostly weren't regular troops but mercenaries involved in civil war in Byzantium.

Real influence started in the first decades of XV century (when Serbian Despotate and most of other Balkan countries were already vassals of Ottoman Empire) and it if we are talking about Turkish bows influence only one of them appears in Serbian mural painting at this time, though influence is visible in sketches of Italian painter Pisanelo during visit of Byzantine emperor John VIII Paleolog.Also, frescoes in Kremikovski monastery in Bulgaria and Poganovo in Serbia content frescoes with ''turkish like'' bow type.

In English language there's clear distinction between words Tukic and Turkish which is not case in our languages, Serbian and Bulgarian. So, depicted Serbian bows were of Cuman and Tatar influences at the end of XIII centure and with beginning of XIV century owing to Cuman and Tatar mercenaries.Short bow form you can find in Hungarian Chronnica Picta and it was for sure of Cuman and Tatar origins since both of them had big influence not only in the armies of Balkans.Entire equipment is most of nomadic fashion specially including closed quivers often with the lid though Serbian and even possibly Saxonian craftsmen gave them their stylizations and sign.Also, there's early Byzantine reliefs with representation of short form bows. If you take a look at Wu bei zhi you can see Ming bows with shorter form and ears shaped similar as in Serbian bows.
Yes, reconstruction of st.Mercurios's bow you've inserted is made by me but as it always happens in the researchs first version can be replaced by second one. I wasn't exact and precise about this reconstruction since bow is longer and this is only bow with, as you mentioned, ''Crimean tatar'' feature. Crimean Tatar bow is invention of later times and i am sure it is improved older Turkic/Tatar bow type. I will insert second version but it is not still exact because ears should be more angled.

#Jack;

Kalojan already inserted mural. I will insert another one.If you do observe it closer you'll notice that tips are not of modern recurve type. I've chosen these two ones because they are easier to me to replicate.About entire bow plan i will insert it soon since my scanner is out of function at the moment. Did you mean to insert plan with all measurements?
Frescoe i inserted is St.Procopius from Lesnovo.
Greetings

The Ottoman Influence was, mentioning to many authors like for example David Nicolle and Ian Heath, even for the periods earlier:

David Nicolle "Arms and Armor of the Crusading Era Vol.2"
Wallpaintings, Byzantine-Macedonian, c. 1295 (in situ Church of St. Kliment, Ohrid, Macedonia
....These wall paintings in Ohrid include a number of interesting new features, the most striking of which is the curved saber of St. Mercurios, Its appearance here, more than a half century before the Ottoman Turks crossed into Europe, indicates that Byzantium, and probably other Balkan areas, were already under strong Turkish influence. This would have stemmed at least as much from steppe peoples north of the Black Sea - some of whom fought for Byzantium as mercaneries - as from the Islamic Turkish regions in Anatolia.....

This means that the Painting by Pisanello (btw. He is depicting the Fall of Empire of Trebizond 1465, meaning that it is in Fact a Post-Byzantine depiction) and the Frescoes of the Kremikovtsi Monastery (which were made in 1493, more than 100 years after the Fall of the Bulgarian Empire). Just look at the appearence of Sabers, and Balta-like Axes. And also began in this times the movement for lighter armored forces (as we can see in Bulgaria and Byzantlum very good). But also look at the Manuscripts, specially Manasses Chronicle, Serbian Psalter, and also the Alexander Romance from the 1350s, in which the Byzantine Soldiers wear TURKISH trousers, (poturi or shalvari).

PS: Yes, its me (but its my old nickname, I don't use for nearly 2 Years)

edited->

Yes Uli,
I did mean this bow. But did they exposed detached siyah then?

Zoran, I insert the pics you refer to:

the Arcat Del bow (see former post) from the work of Ulambayar Erdenebat.
the detail pic of the broken-off siyah has the groove you mention.

there are no siyah bone plates but a bone plate supporting the back of grip

total length estimated 135-140cm, C14 date 11th century
length of quiver 90cm

Thanx Uli,
Previous bow was similar to Arcat Del. Also, don't you think that what we consider as siyah is stiffener indeed (look that sharp angle if it is not cut).There's no bone plate but seems to be antler(?).This grooving can approve us something
Greets,
Zoran

I am not sure if this is wood or antler. interpretation of the item as part of the siyah stiffening construction seems a good explanation to me.

plus it seems to be made of two pieces, note the side-to-side splice (!)

from the museum info I am inclined to believe that this is the Arcat Del bow after some restauration, seen in Bonn several years ago..

Zoran; I agree with you in picking out one or two bows as representative of the type you wish to reproduce rather than trying to incorporate traits from all examples. Military weapons were not standardized at the time.

