Horns on ebay,,
Horns perfect for making a horn bow on Ebay,,only 32.5 USD a pair, by the way, 12 hours left only......better get herry!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 09670&rd=1
yokhua
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 09670&rd=1
yokhua
You can probably make a bow out of those, and they may have done that in the past, but they are not Ibex. Hope the buyer does not become dissapointed. -j-
Jack,
They look like something I have seen in a wildlife documentary. Do you know what they are?
They look like something I have seen in a wildlife documentary. Do you know what they are?
Oryx?
I can only guess and say Sable. Coincedently there was a wildlife display just the other day.
Breaking news: Do you all remember those Ibex horns that I am working into an Egyptian Angular bow? The first surprise is that both the Cretan wild goat and the Nubian Ibex horns are almost black inside. This was quite a surprise as they are all quite pale outside. There is also surprisingly little usable horn. The hole in the center goes almost to the tip. The inside of the curve is even worse. There is just barely enough material to get one thin, narrow slat from the outside curve. However, the horn is extremely flexible, much more than W. Buffalo. A thin scrap can be easily tied into a knot. This consistency reminds me of African Watusi Longhorn. Sooner or later an experiment in Persian bowmaking seems appropriate what with all the long oblique scraps. Am sinewing this weekend. Will post pic soon. -j-
Breaking news: Do you all remember those Ibex horns that I am working into an Egyptian Angular bow? The first surprise is that both the Cretan wild goat and the Nubian Ibex horns are almost black inside. This was quite a surprise as they are all quite pale outside. There is also surprisingly little usable horn. The hole in the center goes almost to the tip. The inside of the curve is even worse. There is just barely enough material to get one thin, narrow slat from the outside curve. However, the horn is extremely flexible, much more than W. Buffalo. A thin scrap can be easily tied into a knot. This consistency reminds me of African Watusi Longhorn. Sooner or later an experiment in Persian bowmaking seems appropriate what with all the long oblique scraps. Am sinewing this weekend. Will post pic soon. -j-
Jack
can you tell me something about your expiriences with east African watussi
longhorn? Is it worth a try???
salaam
can you tell me something about your expiriences with east African watussi
longhorn? Is it worth a try???
salaam
Alam; The temptation to use watussi horn was so great because of the price. $5 for a perfect, smooth horn sheath. I bought several. But when cut, the horn had many splits between the layers. The horn could be delaminated by hand! Some narrow strips were obtained such that three made a limb width. The horn is fantastically flexible. But I would not do it again. Some of those cold weather Hungarian cattle would be very tempting.
Nevertheless, a shootable bow was obtained.
Alam, here is my big jag. If one is going to go to all the trouble to make a repro of an ancient artifact, taking months of effort, to make something that might last a lifetime, wouldn't the most authentic materials be the most desirable? There is no doubting that water buffalo and Hard rock maple make a perfect bow but just how authentic is this? Doesn't Klopsteg state cattle horn? Doesn't Arab archery say goat horns? What horn does Unsal mention? Any other sources?
It is recognized that maple was a choice of Turkish archers. What is Turkish maple like? Is it like North American Rock maple? -j-
Nevertheless, a shootable bow was obtained.
Alam, here is my big jag. If one is going to go to all the trouble to make a repro of an ancient artifact, taking months of effort, to make something that might last a lifetime, wouldn't the most authentic materials be the most desirable? There is no doubting that water buffalo and Hard rock maple make a perfect bow but just how authentic is this? Doesn't Klopsteg state cattle horn? Doesn't Arab archery say goat horns? What horn does Unsal mention? Any other sources?
It is recognized that maple was a choice of Turkish archers. What is Turkish maple like? Is it like North American Rock maple? -j-
Thank you, Jack.
You are right in what you say about authentic materials. Nevertheless I find watussi horn tempting because its size, price and availiability. At the moment I am building a turkish bow, using buffalo horn strips. But I read as well that sometimes cattle horn was being used. So I am eager to try this one as well.
I am not sure if Turks used Hungarian grey cattle, but it might be so. There seems to be some difference between tropical horn and those from temperate climate zones. Its very hard to get hold of Hungarian grey cattle horn. They are only about 4000 left and they are being raised in hungarian national parks,where they are almost a symbol of the Hungarian nation like the bald eagle in the US.... It's interesting that you mentioned rock maple as it is
what I am using. I suspect that ancient bowyers in Turkey used tataric maple(acer tataricum) because Klopstek states that out of one felled maple tree only two bows can be made. The common field maple and mountain mable both develope large stems which is why they are still commercially used today.Tataric maple is also found in Turkey and the Balkans but it doesn't develop any larger stem that would have commercial value these days. I found it near impossible to find. Yes, I was offered a small piece by an American dealer who got it from Holland....Please if you know any source of this wood, please let me know. I know that it grows in large parts of Ohio where it was intrduced.
