FNG with many questions!
Howdy!
I'm retired military living in New Mexico, USA. I've been loosing (and losing) arrows since I was 9 years old in 1964.
Started out w modern recurves, tried compounds for a few years, went back to "traditional" bows. I have modern recurves and longbows (AKA as American flatbows). If my use of "traditional" is not yours, and I'm in the wrong place, let me know and I'll go away.
I've always liked the look of the Asian recurves, finally got around to trying some: Samick SKB, Kaya Khan, Ragim Taiga, Kassai Magyar Sport, Bearpaw/Atilla Mongolian, Saluki Turk and Ibex, and Attila's Archery Medieval Hungarian Hunting Bow. Have some Chinese bows on the way that look like Mariners but aren't (liTang HD mean anything to anybody?).
Tried thumb shooting. It was a dismal failure since I don't know what I'm doing and don't know anybody here (Albuquerque) who does. So I'm shooting split fingers.
I have no trouble getting good arrow flight w my recurves (some from the 50s/60s) and longbows, but always get a from a little to a lot of side to side "kick" when shooting the Asian bows. Even the Saluki and Attila's Archery bows with shelves do it a little. Have played w arrow spine, length, weight, point weight to no success. Tight groups where I want them, but that kick is still there. Any ideas?
Some historical questions. The Scythians originated the recurve? The Huns the siyas? The Chinese the string bridge? What's the bridge do? Why would I want one/avoid it?
I'm fascinated by tips. So many ways to skin that cat? The modern recurves (like my Gelco/Bears) have a Scythian like tip? Why? How did that happen?
The Chinese bows on the way have tips/siyas that look almost Turkish (to me) but with a smaller bridge than the Mariner Qing...
I'm retired military living in New Mexico, USA. I've been loosing (and losing) arrows since I was 9 years old in 1964.
Started out w modern recurves, tried compounds for a few years, went back to "traditional" bows. I have modern recurves and longbows (AKA as American flatbows). If my use of "traditional" is not yours, and I'm in the wrong place, let me know and I'll go away.
I've always liked the look of the Asian recurves, finally got around to trying some: Samick SKB, Kaya Khan, Ragim Taiga, Kassai Magyar Sport, Bearpaw/Atilla Mongolian, Saluki Turk and Ibex, and Attila's Archery Medieval Hungarian Hunting Bow. Have some Chinese bows on the way that look like Mariners but aren't (liTang HD mean anything to anybody?).
Tried thumb shooting. It was a dismal failure since I don't know what I'm doing and don't know anybody here (Albuquerque) who does. So I'm shooting split fingers.
I have no trouble getting good arrow flight w my recurves (some from the 50s/60s) and longbows, but always get a from a little to a lot of side to side "kick" when shooting the Asian bows. Even the Saluki and Attila's Archery bows with shelves do it a little. Have played w arrow spine, length, weight, point weight to no success. Tight groups where I want them, but that kick is still there. Any ideas?
Some historical questions. The Scythians originated the recurve? The Huns the siyas? The Chinese the string bridge? What's the bridge do? Why would I want one/avoid it?
I'm fascinated by tips. So many ways to skin that cat? The modern recurves (like my Gelco/Bears) have a Scythian like tip? Why? How did that happen?
The Chinese bows on the way have tips/siyas that look almost Turkish (to me) but with a smaller bridge than the Mariner Qing...
Hi Mike, new here myself, know you from Archery Talk.
Any way this site is great. The focus seems to be on bows made from natural materials (which is what I like about it).
Hope to start a hungarian bow soon using horn and sinew.
I did get a laminated hunnish that shoots wood arrows fine but can't seem to get alum. or carbons to fly good yet.
Todd
Any way this site is great. The focus seems to be on bows made from natural materials (which is what I like about it).
Hope to start a hungarian bow soon using horn and sinew.
I did get a laminated hunnish that shoots wood arrows fine but can't seem to get alum. or carbons to fly good yet.
Todd
Welcome
This site was founded by Stephen Selby, author of "Chinese Archery" and other publications on trad asian archery, which is the main focus but in fact concerns the overwhelming part of historical archery in the world as you will find out.
concerning your questions
others here can give more educated responses but here are my thoughts
The Scythians originated the recurve?
there are depictions of likely composite recurves from stone age (5000BC-2800BC) depictions in Spain (Levante Culture Art).
the probably oldest preserved reflexed composite (with horn) bows are from egypt (Tut-Ankh Amun's tomb, ruled 1332 BC ? 1323 BC). These have reflex but no recurve.