I will give one caveat and that is that the accuracy at guessing the construction of a bow type without any artifacts would be very poor indeed.

However, I must agree with Kalojan that the construction most likely incorporates Turkic construction at the late date of the mural, 1300s. The V- spliced ears leave a stronger bend than the layering in a Hunnic type bow and V-groove, Turkic type construction becomes ubiquitious (but not universal) by this period. The older Hunnic type construction has wrappings at the recurves and above the grip if the bow is not entirely wrapped. What looked like a modern flat recurve is probably a long loop on the bow string.

The Arcat Del bow tip appears to have the older type small loop as the ghost of the string is easy to see on the fragment.

If I was building this bow I would construct it in the manner of a Korean bow; two limbs in one piece bent in the middle with a strong riser glued on, V-spliced on ears which were pre bent, maybe an extra piece to fill in the tall end nock piece.

This is merely an educated guess, or maybe not educated.

If I was building this bow I would construct it in the manner of a Korean bow; two limbs in one piece bent in the middle with a strong riser glued on, V-spliced on ears which were pre bent, maybe an extra piece to fill in the tall end nock piece

This is exactly how I would made my bow.

Jack,
Your suggestion looks very logical. Bencsik Peter from Botonbow is best exemple and construction that he explained is great proof about making stronger bend.Also, this construction allows tapering along the line of V splice till the tips which can approve why Serbian bows have more tapered limbs (maybe V splice is deeper).This construction also allows lack the long ridge as it is not case in later Ottoman bow improvment.

I agree with you about preshaping the limbs with riser glued onto the core,this is my idea from the beginning.Uli already approved it though it couldn't be possible with thickness over 1cm (if i am right, Uli pls correct me if i am wrong:),do mean Korean manner of preshaped limbs since they use bamboo unlike area where bows i need to reconstruct allow only maple,ash, mulberry etc. as a core.

*When i replicated to Kalojan about Ottoman influences i didn't mean construction of the bow but design at the first place, maybe i understood him wrong.

Though, composite bows of short form appear on several Byzantine engravings from 10th century(e.g.St.Demetrios), short form, short ears same as in Serbian bows. So, this sort of construction shouldn't be only invention in Ottoman empire, and design shouldn't be of Kipchac/Tatar influence despite quivers as typical nomadic armament and fashion.
Anyway, thank you very much, you enlightened my thoughts;-)...guess is more than educated. So, i will try several options.
#Ginni, i would be glad to see some of your Romanian bows reconstructions.
Best regards,
Zoran

#Ginni, i would be glad to see some of your Romanian bows reconstructions.

Me either Zoran. :))

Good luck with your project!

Zoran Pavlovic wrote:

Though, composite bows of short form appear on several Byzantine engravings from 10th century(e.g.St.Demetrios), short form, short ears same as in Serbian bows.

Not so true. early byzantine Art was still influenced by the Roman Art, and bows allways looked like Scythian Bows. I don't even see ears on the Bow of for example St. Demetrios, it looks much to scythian to me...

Kalojan wrote:
Not so true. early byzantine Art was still influenced by the Roman Art, and bows allways looked like Scythian Bows. I don't even see ears on the Bow of for example St. Demetrios, it looks much to scythian to me...

Kalojan,I tnink it is clear here.Byzantine Icon of St.Demetrios, 10th century.There's no any doubt is this scythian type that appears in Greek,Etruscan or Scythian art or type we discuss here.
Поздрав,

Zoran,

I think these bows are very typical examples of a type very common in wide parts of Eurasia before and around the time of the mongol invasions.

Some time ago there was a discussion here on Atarn on these "Crab-leg-bows". There are examples of depictions in art from China, Byzance and even early medieval Spain. They belong to the non-contact siyah type group with bone stiffeners (Hunnic type bows).
They have not much in common with Scythian bows...

JJ

JJ wrote:

They have not much in common with Scythian bows...

JJ

JJ,

If you've read carefully this is what i wanted to show and say in my replica to Kalojan :)

Best regards,
Zoran

Crab Bow? For sure not! Where do you see on this depictions any siyas? Crab-Leg-Bows had Siyas, which were quite long.

This bow hasn't any siyas! It is a typical kind of bow depicted in traditional art of early byzantine era, which is still under strong ancient roman influence. The Kind of showing more of the "real life" came later, in the Second Half of the 13th Century (great example is there the Church of Boyana in Sofia).


Not so much difference there, isn't it?

In the 10th Century btw. was the Byzantine Empire in Contact with the Magyars, so it seems normal to me that they copied the Magyar Bows, like they copied before the Avar Bows (there are some findings of Sivas of such bows on ex-byzantine Territory).