So,you know...sometimes its hard not to substitute one thing for another.....but the plan and the wish to use authentic materials is there.
Salaam
You are right in what you say about authentic materials. Nevertheless I find watussi horn tempting because its size, price and availiability. At the moment I am building a turkish bow, using buffalo horn strips. But I read as well that sometimes cattle horn was being used. So I am eager to try this one as well.
I am not sure if Turks used Hungarian grey cattle, but it might be so. There seems to be some difference between tropical horn and those from temperate climate zones. Its very hard to get hold of Hungarian grey cattle horn. They are only about 4000 left and they are being raised in hungarian national parks,where they are almost a symbol of the Hungarian nation like the bald eagle in the US.... It's interesting that you mentioned rock maple as it is
what I am using. I suspect that ancient bowyers in Turkey used tataric maple(acer tataricum) because Klopstek states that out of one felled maple tree only two bows can be made. The common field maple and mountain mable both develope large stems which is why they are still commercially used today.Tataric maple is also found in Turkey and the Balkans but it doesn't develop any larger stem that would have commercial value these days. I found it near impossible to find. Yes, I was offered a small piece by an American dealer who got it from Holland....Please if you know any source of this wood, please let me know. I know that it grows in large parts of Ohio where it was intrduced.
So,you know...sometimes its hard not to substitute one thing for another.....but the plan and the wish to use authentic materials is there.
Salaam
Alam; There is a source for Ibex in Germany, I found him on a google search. The price is not excessive as they are looking for trophy material and those with broken knobs are greatly discounted. For bow making the knobs are cut off anyway. Ibex are coming back. They are being reintroduced and they take well to marginal places. Their real pressure is from hunting. But they also do not live so long and when they die....
Is it possible to ID the species of ancient Turkish cattle?
Idea 3. I believe that in Romania, Bulgaria and places like Belarus, oxen are still used as draft animals. Some might have good horns as these are cold weather places. What do you think?
I will look into your maple. Where there is a will, there is a way. -j-
Is it possible to ID the species of ancient Turkish cattle?
Idea 3. I believe that in Romania, Bulgaria and places like Belarus, oxen are still used as draft animals. Some might have good horns as these are cold weather places. What do you think?
I will look into your maple. Where there is a will, there is a way. -j-
Can you post the source in Germany? Any information is highly appreciated (as I live in germany... :D )
hi Axel,one source is:www.tierpraeparation.de
but tell them exactly what you need,better is to tell them what you will not accept.
but tell them exactly what you need,better is to tell them what you will not accept.
Jack
I have written a letter to the Cattle Breeders' Associations of Turkey in order to find out more about ancient turkish longhorn cattle breeds. Let's see what they have to say. However, there was a lot of trade in the ottoman empire and the empire itself was gigantic, so it will be difficult to pinpoint the source unless we have an old text that says more about the breed.....
I will check on what kind of cattle is being used by the Hungarian minority in Romania and Bulgaria....but with the present gas prices it will be quiet costly to drive there in order to get the horns and there isn't a real infrastructure like internet access......etc. Those areas are quiet remote....
Meanwhile, what about texan longhorn breeds. Didn't they decend from European breeds? What about the quality of the horn? I found out that the DNA of cattle in Europe had no admixture with the local auroxs and all the modern European breeds decend from the near east and middle east. If you look at it this way you can't really mess a lot with authenticity.(joking)
African cattle decends from a different race alltogether, a sort of wild ox that roamed the Sahara(maybe like the Indian gaur) when it wasn't a desert.Later, African cattle breeds where crossbred with the Indian zebu breeds resulting in the east African hump backed breeds.That might explain the difference in the quality of the horn.
Concerning ibex:
Is the source(www.tierpraeparation.de) of redhawk the same as yours?