The Yanghai scythian bow published in JSAA was dated to 1000-400BC.
The Huns the siyas?
depends on what we call "Huns". "Hun" means "man/human" in mongolian. The earliest bone plate finds are probably from Siberia (Lake Baikal area 2-3rd cent BC), and soldiers througout the Roman Empire seem to have used this kind of bow, so finds are dispersed from China to Great Britain.
Interestingly a Persian manuscript from 11th century attributes the invention of bone-reinforcements for bows to Bahram Gur the fourteenth Sassanid King of Persia (421?438). He defeated the Hephthalites ("Huns") and drove them back to the Oxus
The Chinese the string bridge?
no. see http://atarn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=277
What's the bridge do? Why would I want one/avoid it?
prevent the string from slipping off the siyah in bows that have "contact" siyahs. There is a story of a Persian prince who died from the siyah scattering his skull when his bowstring slipped.
Theoretically more recurved bows are more efficient and have less stacking (for mathematical modeling see B.W.Kooi's publications). contact siyahs maximize this effect while increasing risk of instability.
I'm fascinated by tips. So many ways to skin that cat? The modern recurves (like my Gelco/Bears) have a Scythian like tip? Why? How did that happen?
no idea.
Cheers :D
This site was founded by Stephen Selby, author of "Chinese Archery" and other publications on trad asian archery, which is the main focus but in fact concerns the overwhelming part of historical archery in the world as you will find out.
concerning your questions
others here can give more educated responses but here are my thoughts
The Scythians originated the recurve?
there are depictions of likely composite recurves from stone age (5000BC-2800BC) depictions in Spain (Levante Culture Art).
the probably oldest preserved reflexed composite (with horn) bows are from egypt (Tut-Ankh Amun's tomb, ruled 1332 BC ? 1323 BC). These have reflex but no recurve.
The Yanghai scythian bow published in JSAA was dated to 1000-400BC.
The Huns the siyas?
depends on what we call "Huns". "Hun" means "man/human" in mongolian. The earliest bone plate finds are probably from Siberia (Lake Baikal area 2-3rd cent BC), and soldiers througout the Roman Empire seem to have used this kind of bow, so finds are dispersed from China to Great Britain.
Interestingly a Persian manuscript from 11th century attributes the invention of bone-reinforcements for bows to Bahram Gur the fourteenth Sassanid King of Persia (421?438). He defeated the Hephthalites ("Huns") and drove them back to the Oxus
The Chinese the string bridge?
no. see http://atarn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=277
What's the bridge do? Why would I want one/avoid it?
prevent the string from slipping off the siyah in bows that have "contact" siyahs. There is a story of a Persian prince who died from the siyah scattering his skull when his bowstring slipped.
Theoretically more recurved bows are more efficient and have less stacking (for mathematical modeling see B.W.Kooi's publications). contact siyahs maximize this effect while increasing risk of instability.
I'm fascinated by tips. So many ways to skin that cat? The modern recurves (like my Gelco/Bears) have a Scythian like tip? Why? How did that happen?
no idea.
Cheers :D
Thank you very much!Uli wrote:
Welcome
This site was founded by Stephen Selby, author of "Chinese Archery" and other publications on trad asian archery, which is the main focus but in fact concerns the overwhelming part of historical archery in the world as you will find out.
Cheers :D
My interest is Eastern European bows and the bows they came from since my roots are Ukrainian. That would be Hun, Mongol, Tatar, Magyar, and Turk?
I'm not interested in going where most of you are, but I enjoy reading about it. I'm happy w stuff that looks Asian but has the grip and shelf I am used to. That lead me to Saluki and Attila's Archery; I like what I have now, but I still like to look.
My "Medieval Hungarian" style bows have Ash and Canarywood handles and siyas, bamboo limb cores under clear glass, w Ostrich limb covers.
Thanks to others for info in PMs. Wish I had found you guys before I ordered the Chinese bows I did. They are more than OK for me, but I could have done better.
Howdy & Welcome, Mike. I have been in your position, I first got a workable foundation in learning the thumb draw from Lukas Novotny- after purchasing a Saluki Ibex in 2005, I subsequently got a thumb ring from him that enabled me to start drawing & loosing without pain or injury and some control of arrow flight- just from a one-day meeting at ETAR in 2005 or 6. Subsequently I got a far superior ring from Chris Constantine of "Spitfire Horse Archery" - and very detailed lessons; all by email, his on-line forum, and telephone consultations. So yes, you can learn the thumb draw- although the beginner's learning curve is very steep; but mostly because of a lifetime of 3-finger draw. My kid students with light or no experience in 3-finger learn thumb draw as quickly and easily as they do 3 finger. I am continually amazed at the ease with which true beginners with no significant prior experience learn the thumb draw.
