Do miniatures say the truth about for an Ottoman Bow?
Do miniatures say the truth?..,can we capture the reality directly for an Ottoman bow?'I've written an article with proofs and you can read it from,
http://www.ottomanturkishbows.com/
Best regards,
Mehmet A.G?lhan/Bowyer/Researcher
http://www.ottomanturkishbows.com/
Best regards,
Mehmet A.G?lhan/Bowyer/Researcher
Miniatures, particularly Ottoman ones, had a lot of conventions in their depictions of figures and equipment. While art historians often distinguish Ottoman art from Persian (Safavid) art because of its more "realistic" depictions, in reality Ottoman painting was more topographic in its landscapes so that cities were more accurately shown. Its figural representations are actually very conventional. This can be seen in the use of pounces (traced figures that are used to reproduce standard characters) which are regularly transposed from left to right so that people are seen wearing their quivers on the left and their swords on the right.
Therefore it would be unsafe to deduce brace heights and bowstring lengths from paintings, particularly when surviving bows exist with their strings,
Therefore it would be unsafe to deduce brace heights and bowstring lengths from paintings, particularly when surviving bows exist with their strings,
It isn't important this transposed weapons in this issue.Ottoman miniatures were very sensitive on ornaments,weapon details especially of the sultan's.
Look at to the sultan's sword or other other body proportions...,it is like a photo.And look at this another miniature about the bow' brace height.It is similar like the sultans,isn't it?.
I've supported and proved the ottoman bow's extra brace height fact (This miniatures show the real shape of the ottoman bows with their heigher brace heights unlike nowaday's.) by old ottoman writings as i wrote in my article but i had suspected and found the difference directly from sultan's bow in the miniature firstly.
Look at to the sultan's sword or other other body proportions...,it is like a photo.And look at this another miniature about the bow' brace height.It is similar like the sultans,isn't it?.
I've supported and proved the ottoman bow's extra brace height fact (This miniatures show the real shape of the ottoman bows with their heigher brace heights unlike nowaday's.) by old ottoman writings as i wrote in my article but i had suspected and found the difference directly from sultan's bow in the miniature firstly.
Golhan, I am afraid the matter is far from settled. I have noticed the discrepancy between the measurements of (silk) strings and the bows, and acually found this to be the case when in the museum myself. What happens is that a careful researcher measures the string by placing it straight on a table together with a scale. The measurement is not that of a string on a bow, but a loose, unstretched string. If the same measurements is done on a string stretched tightly by hand, one can expect 3+cm more, and, as I tested myself, once the silk string is put on the bow it will stretch by another 3-5cm, especially so on the usual 80+lb bows we are dealing with. So, the measurements we have are not the true length of the strings.
The higher brace has its advantages, but not in the cast or the performance of bows. The bows will gain no more than a few pounds in weight, but the stress on the limbs (and the string follow) will be greater for less reflex. The bow will have a shorter power stroke for less energy gained and the stacking will be greater, since the lift-off point of string loops from the tips will happen earlier in the draw. The bow will act as shorter bow with the shorter string.
The bow will be more forgiving in shooting arrows of varied spine, which may be thought to be an advantage for target shooting, especially from closer distances. The bow will indeed be more stable, but this would be a gain for a bowyer, who does not care about performance and I suspect a good archer would be hard to fool.
Your theory is interesting and certainly worth looking into, but I woud like to see more experimentation and reasearch to prove the point.
Adam
The higher brace has its advantages, but not in the cast or the performance of bows. The bows will gain no more than a few pounds in weight, but the stress on the limbs (and the string follow) will be greater for less reflex. The bow will have a shorter power stroke for less energy gained and the stacking will be greater, since the lift-off point of string loops from the tips will happen earlier in the draw. The bow will act as shorter bow with the shorter string.
The bow will be more forgiving in shooting arrows of varied spine, which may be thought to be an advantage for target shooting, especially from closer distances. The bow will indeed be more stable, but this would be a gain for a bowyer, who does not care about performance and I suspect a good archer would be hard to fool.
Your theory is interesting and certainly worth looking into, but I woud like to see more experimentation and reasearch to prove the point.
