Mediterranean Draw v. Thumb Draw Discussion

传统射法与地中海射法

今年由中心主办的三场传统弓射箭比赛己完成，总的情况是好的，达到了恢复和传承传统射箭的目的，但仍有些不足，出现了一些不和谐的现象，主要还是反映在规则上太粗，今后这样的比赛规则要细化，要按中国射箭协会公布的规则，规范这类比赛，否则，会影响这类比赛的可持续发展和比赛质量。现正在和中心射箭部董主任联系，在他们整理的，今年国际箭联公布规则的基础上，结合我国传统射箭的技术特点和弓箭器材特点，结合各地区、各民族的比赛实际，搞一个比较细的中国传统射箭的规则，供大家在今后的传统弓射箭比赛参考使用。
就目前情况来看，有一个问题值得商量，现在咱们提倡的是中国传统射箭，在弓箭器材上己有明确规定，大家己接受。还有一个问题概念不清，从技术层面上讲，什么是中国的传统射法，按中国传统射法钩弦手钩弦应是?后拳凤眼最宜丰?（摘自《武经》），钩弦手应用大拇指钩弦，咱们邻居韩国、日本和蒙古等传统射手都采用这种技术。这就是咱们常说的传统射法或蒙古射法。(请参阅附图)
据蒙古族射箭专家考证，蒙古族传统射法就是用拇指拉弦的，在蒙古族历史书上经常出现的《额日嘿莫日跟》，其意思是：《额日嘿》指的是拇指，《莫日跟》是射箭特别准的意思，合起来就是用拇指拉弓射箭的神箭手、射箭高手的意思，（蒙古族历史记载：蒙古族男孩三、四岁便开始学习射技，第一次学射时，举行一种仪式，家长给小孩的拇指上涂抹黄油，说一些祝愿词，长大当神箭手）传统射箭比赛规则规定拇指射箭是应该的。
在目前的传统弓比赛场上还有一种射法，就是大家常讲的?地中海射法?，即用三指钩弦的现代射法，这种射法是50多年前从国外传入中国的。
这两年举办的传统弓射箭比赛场上，同时存在这两种射法是不正常的，这违背了体育比赛公平竞争的原则，也有违我们恢复和传承中国传统射箭的初衷，地中海射法比传统射法精确度高，坚持传统射法的射手意见很大，认为这样比赛不合理，不是正统的中国传统弓射箭比赛。另外，通过这两年比赛中暴露的问题看，地中海射法还容易出现一些违规的现象，，如传统比赛弓上不准有任何有助于瞄准的标记，他们可借助技术上的优势做些不易被发现的有助于瞄准的标记，做一个不易被发现的小物件代替箭台等，这有违体育道德。这种做法不能提倡，应当在传统弓比赛中禁止。
五十多年前我们刚学射箭时，学的是中国传统射法，当时外国射箭技术传入中国后，学习了现代射法即地中海射法，发现这种射法比传统射法准，从此就把传统射法丢掉了，这一丢就是半个多世纪。现在有些射手用现代射法射传统弓，和我们当年走的是同一条路，如果现在不采取坚决措施，用中国传统射法射箭的人会越来越少。大家为之奋斗的恢复和传承中国传统射法的努力又将破灭。
在我们国家广泛开展的现代射箭运动，从技术上讲就是?地中海射法?，作为一个射箭爱好者可根据自己兴趣自由选择，但作为传统射箭比赛应明确规定用中国传统射法拉弓射箭，即用拇指拉弓，在拉弓时可以使用板指、手套、护手皮片或胶布带护指拉弦，用于拉弓和撒放，前提是其不能具有辅助拉弓和撒放的作用。这样的规定有助于中国传统射艺的恢复和传承。
用传统弓射箭对于从事射箭运动的初学者来说，是一个好的开始。无需任何指导，多数的初学者拉弓并沿着箭的方向瞄准，这在初学阶段是可以接受的。练了一段时间后，他们会注意到，尤其是对不同射程的靶发射时，不只是拉弓、瞄准和撒放，还有更多的技术和要求， 传统弓运动员练到有一个好的弓感以后，他会发现练的不仅是体力，它更是一种身心的训练。因为传统弓的射箭训练它注重的是射一支箭的过程，注重的是?内外兼修?，?志正体直?，这是一种文化传承，。
从上可以看出，一个好的反曲弓或复合弓选手，不一定是一位好的传统弓射手，但是，一个好的传统弓射手，一定可以成为一个好的反曲弓或复合弓射手。
[Images omitted].