That being said, you can shoot the Asiatic style bows using 3-finger, some of course more easily than others. But the shorter, lighter (mass weight), more sensitive ones will never show their full potential: A. You will usually short-draw them, compared to most thumb draw styles. B. You will always have more paradox compared to a good thumb release. But, if your arrows all group, and they go where you want them, congratulations! Same thing happens to me when I occasionally shoot my 54" Saluki "Damascus" with fingers. Just the way it is with these bows and that technique.
With the thumb draw finally learned, internalized, and now my instinctive go-to method some interesting things have manifested in my shooting. As mentioned, arrows come straight out of the Asiatic style bows. I can shoot any spine, no matter how stiff, and bare-shafts fly straight to the mark, not only grouping with fletched but also just as straight in the target- IF my release & follow-through are correct. However, it's very difficult (but not impossible) to bare-shaft this way shooting my HH Wesley, Hill-style American long bow w/thumbdraw. (all my longbows are no-shelf, no center shot. Even shooting fingers, I prefer off the knuckle). I can no longer tolerate any bow that is center-shot and has a shelf, with the sole exception of my 30# & 40# normal American target recurves. I practice RH finger release with those, (vanquishing an old TP demon in my spare time) but for kicks 'n giggles I'll put a ring on my left thumb and take a few shots that way- works fine for those two bows!
Bow hunting tip (hunting for bows, that is!) Check out the old Bears, particularly the static-tip Grizzlys, the Polars, even the humble Cubs from ca. 1953 - 57. They can be gotten cheaply, with dual or no shelves. (I have filed the shelves off some & refinished the handles) and they work extremely well with the thumb draw technique. "Accidental Asiatics" I call them!
That being said, you can shoot the Asiatic style bows using 3-finger, some of course more easily than others. But the shorter, lighter (mass weight), more sensitive ones will never show their full potential: A. You will usually short-draw them, compared to most thumb draw styles. B. You will always have more paradox compared to a good thumb release. But, if your arrows all group, and they go where you want them, congratulations! Same thing happens to me when I occasionally shoot my 54" Saluki "Damascus" with fingers. Just the way it is with these bows and that technique.
With the thumb draw finally learned, internalized, and now my instinctive go-to method some interesting things have manifested in my shooting. As mentioned, arrows come straight out of the Asiatic style bows. I can shoot any spine, no matter how stiff, and bare-shafts fly straight to the mark, not only grouping with fletched but also just as straight in the target- IF my release & follow-through are correct. However, it's very difficult (but not impossible) to bare-shaft this way shooting my HH Wesley, Hill-style American long bow w/thumbdraw. (all my longbows are no-shelf, no center shot. Even shooting fingers, I prefer off the knuckle). I can no longer tolerate any bow that is center-shot and has a shelf, with the sole exception of my 30# & 40# normal American target recurves. I practice RH finger release with those, (vanquishing an old TP demon in my spare time) but for kicks 'n giggles I'll put a ring on my left thumb and take a few shots that way- works fine for those two bows!
Bow hunting tip (hunting for bows, that is!) Check out the old Bears, particularly the static-tip Grizzlys, the Polars, even the humble Cubs from ca. 1953 - 57. They can be gotten cheaply, with dual or no shelves. (I have filed the shelves off some & refinished the handles) and they work extremely well with the thumb draw technique. "Accidental Asiatics" I call them!
Thanks.
At first I thought the problem was the bows were too "cheap", but when I had the problem w the Salukis I tried I knew it was all me!
At first I thought the problem was the bows were too "cheap", but when I had the problem w the Salukis I tried I knew it was all me!
Mike; Try different release aids, finger tabs, gloves etc. But first I experiment with the nocking point. My Korean type bows will just not behave unless shot about 1/2 inch above square.
Bows with arrow rests are not really well represented by 'traditional". Americans insist that this moniker include almost anything they want it to. Other nationalities are more insistent on older styles. As antiquated styles represent the best of ancient technology, I would say to just try it and discover the bliss.
Bows with arrow rests are not really well represented by 'traditional". Americans insist that this moniker include almost anything they want it to. Other nationalities are more insistent on older styles. As antiquated styles represent the best of ancient technology, I would say to just try it and discover the bliss.