I have found this source(german)which sells different species of ibex(also Nubian ibex),goat horns, mufflon......etc. Here the link:
[/url] http://www.krampusmania.at/wbb2/board.p ... 1824741ed8
salaam
I have written a letter to the Cattle Breeders' Associations of Turkey in order to find out more about ancient turkish longhorn cattle breeds. Let's see what they have to say. However, there was a lot of trade in the ottoman empire and the empire itself was gigantic, so it will be difficult to pinpoint the source unless we have an old text that says more about the breed.....
I will check on what kind of cattle is being used by the Hungarian minority in Romania and Bulgaria....but with the present gas prices it will be quiet costly to drive there in order to get the horns and there isn't a real infrastructure like internet access......etc. Those areas are quiet remote....
Meanwhile, what about texan longhorn breeds. Didn't they decend from European breeds? What about the quality of the horn? I found out that the DNA of cattle in Europe had no admixture with the local auroxs and all the modern European breeds decend from the near east and middle east. If you look at it this way you can't really mess a lot with authenticity.(joking)
African cattle decends from a different race alltogether, a sort of wild ox that roamed the Sahara(maybe like the Indian gaur) when it wasn't a desert.Later, African cattle breeds where crossbred with the Indian zebu breeds resulting in the east African hump backed breeds.That might explain the difference in the quality of the horn.
Concerning ibex:
Is the source(www.tierpraeparation.de) of redhawk the same as yours?
I have found this source(german)which sells different species of ibex(also Nubian ibex),goat horns, mufflon......etc. Here the link:
[/url] http://www.krampusmania.at/wbb2/board.p ... 1824741ed8
salaam
One thing that might be worth considering regarding the word "cattle". In English it is a generic term for bovines. It would in normal use include water buffalo as well as normal European cattle and brahmins.
In some of the Chinese literature I have seen, there is no distinction made between ordinary cattle and water buffalo.
I have been told that there is evidence of water buffalo in Mesopotamia, ancient Iraq, going back to the times of the early city states. Even the Ancient Egyptians could have imported it.
In some of the Chinese literature I have seen, there is no distinction made between ordinary cattle and water buffalo.
I have been told that there is evidence of water buffalo in Mesopotamia, ancient Iraq, going back to the times of the early city states. Even the Ancient Egyptians could have imported it.
Bede
Sorry, I am not very knowlegeable in English language. It isn't my native
tongue. I didn't want to include buffalo and bison when I used the term cattle. What I meant was only bovus taurus species (cow).
In other places, such as the Arab peninsula and India they distinct very well between the two species. In India most of the milk sold in pouches is produced by waterbuffalo.But it is not favoured by the people. They say it makes ones mind dull and produces sloth(&mucus) and aggression whilst the milk of cows(bos taurus indica)is only benficial. This may be due to the high fat content of buffalo milk...... On the other hand, people have observed, that a buffalo will walk on top of a sleeping person by the roadside(breaking his bones), while a cow will walk carefully around such a person.At last a crossbreed between cow and buffalo, if successfull at all, will become infertile. All this may have inspired the people of the region to draw distinctive line between the two animals.
The reason why we are discussing cows is that its use in bows has been
stated. We are trying to identify the cow species that delivered that kind
of high quality horn. Do you have anything on that Bede?
salaam
Sorry, I am not very knowlegeable in English language. It isn't my native
tongue. I didn't want to include buffalo and bison when I used the term cattle. What I meant was only bovus taurus species (cow).
In other places, such as the Arab peninsula and India they distinct very well between the two species. In India most of the milk sold in pouches is produced by waterbuffalo.But it is not favoured by the people. They say it makes ones mind dull and produces sloth(&mucus) and aggression whilst the milk of cows(bos taurus indica)is only benficial. This may be due to the high fat content of buffalo milk...... On the other hand, people have observed, that a buffalo will walk on top of a sleeping person by the roadside(breaking his bones), while a cow will walk carefully around such a person.At last a crossbreed between cow and buffalo, if successfull at all, will become infertile. All this may have inspired the people of the region to draw distinctive line between the two animals.
The reason why we are discussing cows is that its use in bows has been
stated. We are trying to identify the cow species that delivered that kind
of high quality horn. Do you have anything on that Bede?
salaam
Alam and all; Texas has all kinds of cattle. Some breeders are careful to keep only "pure breeds" or maybe special cross breeds and others find it beneficial to constantly introduce new breeds into their herds. There is negligible trade in horns here. However, I am sure they can be had. But experimenting by making a bow is a painful experience. It would be easy to simply cut the horns and see what happens. Cattle have been imported here from Africa and India and presumably from all over the world for more than 150 years. The first imported cattle were Castillian black cattle, about the early 1700s.