Stephen,
I witnessed the dispute between the Inner Mongolians and the other participants. There can be no doubt that the Inner Mongolians were using markers on the belly side of their bows to improve their aim at 60m (as well as kissing buttons and arrows with plastic nocks, all beyond what was allowed by the rules). After they were ordered by the referees to tape the markings over, I saw one of them re-drawing the marking with a pencil on the tape. In a later competition, their arrows kept flying over the target and they lost against a Chinese team. Only then did they start complaining that the distance to the target was wrong. Indeed: One of the Hungarians measured the distance with a laser range finder and the distance was 58,5m, sufficient to explain the high shots of the Inner Mongolians. They had most likely all restored their 60m-markings.
But if I understand your question correctly, you would like to discuss whether markings on a bow are more beneficial/efficient if one uses mediterranean or thumb ring technique? In this case, I believe markings will work fine with both techniques. Using thumb ring technique, I aim for the target between two depictions of the bow, created by stereoscopic vision. A marking would just help me to elevate the bow correctly for the specific distance.
Cheers,
Jarek

I d agree that arrow on the left side and short draw with arrow closer to the eye facilitates aiming compared to - long draw at a greater distance from the eye and arrow point disappearing from view at full draw (non-stereo-view thumb draw, Taybugha's favourite if I remember well).
The case is exemplified by contemporary mongolian archery. For target archery most adopted the arrow on the left side.

Thumb draw was probably not invented for distance target shooting but close range horseback archery.

Arry wrote:

Stephen,
But if I understand your question correctly, you would like to discuss whether markings on a bow are more beneficial/efficient if one uses mediterranean or thumb ring technique? I
Cheers,
Jarek

Thanks. Specifically, the question is whether the mediterranean draw is inherently more accurate that the thumb draw, if the experience of the archers and other things are the same. This is what some archers believe.

One correspondent within China has spoken out for a rule requiring only the thumb draw to be allowed, as he believes that that is the only way to preserve the Chinese shooting tradition.

I've shot mediterranean and am a beginner in thumb-shooting. In the early beginning of my thumbring shooting, I did everything in shooting the same way, as I did with an olympic recurve bow, or a traditional western bow. I would say, there is no difference in accuracy between thumb or mediterranean grip.

After translating the Chinese text, I had to laugh a lot. Not only because of the funny machine-translation, but it reminds me so much to discussions here in Germany! If you want to shoot in national competitions with a solid thumbring, you have to start within the compound-class (with wheels and automatic fallaway arrowrests...). People here believe, there is an advantage in precision to leather protection and mediterranean or 3-under draw! Isn't that funny? In the east, mediterranean is the invading technique with an unfair advantage, and in the west, its thumb draw, to be an invasive unfair advantage. :lol:

What really came to China 50 years ago is olympic archery. It is designed for hitting coin sized targets on 90m, if the distance is known. If it comes to precision on known distances, techniques linke olympic technique have an advantage, because Chinese archery technique was designed for warfare. Warfare has more challenges than precision on known distances only. Just forbidding olympic elements can preserve Chinese archery heritage.

I think, it would be smarter to make some changes on the tournament. Maybe like putting the target on a distance between 55 and 65m, instead of always 60,0000m exactly. You can change this distance between every round of the tournament. Another possibility is to change the size of the target in every round, too! (within a given range, maybe within differences of old measurements)
This can annoy meassuring and distance-estimation techniques. The goal of this would be to minimize the advantages of markings. If you use them wrong, they do not help, and you can not prepare a mark on the bow for an unknown distance. I think this would help Chinese archery to use more of its advantages. This way it is less useful, to use other techniques and prevents cheating, by making it less rewarding.

Thank you for sharing this discussion with us!

The problem with a rule requiring Chinese domestic competitions to only allow the thumb draw is that there are traditional release techniques used by ethnic minorities in China that are not the thumb draw. Prime example: the Yi people from Liangshan, Sichuan use a "reverse Mongolian release" there they hook the string with their index finger and cover the index using their thumb. It's certainly a traditional method that isn't a Mediterranean draw. Wouldn't they want to preserve that, too?

