Special visit to the T?rckische Cammer in Dresden possible
Dear all,
the "T?rckische Cammer" in Dresden has around a dozen of original Turkish and Crimean Tatar bows on display, quite a few of them still strung.
http://www.skd.museum/de/museen-institu ... he-cammer/
The curator, Mr Schuckelt, has been so kind to agree to a special visit by up to five interested ATARNos during which it will be possible to remove some of the bows from their cabinets and give them a closer look.
Mr Schuckelt hopes to gain additional info on the bows in his collection: What type of bow is it, what is special about them? For us, it would be a great occasion to measure and weigh the bows (and ramie strings, where possible) so reproductions would become possible. It is not clear yet if we can take pictures.
Due to organizational reasons stated by the museum, the visit has to be conducted on a Tuesday in June or August.
If you you can contribute to supplying additional info on the bows and would like to participate, please use this doodle form to state your preferred date(s):
http://www.doodle.com/auzpf4p8etfqypz4
When filling out the form, please use your forum nickname so I can contact you afterwards via private message here in the ATARN forum.
Cheers,
Arry
the "T?rckische Cammer" in Dresden has around a dozen of original Turkish and Crimean Tatar bows on display, quite a few of them still strung.
http://www.skd.museum/de/museen-institu ... he-cammer/
The curator, Mr Schuckelt, has been so kind to agree to a special visit by up to five interested ATARNos during which it will be possible to remove some of the bows from their cabinets and give them a closer look.
Mr Schuckelt hopes to gain additional info on the bows in his collection: What type of bow is it, what is special about them? For us, it would be a great occasion to measure and weigh the bows (and ramie strings, where possible) so reproductions would become possible. It is not clear yet if we can take pictures.
Due to organizational reasons stated by the museum, the visit has to be conducted on a Tuesday in June or August.
If you you can contribute to supplying additional info on the bows and would like to participate, please use this doodle form to state your preferred date(s):
http://www.doodle.com/auzpf4p8etfqypz4
When filling out the form, please use your forum nickname so I can contact you afterwards via private message here in the ATARN forum.
Cheers,
Arry
Dear all,
the group is complete, and 13 August it is!
From those who have filled out the Doodle form,
I know
- Uli
- Kyudohund
- Cem
- Fenris
- Daniel
to be knowledgeable about Ottoman-Turkish bows or, in Daniel's case, about arrows. I as organizer of this event claim a potential sixth place.
My apologies to the user who timely entered the Doodle form as "Jan", but such a nickname does not exist on ATARN (at least user search says so) and therefore I cannot assess your credentials. I am very sorry, but due to the restriction of places for this event, I would ask you to contact the T?rckische Cammer via email and organize an individual visit.
Cheers,
Arry
Edit: Could Uli, Kyudohund, Cem and Daniel please supply me via PM with their email address? It would facilitate the further organization of the visit.
the group is complete, and 13 August it is!
From those who have filled out the Doodle form,
I know
- Uli
- Kyudohund
- Cem
- Fenris
- Daniel
to be knowledgeable about Ottoman-Turkish bows or, in Daniel's case, about arrows. I as organizer of this event claim a potential sixth place.
My apologies to the user who timely entered the Doodle form as "Jan", but such a nickname does not exist on ATARN (at least user search says so) and therefore I cannot assess your credentials. I am very sorry, but due to the restriction of places for this event, I would ask you to contact the T?rckische Cammer via email and organize an individual visit.
Cheers,
Arry
Edit: Could Uli, Kyudohund, Cem and Daniel please supply me via PM with their email address? It would facilitate the further organization of the visit.
Herzlichen Dank Jarek!
Peter
Peter
Dem kann ich mich nur anschlie?en und hofffentlich kannst Du es ebenfalls einrichten lang zu kommen :)!
Viele Gr??e
Kevin
Viele Gr??e
Kevin
To all the members of the visit to the turkish chamber in Dresden:
There are now actual considerations of performing a little flightshooting beforhands of the visit in the museum. As I already mentioned in personal e-mails there is an old Russian military airport where the area is very even and there is at least 600 m of open free space. Arrows could be shot and distances could be either measured or tracked with tools like google earth or similar.
I for myself would like to bring 2-3 bows with me that I actual shot quite regular. That is a "Ottoman-Style", 55 lbs at 30''; a 65 lbs at 32'' korean horn bow and a Hwarang with 95 lbs @ 32''.
Uli and Jarek already agreed that they would like to bring there bows along. I am posting this to hear from the other participants :). What do you think?