The horn needn't be that long if you consider the length of a Turkish bow, so "Long horn Cattle" may not be necessary. Don't limit the scope of the search.
Ibex have been introduced to New Mexico, a state of the USA, with enough success to now allow limited hunting. I have not seen any for sale.
I discarded the German Ibex info but he was partners with Tierschadle, something like that. Could have been even Tien Shan Ibex species.
Archeologist Shelly Wachsmann asserts that there were waterbuffalos being introduced into Mesopotamia at the time of King Tut. There is elaborate proof that the Egyptians were importing Ibex for bowmaking after over hunting their own.-j-
The horn needn't be that long if you consider the length of a Turkish bow, so "Long horn Cattle" may not be necessary. Don't limit the scope of the search.
Ibex have been introduced to New Mexico, a state of the USA, with enough success to now allow limited hunting. I have not seen any for sale.
I discarded the German Ibex info but he was partners with Tierschadle, something like that. Could have been even Tien Shan Ibex species.
Archeologist Shelly Wachsmann asserts that there were waterbuffalos being introduced into Mesopotamia at the time of King Tut. There is elaborate proof that the Egyptians were importing Ibex for bowmaking after over hunting their own.-j-
Alam,
I have seen one of Dr Fabian's Hungarian bows reconstructed with horns from the Hungarian blue ox. It is possible that similar cattle were available to the Turks. the Hungarian breed almost disappeared, but has been saved from extinction. I am not sure whether this was from back breeding where there is the possibility that characteristics of other breeds might be present in the current specimens.
My point about the term "cattle" was that people who were courtiers in Istanbul might not have been precise about the species of cattle they were referring to simply because the people for whom they were writing already knew what species they were talking about. There are many confusions about measurements in old archery texts because the same word is used for different measurements at different times and places. This problem might also exist for the word translated as cattle.
Jack,
Thanks for the comment from Shelley. Have you read anything about argali horns being used? I saw a video of them being cut up for bows in Mongolia.
I have seen one of Dr Fabian's Hungarian bows reconstructed with horns from the Hungarian blue ox. It is possible that similar cattle were available to the Turks. the Hungarian breed almost disappeared, but has been saved from extinction. I am not sure whether this was from back breeding where there is the possibility that characteristics of other breeds might be present in the current specimens.
My point about the term "cattle" was that people who were courtiers in Istanbul might not have been precise about the species of cattle they were referring to simply because the people for whom they were writing already knew what species they were talking about. There are many confusions about measurements in old archery texts because the same word is used for different measurements at different times and places. This problem might also exist for the word translated as cattle.
Jack,
Thanks for the comment from Shelley. Have you read anything about argali horns being used? I saw a video of them being cut up for bows in Mongolia.
Bede; Argali are the largest sheep in the world, with twice the size horn that American Indians made their famous horn bows from. I have not seen literature on Argali bows but why not? I have made 6 bows of Mouflon which is smaller yet than American Big horn sheep. Am sure that Red hawk also has experience.
My modern Mongolian bow has light colored horn. Since cutting two species of Ibex and finding them both to be black, it may be that my bow is of Argali. But then it may also be cattle. -j-
My modern Mongolian bow has light colored horn. Since cutting two species of Ibex and finding them both to be black, it may be that my bow is of Argali. But then it may also be cattle. -j-
it's all cattle. isn't it?
salaam
salaam
hi,
I?ve made bows of waterbuffalo,mountain goat,mufflon,watussi,ram and some others I couldn?t identify.The best is waterbuffalo,easy to get and easy to work,no problems with the bows made with it.Mountain goat,ram and mufflon I do without a wooden core,only sinew-backed,I like these bows very much,even if there will be more or less problems with twisting limbs and humidity.On hot summer days great bows.
I?ve given up watussi,separating splinters,less power than the other horns,it?s not worth the work.
I?ve even done bows with horns from bison on a wooden core,but Jack convinced me that there is no historical evidence and the qualities of such a bow didn?t convince me.The same thing with bone(rips from buffalo),there seems to be historical evidence and these bows should be great bows but I haven?t had success with them.
I?ve made bows of waterbuffalo,mountain goat,mufflon,watussi,ram and some others I couldn?t identify.The best is waterbuffalo,easy to get and easy to work,no problems with the bows made with it.Mountain goat,ram and mufflon I do without a wooden core,only sinew-backed,I like these bows very much,even if there will be more or less problems with twisting limbs and humidity.On hot summer days great bows.