Imo, it just comes down to a difference in how much people practice and how people practice. The Liangshan folks do really well in Chinese domestic competitions, but that's mainly due to the fact they practice an insane amount (not because they practice something other than the thumb draw).

i am never aiming ,so no knowledge about aiming,i only depend my feel of beeline ,eye only look the target, bow string and arrow is 10-15cm to my face, my hand and finger can point to target by instinctive more shoots

can we use some opaque and smooth material very easy glued on bow belly side before compete and remove it later, or make differ compete team of thumb draw, i am use middle finger and thumb draw the bow not need any rings and hide protect :? if my bow is 80 pound, i need a middle finger ring

five years ago, i can at 50-60 M shoot all 10 arrows on target inside 10CM, 100M in 50CM, each distance of 10M of inside 100M, shoot 3000-5000 arrows enough ,but when use other bow and arrow need long time practiced, one day i can shoot 500-1000 no problem , maybe the bow of lucas and blackwidoow can use for more years if one day at least shoot 300 arrows, i need buy two new bow of one year(ofcause the bowyer has one year , i end that expensive game,one year shoot 1000 arrows is very cheap,every bow is good and wear well bow
did you feeling equity some archery near professional archery join the compete,or some archery has a good traditional archery teacher ,where has pure justice? hierachical of level 1-9？

The advantage of three fingers draw is not from the draw itself. But the are many tricks (gap shooting, face walk, string walk). One may use them in combination, shoot with pure sight aiming without any mark on the belly.
In contradiction, most people who do thumb draw rely on instictive aiming and delevop less tools/tricks for sight aiming.
However, there should be a room for those who draw with three fingers and aim institively/traditionaly. It 's also a big issue in my country.

Maybe it just boils down to longer bows (which can be shot with mediterranean technique), being more tolerant of release/technique mistakes than short bows (which can only be shot with thumb release).
Best,
Arry

This is a wonderful discussion, and one that I have thought about many times.

I continue to shoot both thumb ring and mediteranean draw. I hunt and enjoy both styles, although if I had to stick to one it would be the thumb draw.

Here is my two cents.......

1. A med draw allows for a solid anchor....(I know, the turks do also but we are talking chinese and mongols).........and the more fixed, solid, repetitive the approach to the target will be more accurate.

2. I have never sighted down an arrow to aim at a target. That being said, I do believe that a certain triangulation occurs in the mind when you have the arrow in front of you like that. Many times I have loosed an arrow, not because I have become so focused on my point of aim, but because the arrow "fell into place" in my view. Hopefully I'm communicating that well.

So, when you place the arrow on the opposite side of the bow, you are now shooting more instinctively, which is not always the best when shooting bulls eyes. But will always be better in war and hunting. No time to think!

Because of this, if you have two archers at the same distance and one is shooting thumb, and the other is med draw and both place their arrows in the bullseye.............the thumb draw archer is the better and more proficient archer............and probably more disciplined.

:) well expressed - I share your opinion.

My comment and the comment of Luo Jiancu (Tibetan archer from Ledu)

各位朋友，

罗尖措的意见， 我十分赞同。到底在决定要保持和普及汉族、藏族、蒙族传统大拇指撒放法的时候，我们还需要照顾到未来国际邀请赛的具体安排。

如果立新规定，要求参赛选手用汉／藏／孟传统大拇指撒放法的话，则对于外国选手采用他们的传统地中海撒放法来说， 要：

1. 不让他们参赛？ 或
2. 国内的与国内的，国外的与国外的分别比赛？或
3. 保留现行制度？

我个人认为，如果规定外国选手限于自己《地中海撒放法组别》比赛，则恐怕他们不会象以往那么热情地来参加。

罗尖措先生也题了很重要的问题：要确认是不是有中国的一些少数民族，本族的传统撒放法并不是大拇指法。希望这问题能查清楚。 谢谢。

谢肃方


>徐教授好：
>
>传承和普及传统射法的建议，对于传统
>射箭爱好者来说非常及时且刻不容缓。
>在河湟地区广大农村仍然保留着传统的
>拇指拉弦法，但相当一部分年青队员已
>逐步以三指拉弦法所取代，若不采取一
>定的措施加以纠正，传统的拇指拉弦法
>以及相应的一些传统的优秀射箭技艺会
>丢弃。因此我认为，传统射箭活动就用
>传统的射箭器械和传统射法来体现，尽
>可能传承和普及传统的射箭技艺。但全
>国各地就具体的传统技艺还有一定的差
>异，这方面还需要在适当保留突出的地
>方特色基础上，广泛征求意见，制定出
>各地能广泛接受的规则为好，特别是拇
>指拉弦法的要求明确列入民族民间传统
>射法规则。
>
>
>
>
>
> 罗尖措