Adam
Thanks for your nice view Mr.Adam,
as you know,some difficulties such as 'stress on the limbs' or 'less reflex' can not change the facts,reality.Okay..,the silk strings may be have more strech value.But there is very high bow string lenght differencies between the'' ottoman bow string calculation methot '' results even with measured & listed ottoman bow strings by Turkish researcher ?nsal Y?cel, especially.
This measurings had captured by himself from stored bows together with their original strings in the Topkapi Palace Museum Collection as specified in his ''T?rk Ok?uluğu'' (Turkish archery) book.So,this measurings are the main and solid proof beside the sultans bow as in the miniature(I know,we can not accept this miniature as a proof seriously but it was the 'spark point' of this topic and worked :)
Some of these measurings,
114 cm.(44,88'')Bow lenght(nxn)--------88cm.(34,64'')Bow String Lenght
106cm(41,73'').----------------------------85cm.(33,46'')
If you want to make a bow string for a 114cm.(Nxn) bow..,you have to make about ~102 cm.(40,16'') bow string for todays standard if you want to get ~20cm.(8'') brace height .
But,if we make a string by using 'ottoman bow string calculation method'(this mathematical method has explained in my article and in the ?nsal Y?cel's book and Mustafa Kani's Telhis-i Resailat-iRumat of course)..,you find 95,79cm.(37,71'') bow string lenght.So,
102,00 cm.(40,16'') bow string lenght for todays (for 114cm.nxn bow)
~ 95.70 cm.(37,71'') '' '' '' for the Ottomans standard
----------
6,30 cm. (2,48'') difference as an ottoman standard firstly.But..,this is very interesting.,you can find more differencies in the ?nsal Y?cel's original measurings;at the total,
102cm.(todays standard) b.string-88cm ?nsal Y?cel's measuring.=14cm.(5,51'') string difference for an Ottoman 114cm.nxn bow
The silk string can not be streched to this value.So,this 14cm.(5,51'') value is the reason of why i wrote as,
'' This miniatures show the real shape of the ottoman bows with their higher brace heights unlike nowaday's.'' in my article.
Mehmet A.G?lhan
as you know,some difficulties such as 'stress on the limbs' or 'less reflex' can not change the facts,reality.Okay..,the silk strings may be have more strech value.But there is very high bow string lenght differencies between the'' ottoman bow string calculation methot '' results even with measured & listed ottoman bow strings by Turkish researcher ?nsal Y?cel, especially.
This measurings had captured by himself from stored bows together with their original strings in the Topkapi Palace Museum Collection as specified in his ''T?rk Ok?uluğu'' (Turkish archery) book.So,this measurings are the main and solid proof beside the sultans bow as in the miniature(I know,we can not accept this miniature as a proof seriously but it was the 'spark point' of this topic and worked :)
Some of these measurings,
114 cm.(44,88'')Bow lenght(nxn)--------88cm.(34,64'')Bow String Lenght
106cm(41,73'').----------------------------85cm.(33,46'')
If you want to make a bow string for a 114cm.(Nxn) bow..,you have to make about ~102 cm.(40,16'') bow string for todays standard if you want to get ~20cm.(8'') brace height .
But,if we make a string by using 'ottoman bow string calculation method'(this mathematical method has explained in my article and in the ?nsal Y?cel's book and Mustafa Kani's Telhis-i Resailat-iRumat of course)..,you find 95,79cm.(37,71'') bow string lenght.So,
102,00 cm.(40,16'') bow string lenght for todays (for 114cm.nxn bow)
~ 95.70 cm.(37,71'') '' '' '' for the Ottomans standard
----------
6,30 cm. (2,48'') difference as an ottoman standard firstly.But..,this is very interesting.,you can find more differencies in the ?nsal Y?cel's original measurings;at the total,
102cm.(todays standard) b.string-88cm ?nsal Y?cel's measuring.=14cm.(5,51'') string difference for an Ottoman 114cm.nxn bow
The silk string can not be streched to this value.So,this 14cm.(5,51'') value is the reason of why i wrote as,
'' This miniatures show the real shape of the ottoman bows with their higher brace heights unlike nowaday's.'' in my article.
Mehmet A.G?lhan
Yes, it seems the original calculations may be about right for an unstretched, fresh silk string, which would then stretch on the bow for the "modern" brace. This modern brace height is incidentally pretty close to what we see on old photographs with the Okspor members and Okyay.
I suspect some of the measured strings did not in fact belonged to the bows in the museum - could have easily been switched during the many years in storage.