All the best
Kevin
There are now actual considerations of performing a little flightshooting beforhands of the visit in the museum. As I already mentioned in personal e-mails there is an old Russian military airport where the area is very even and there is at least 600 m of open free space. Arrows could be shot and distances could be either measured or tracked with tools like google earth or similar.
I for myself would like to bring 2-3 bows with me that I actual shot quite regular. That is a "Ottoman-Style", 55 lbs at 30''; a 65 lbs at 32'' korean horn bow and a Hwarang with 95 lbs @ 32''.
Uli and Jarek already agreed that they would like to bring there bows along. I am posting this to hear from the other participants :). What do you think?
All the best
Kevin
.......everywhere i am, my yumi is too.......
Peter
Peter
How very Zen of you 8)
i practice KYUDO, not ZEN 8) .....
board won't let me delete this post....
Kyudo, Iaido, Kenjitsu, Aikido, T'ai chi ch'uan, Shaolin, Pa Qua and more -- all ways to achieve Zen or Ch?n, the meditative state.
You say to-mayo-toe, I say to-mah-toe :wink:
You say to-mayo-toe, I say to-mah-toe :wink:
Good idea:)
I'll have 2-3 bows with me as well as selection of my "oriental" arrows, you're welcome to try them.
I'll have 2-3 bows with me as well as selection of my "oriental" arrows, you're welcome to try them.
Dear all, the visit went on as planned yesterday, on 12 August 2013. The ATARN visitors group consisted of Cem D?nmez, Daniel, Kyudohund/Peter, Jan Sachers, Fenris/Kevin, Uli and myself.
I would like to thank all participants for their valuable input and of course Mr Schuckelt of the Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden for making such a visit possible!
It will take a few days and maybe even weeks to compile the results. Many thanks to Cem for measuring the bows, to Uli for keeping the minutes and to Kevin in advance for calculating the draw-weight estimates.
Of course, we made a lot of pictures. Some of the available bows were truly magnificent. But please be patient; first we will have to ask Mr Schuckelt's permission regarding pictures which we would like to post on ATARN.
As you know one of the most interesting features of the Dresden bows is the fact that quite a few of them are strung. A closer examination of the strings showed that they indeed consist of brownish individual strings (maybe 1,5-2mm) made from plant fibers (Ramie? Linnen?), wrapped with serving along their whole length including the ears. The inner part of the string was visible where the serving was incomplete.
Nearly all the bows had this type of apparently "endless" string, which, according to Cem, corresponds with the design feature of string bridges, and the bows indeed had such string bridges.
As far as we could see, there were only two bows (unfortunately, in the cabinets, so they could not be examined closely) with string knots. But even they had string bridges.
I would like to thank all participants for their valuable input and of course Mr Schuckelt of the Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden for making such a visit possible!
It will take a few days and maybe even weeks to compile the results. Many thanks to Cem for measuring the bows, to Uli for keeping the minutes and to Kevin in advance for calculating the draw-weight estimates.
Of course, we made a lot of pictures. Some of the available bows were truly magnificent. But please be patient; first we will have to ask Mr Schuckelt's permission regarding pictures which we would like to post on ATARN.
As you know one of the most interesting features of the Dresden bows is the fact that quite a few of them are strung. A closer examination of the strings showed that they indeed consist of brownish individual strings (maybe 1,5-2mm) made from plant fibers (Ramie? Linnen?), wrapped with serving along their whole length including the ears. The inner part of the string was visible where the serving was incomplete.
Nearly all the bows had this type of apparently "endless" string, which, according to Cem, corresponds with the design feature of string bridges, and the bows indeed had such string bridges.
As far as we could see, there were only two bows (unfortunately, in the cabinets, so they could not be examined closely) with string knots. But even they had string bridges.
Fantastic! This would be worthy of an article/report in the Journal of the Society of Archer Antiquaries...:) (also, I'm quite excited to hear that measurements were taken :D )
Would you say that the strings seemed to be authentic, or could it be that they were made some time ago by the museum to display the bows strung? Did they show signs of use?
Would you say that the strings seemed to be authentic, or could it be that they were made some time ago by the museum to display the bows strung? Did they show signs of use?
Thanks Jarek and Cem for checking on the strings. Looking forward to the pictures and the measuremens.
Adam
Adam
Thank you for your iniciative and organization Jarek,
its probably no exaggeration to say have we have met the best preserved strung ottoman and tatar bows in the world live.. with Turkey's best bowyer and two arrow specialists in our rows.
:wink: Uli
its probably no exaggeration to say have we have met the best preserved strung ottoman and tatar bows in the world live.. with Turkey's best bowyer and two arrow specialists in our rows.
:wink: Uli
Many thanks to all of You, particularly Jarek who organized whole event and to Mr. Schuckelt who made it possible.