I?ve given up watussi,separating splinters,less power than the other horns,it?s not worth the work.
I?ve even done bows with horns from bison on a wooden core,but Jack convinced me that there is no historical evidence and the qualities of such a bow didn?t convince me.The same thing with bone(rips from buffalo),there seems to be historical evidence and these bows should be great bows but I haven?t had success with them.
Ibex? The only Ibex horn that I've found is twisted into a spiral, with huge ribs running all the way round, all the way up.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/PAIR-OF-IBEX-HOR ... dZViewItem
Are there other species of ibex with straight horns?
Dave
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/PAIR-OF-IBEX-HOR ... dZViewItem
Are there other species of ibex with straight horns?
Dave
Dave, that's African Ibex. No use for bow-making.
Dave
you can see ibex horn here. You can also purchase them but they are rather
expensive!!! They aren't alpine European ones but Siberian ones. The group
that made this website is involved in producing some pagan bavarian masks
where they attach these horns. If you browse the site you will find all kinds
of ibex (also single horns) and other horn. follow this link
http://www.krampusmania.at/wbb2/thread. ... df9c61297b
Jack:
The use of goat horn for the belly of arab bow has been stated. I am not sure what goat species it was they used, but thy all appear to be twisted. I wonder how these(link) could be straightened out to get a good horn strip.
http://www.krampusmania.at/wbb2/thread. ... df55101ae6
salaam
you can see ibex horn here. You can also purchase them but they are rather
expensive!!! They aren't alpine European ones but Siberian ones. The group
that made this website is involved in producing some pagan bavarian masks
where they attach these horns. If you browse the site you will find all kinds
of ibex (also single horns) and other horn. follow this link
http://www.krampusmania.at/wbb2/thread. ... df9c61297b
Jack:
The use of goat horn for the belly of arab bow has been stated. I am not sure what goat species it was they used, but thy all appear to be twisted. I wonder how these(link) could be straightened out to get a good horn strip.
http://www.krampusmania.at/wbb2/thread. ... df55101ae6
salaam
hi Alam,to straighten the hornstrips is an easy job.
You have to cut the strip along the outside of the horn,to rasp a flat surface and to thin it at your desired and possible measurements.Then boil the hornstrip for 20 minutes and force it with clamps on a flat surface,so you got it.
But take care,if the horns have been very "spiralled",the limbs of the bow will more or less twist a bit.
You have to cut the strip along the outside of the horn,to rasp a flat surface and to thin it at your desired and possible measurements.Then boil the hornstrip for 20 minutes and force it with clamps on a flat surface,so you got it.
But take care,if the horns have been very "spiralled",the limbs of the bow will more or less twist a bit.
Alam; The horns on the first Krampusmania site are the correct type, with a single curve, not the spiraled ones. Don't know how you feel about horns from a satanic worship site but the goat probably didn't have this in mind eighter.
There are a lot of types of Ibex. I believe that they all can interbreed. -j-
There are a lot of types of Ibex. I believe that they all can interbreed. -j-
jack & all
"
I wouldn't post a link to anything satanic here! This "krampus & perchten stuff" isn't really satanism.Its rather some tribal bavarian/alemannic masks
which they used to chase the winter ghosts away, something like carneval.
Anyway, I don't know much about it.The masks look disgusting,truly devilish.
I don't like them at all!!! the good thing:, these people trade in horn.
Just enter either of the two"krampus" or "perchten" into the ebay start page and it often comes up with stuff like this:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Steinbock-Perchten_W ... dZViewItem
salaam
"
I wouldn't post a link to anything satanic here! This "krampus & perchten stuff" isn't really satanism.Its rather some tribal bavarian/alemannic masks
which they used to chase the winter ghosts away, something like carneval.
Anyway, I don't know much about it.The masks look disgusting,truly devilish.
I don't like them at all!!! the good thing:, these people trade in horn.
Just enter either of the two"krampus" or "perchten" into the ebay start page and it often comes up with stuff like this:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Steinbock-Perchten_W ... dZViewItem
salaam
Alam; Those ebay Ibex horns are the correct type. The other statement was just a joke. -j-
I know it was a joke.I was checking if you made it through hurricane Lisa.Hope you are OK. Are you in Houston area? How is the condition there?
Salaam
Salaam