To continue with your hypothesis, I suggest you make a 114 cm bow, put a 88cm string on it and see what happens?
Adam
I suspect some of the measured strings did not in fact belonged to the bows in the museum - could have easily been switched during the many years in storage.
To continue with your hypothesis, I suggest you make a 114 cm bow, put a 88cm string on it and see what happens?
Adam
Adam's point about the switching of strings in museums should be thought about. It is well known that the sultan's clothes from the tombs were mixed up and several pieces thought to belong to early sultans have turned out to be much more recent. Museums are not perfect and the longer they last the more things can go wrong. The mix up with the costumes happened after a fire.
Regarding my point about the reversed images, I think you may have overlooked what I was describing. The paintings were not drawn from life, but were assembled from various figure studies copied from earlier works and adjusted to reflect contemporary costumes. The Moghuls and the Turks used a system inherited from Iran which was more related to Photoshop than taking photographs. Swords are even more problematic than bows since the shape of the tips, general proportions and handle dimensions are often very different from dated swords of the period. Look also at the proportions of the figures. Aside from caricatures of foreigners or deformed people, most are stock figures dressed up for the part. Their anatomies are not drawn to relative scale; for example, sometimes the arms or legs will be too short.
One of the great innovations of Ottoman painting, compared to its Iranian predecessor and contemporary, is the introduction of topographic landscapes which are particularly clear in cityscapes where prominent features are recorded. However, figural painting was conventional aside from the portraits of the sultans.
The Ottoman string that I bought with my Mehmet Husseyn bow was as Adam described, shorter when stretch out than when I measured it under tension. Unfortunately there is a knot in the core so I do not know its full length. Due to the nature of silk strings (they tie themselves in knots at the least opportunity), I do not know if it was a deliberate shortening of the string by the archer or an accident of storage.
Regarding my point about the reversed images, I think you may have overlooked what I was describing. The paintings were not drawn from life, but were assembled from various figure studies copied from earlier works and adjusted to reflect contemporary costumes. The Moghuls and the Turks used a system inherited from Iran which was more related to Photoshop than taking photographs. Swords are even more problematic than bows since the shape of the tips, general proportions and handle dimensions are often very different from dated swords of the period. Look also at the proportions of the figures. Aside from caricatures of foreigners or deformed people, most are stock figures dressed up for the part. Their anatomies are not drawn to relative scale; for example, sometimes the arms or legs will be too short.
One of the great innovations of Ottoman painting, compared to its Iranian predecessor and contemporary, is the introduction of topographic landscapes which are particularly clear in cityscapes where prominent features are recorded. However, figural painting was conventional aside from the portraits of the sultans.
The Ottoman string that I bought with my Mehmet Husseyn bow was as Adam described, shorter when stretch out than when I measured it under tension. Unfortunately there is a knot in the core so I do not know its full length. Due to the nature of silk strings (they tie themselves in knots at the least opportunity), I do not know if it was a deliberate shortening of the string by the archer or an accident of storage.
When they want to increase this brace height,the Ottomans did not prefer the twisting to the knotting their bow string.. never,because ;twisting the string may twist the all tips of the bow unluckily.I f there are 2 knots on the original string and at the each section especially(symmetrical) ..,you can believe the knots are real.(You can see this type of knotted strings in our museums or collections and i think,this knots can be made for seeking to catch perfect string lenght due to what they desired like described in my article with this shortening)
And bow string...,Switched or changed strings..?.., this is funny and also impossible with this list.Here is the all other bows and their original strings protected together in the museum collection.Lets examine the list.
126cm Bow nxn----------------99cm. Bow string
114cm.--------------------------88cm.
112cm.--------------------------88cm.
111cm.--------------------------88cm.
110cm.--------------------------87cm.
108cm.--------------------------88cm.
106cm---------------------------85cm.
And switch-mix all of them.What's happened?...,can you use 85cm. bow string for this 126cm bow..?
No ! , or for 88cm string ?
No ' These are very close bows with each other and after this 126cm.bow especially..,nothing can change in eventually ,indeed..,impossible !.
Which bow string can be changed? okay change it..,you're free.
Additionally,
i've been testing one of my synthetic ottoman bow(113,5cm.NxN)with a 94 cm bow string.In fact,it is 1 cm.shorter than the ''Ottoman Calculation method'' result.Everything is excellent for now and i'll increase the brace height more later.we can get more success by an organic bow,i think.