Now, I've collected some data on arrows. It will take a while to organize it but I have some quite interesting info already.
There are some 250+ arrows in the Museum, large portion of them in a very good condition and most of them on display.
I've closely examined four arrows witch represent what is available to visitors and had a good look on some 100+ arrows from the depot (not available for public view)
There are two main groups of Ottoman arrows in the Museum: longer, around 28" total length (would yield just over 26" draw) equipped with small broadheads, richly decorated, some with ivory nocks (baspare) and long (up to 6") low profile feathers.
Second group are what I believe to be target "puta" arrows - 24-25" long, equipped with small, steel target points.
There are also few groups of Tartar arrows. To me looks like they might have been manufactured in several different workshops as all of the arrows from each group are very much alike.
All of the Tartar arrows are quite long, between 32-34" total, that would yield max draw length of 30-32.5", made out of (most probably) poplar, barreled, nocks are cut directly in the shaft and very wide - up to 5.5mm. The arrows are equipped with war heads (classic triangle, bodkin and leaf shape) and long (up to 7") feathers, 4 fletch.
Majority of the arrows in the Museum are very straight, feathers are intact, very few show signs of rust on heads.
I have also seen two war arrows of typical Ottoman style made of cane or bamboo.
Now, I've collected some data on arrows. It will take a while to organize it but I have some quite interesting info already.
There are some 250+ arrows in the Museum, large portion of them in a very good condition and most of them on display.
I've closely examined four arrows witch represent what is available to visitors and had a good look on some 100+ arrows from the depot (not available for public view)
There are two main groups of Ottoman arrows in the Museum: longer, around 28" total length (would yield just over 26" draw) equipped with small broadheads, richly decorated, some with ivory nocks (baspare) and long (up to 6") low profile feathers.
Second group are what I believe to be target "puta" arrows - 24-25" long, equipped with small, steel target points.
There are also few groups of Tartar arrows. To me looks like they might have been manufactured in several different workshops as all of the arrows from each group are very much alike.
All of the Tartar arrows are quite long, between 32-34" total, that would yield max draw length of 30-32.5", made out of (most probably) poplar, barreled, nocks are cut directly in the shaft and very wide - up to 5.5mm. The arrows are equipped with war heads (classic triangle, bodkin and leaf shape) and long (up to 7") feathers, 4 fletch.
Majority of the arrows in the Museum are very straight, feathers are intact, very few show signs of rust on heads.
I have also seen two war arrows of typical Ottoman style made of cane or bamboo.
Daniel,
On the Turkish arrows with broadheads, what was the orientation of the blades to the nock?
On the Turkish arrows with broadheads, what was the orientation of the blades to the nock?
That is very interesting actually - on Tartar arrows witch, in general seem to be very uniform in terms of length of the shaft, length of the feathers, orientation of the feathers in relation to the nock grove etc blades are in line with the string notch. Allthought there are few exceptions - I can only assume that those very few arrows (not available for public) would have had their heads reattached without paying attention to the original set up.
Orientation of the blades in relation to the nock grove on Ottoman arrows is quite random - I've seen some lined up, some were not - even the nock grove isn't always perpendicular to the grain direction and the growth rings of the shaft. That is the especially the case for the arrows equipped with ivory nocks.
I've collected precise measurements (including diameter of the shafts in 2" increments, balance point, geometry of the nocks, feathers set up etc) of four shafts representing four main grups of arrows in the Museum.
Orientation of the blades in relation to the nock grove on Ottoman arrows is quite random - I've seen some lined up, some were not - even the nock grove isn't always perpendicular to the grain direction and the growth rings of the shaft. That is the especially the case for the arrows equipped with ivory nocks.
I've collected precise measurements (including diameter of the shafts in 2" increments, balance point, geometry of the nocks, feathers set up etc) of four shafts representing four main grups of arrows in the Museum.
Just flipped through the photos of the main exposition and looks like majority of the Ottoman arrows have their blades oriented vertically, that is in line with the string notch.
I am curious whether any of the shorter arrows with small broad heads had a horizontal orientation. Vertically oriented broad heads can be drawn until the base of the head is in line with the belly of the bow. The rear of the arrow head is not sharpened in this case. Rearward facing barbs are not used either since they would interfere with the draw. I think that barbs on Asian arrows were phased out as early as the introduction of the closed quiver since they are hazardous to the archer. Later with the use of open quivers, barbs could hook onto other arrows and spill them from the quiver.
Daniel, is it possible that you post a selection of your best photos here? I'm very interested in the arrows, especially the nocks and fletching.
I can give you standards obtained from measurement but not the pictures - that is not yet.