Thanks. I've been nocking about 4/8-5/8, what I usually do w my modern recurves and "longbows". Beats me how to define traditional, classic, modern, etc. However you do it, somebody will not be happy w it.jack farrell wrote:
Mike; Try different release aids, finger tabs, gloves etc. But first I experiment with the nocking point. My Korean type bows will just not behave unless shot about 1/2 inch above square.
Bows with arrow rests are not really well represented by 'traditional". Americans insist that this moniker include almost anything they want it to. Other nationalities are more insistent on older styles. As antiquated styles represent the best of ancient technology, I would say to just try it and discover the bliss.
I can live w where I'm at, was hoping for a quick n easy fix I may have overlooked. Don't want to turn my fun and games into work.
To me, traditional means what was done hundreds or thousands of years ago. This means hand made, no plastic.
There is one exception well received, synthetic bow string; because to break a string threatens the bow.
There is one exception well received, synthetic bow string; because to break a string threatens the bow.
UNODIR to me traditional means not a compound, longbow means not a recurve. modern means synthetic materials, classic means before synthetics, primitive before civilization/cities, hybrid a mashup of any of the above.
That's not the case here, but your house, your rules/definitions. Until I know what those are, I try to avoid poking the hornet's nest.
I know what the guy who made my bow calls it, I know what I call it, I'll find out what others call it...
A rose by any other name?
That's not the case here, but your house, your rules/definitions. Until I know what those are, I try to avoid poking the hornet's nest.
I know what the guy who made my bow calls it, I know what I call it, I'll find out what others call it...
A rose by any other name?
My Chinese bows arrived today and I am very happy w them! Smooth, fast, and quiet. All my wood, glass, and aluminum arrows are flying perfectly straight w no kick, and that's off my hand w split fingers!
I ordered the model w string bridge, but they sent the model w/o bridge; that's fine, I like these better. Remind me of the Mariner Ming Moon bows.
Like 'em so much I may have to order some of the shorter Mariner Ming Moon 4s to go w them!
I ordered the model w string bridge, but they sent the model w/o bridge; that's fine, I like these better. Remind me of the Mariner Ming Moon bows.
Like 'em so much I may have to order some of the shorter Mariner Ming Moon 4s to go w them!
Hi Mike
Just wondering about any updates on your Chinese bows? Who made them?
Nice looking bows. Weights? Lengths?
Just wondering about any updates on your Chinese bows? Who made them?
Nice looking bows. Weights? Lengths?
Made by Zhang Li, this is his Han model.
40@28, 58 inch string braces it at 6 inches.
Worked great, but I wanted a different look... only bows of the above I still have is the middle one (GELCO from the 1950s).
Current favorite is my Attila's Archery U-finish bow. This one braces at 7 inches w a 50 inch string, 45@28. Ash handle (I stained this), maple and clear glass limbs.
40@28, 58 inch string braces it at 6 inches.
Worked great, but I wanted a different look... only bows of the above I still have is the middle one (GELCO from the 1950s).
Current favorite is my Attila's Archery U-finish bow. This one braces at 7 inches w a 50 inch string, 45@28. Ash handle (I stained this), maple and clear glass limbs.
Thats a beautiful bow Mike ! How long is it overal?
I have an ash core picked out, still have to take more wood off, with the siyahs it will be about 56" overal. I have the whitetail deer sinew, need the horn yet.
I am shopping for a dark contrasting siyah wood. But light weight.
Its going to be a slow project but fun.
Is there a website for Zhang Li?
I have an ash core picked out, still have to take more wood off, with the siyahs it will be about 56" overal. I have the whitetail deer sinew, need the horn yet.
I am shopping for a dark contrasting siyah wood. But light weight.
Its going to be a slow project but fun.
Is there a website for Zhang Li?
Zhang Li link (more info on the China link than English, use Bing to translate): http://www.alibow.cn/
The Attila's bow is 53 tip to tip strung. http://attilasarchery.com/shop/
Strung/unstrung.
The Attila's bow is 53 tip to tip strung. http://attilasarchery.com/shop/
Strung/unstrung.
Thanks Mike, very interesting !!
Zhang looks like a possible source for Buffalo Horn .
I agree with your definitions, they work for me. I have no problem with modern or traditional, they are the most accurate terms to me. Each to his own.
Zhang looks like a possible source for Buffalo Horn .
I agree with your definitions, they work for me. I have no problem with modern or traditional, they are the most accurate terms to me. Each to his own.