The substance of my comment:

I suport the idea of competition rules which promote retention of the thumb draw among those for whom it is a tradition. However, I think that future competitions (particularly international ones) will not be attractive to Mediterranean draw archers if they are banned from competing directly with Asian thumb draw archers. Many Western trad. archers will simply not come to the competitions.

Judging from the many recent innovations I saw in thumb ring design I saw at Ledu in July, I feel the traditional aspect maybe a moot point. I have shot with thumb rings for over 35 years now and to be honest I do not think that one system is more accurate than the other. What I do believe is that changing from one style to another results in inconsistency and inaccuracy if the side of the bow is changed too. I recently discovered that I could shoot accurately with three fingers if I only kept the arrow on the right of the bow as I was used to with the thumb draw.

Another consideration is the length of draw. I believe from my experience that shooting with a thumb draw when the hand is only brought as far as the ear is inherently as accurate as shooting with three fingers. Once the draw passes the head so that the drawing hand is above the right shoulder, I think that the thumb draw has an advantage in the smoothness of release.

In this, I am excluding the Korean male rings. I stood behind a gentleman shooting with one of these in Korea at the WTAF and his arrows threw their tails well to the right before they straightened out. This was more prominent than the three fingered shooters and ordinary thumb ring shooters. Since his form was good, I assume the problem came from the type of ring.

There are inconsistencies in the rules for Western archery regarding thumb rings which stem from a lack of understanding of how thumb rings work. Some of the blame for this goes back to Payne-Gallwey in his treatise on Turkish bows where he has the Turkish ring being used like a Korean male ring. In most cases the thumb ring is only a hard finger tab, not a mechanical latch that operates like modern release.

Regarding aiming aids, Muṣṭafā Kānī wrote of using the fingers of the bow hand for aiming which is not far from the Mongols I saw using pen marks on their knuckles as aiming aids years ago. Once you start putting marks on the bow, I think you have gone past most traditional practices.

Yes Bede, the inconsistencies in the rules for Western archery regarding thumb rings stem from a lack of understanding of how thumb rings work. The plan of the Chinese inconsistency regarding Mediterranean draw has the same sort of reason. Forbidding Mediterranean draw does not affect aiming with marks, system shooting, string- or facewalking etc. These techniques only have been used and imported to China with Mediterranean draw using archers. The blame on the way to put fingers on the bowstring is the same as forbidding thumbrings/thumbdraw. It's only the eastern version of the same. This made me laugh, because I see here in Germany how poor this works. The mentioned aimingtechniques can be adopted to thumbdraw, and nothing is won, but the non-thumb-draw techniques are lost for the competitions.

For their most recent domestic competition, it seems the Chinese Traditional Archery Association went ahead an implemented the "thumb draw only" rule for traditional bows.

http://www.lieku8.com/viewthread.php?tid=99779

That competition is taking place this weekend. I don't think this rule would apply for their international-invitational competitions. But yeah, we'll see how this goes.

here atarn not need any manage or especially control, but when a forum no so hot topic and no more fresh tipic do and see, it will turn dieing, in chinese forums also lots hornbow new made and become close ,the chiese bow business forums do main offer up archerys fast growing,but they are ban each others, take members as their separate estate,limit knowledge form others forums,all bow is good bow no members say bad bow lot's sell it to others,i see some members buy grozer and korean 松武 bow break and brawl to seller and bowyer, it is sad for all ,i am agree grozer and korean bowyer come to china see what hapeen and why.......chinese need a forum of .org build by government , the .com not need do more thing up to money is right for their occupation, too many members very easy lost control and difficulty lead them go a good direction,

the most chinese is very introversive they are not so familiar other civilization,but they are very wellcome for foreigner, can we go there(chinese forum www.lieku8.com)? or make a diplomatism of pics first? or try google translate?

stephen, your video of chinese archery till to now can not see form china! also five chinese members in canada never one can help others, never one can translate to chinese.......i am poor english audition, i hope you can show it in new china competition

thanks all