Gentlemen,this is a true brace height fixation for the Ottoman Bows and you can belive this sultan's miniature with peace of mind.
Thanks,
Mehmet A.G?lhan
And bow string...,Switched or changed strings..?.., this is funny and also impossible with this list.Here is the all other bows and their original strings protected together in the museum collection.Lets examine the list.
126cm Bow nxn----------------99cm. Bow string
114cm.--------------------------88cm.
112cm.--------------------------88cm.
111cm.--------------------------88cm.
110cm.--------------------------87cm.
108cm.--------------------------88cm.
106cm---------------------------85cm.
And switch-mix all of them.What's happened?...,can you use 85cm. bow string for this 126cm bow..?
No ! , or for 88cm string ?
No ' These are very close bows with each other and after this 126cm.bow especially..,nothing can change in eventually ,indeed..,impossible !.
Which bow string can be changed? okay change it..,you're free.
Additionally,
i've been testing one of my synthetic ottoman bow(113,5cm.NxN)with a 94 cm bow string.In fact,it is 1 cm.shorter than the ''Ottoman Calculation method'' result.Everything is excellent for now and i'll increase the brace height more later.we can get more success by an organic bow,i think.
Gentlemen,this is a true brace height fixation for the Ottoman Bows and you can belive this sultan's miniature with peace of mind.
Thanks,
Mehmet A.G?lhan
What do you think about this new finding now?.I know,this is very surprising and in fact,very important actually.So,this finding'll create other researches. :)
I am sorry if have not been clear. For your (interesting for me) hypothesis to become "truth", you need to prove it.
There are two issues as I see it.
1 - you believe bows with short strings perform better. To prove it, you need to test bows with strings of different length. Shoot through a chrono and see what happens. Re-check with strings made of silk.
2 - silk strings do stretch on bows, especially so on heavy bows, so the length as given by Yucel may not represent reality. Go to the museum and look at the bows with strings as per Yucel. Check the dimensions of the bows and estimate the tiller shape and the draw weight. Make silk string to follow the originals, put them on bows of similar weight and tiller and measure your brace height.
Once done, please report the results. As far as I know, no one researched the Ottoman strings and your study will be very useful.
Adam
There are two issues as I see it.
1 - you believe bows with short strings perform better. To prove it, you need to test bows with strings of different length. Shoot through a chrono and see what happens. Re-check with strings made of silk.
2 - silk strings do stretch on bows, especially so on heavy bows, so the length as given by Yucel may not represent reality. Go to the museum and look at the bows with strings as per Yucel. Check the dimensions of the bows and estimate the tiller shape and the draw weight. Make silk string to follow the originals, put them on bows of similar weight and tiller and measure your brace height.
Once done, please report the results. As far as I know, no one researched the Ottoman strings and your study will be very useful.
Adam
Proof is very simple as i said before;we don't have to make these tests and need to look so far.Truth is very close to us.It is,
the silk string can not be stretched to this values even with a heavier bow just like you said.14-15 cm.is very very high distance for streching it .if you don't use a rubber string...,it is impossible.So,if you can choose the shortest path;it is the best way.
But if you can stretch the silk string to this 14-15 cm. values..,i'll believe to you and i'm asking now.,
Can you stretch it to 15cm.?.....
The answer is No !...so,why are these tests? these are very very long and unnecessary for the truth but acceptable for the new researches by the truth of course.
1)Yes,i believe,the short string may be have some advantages and disadvantages but connected with your archery needs.Forexample,a bow with high braced bows have less arrow speed but more forgiving about the releasing mistakes and more accurately.Long strings can give more speed to arrows.But we can not capture any thing abouth the main subject with these test ways.
We can not accept these test results as a proof but we can get and see only some gains or losses abouth using a short or long string and with silk string,thats all.And i have to ask..,where is the truth-reality of the Ottoman bow strings? But these results would be only the last fruits of this truth tree.
2)Yes,string stretches on the bows and more relevant with their draw weight;you're right but if you use the original string for a measured old bow;you can not obtain this 7-8 inches Brace height.You can catch 24-25 cm(9 to 10 inches) as out of the standards.Because this is an Ottoman style and even over the Ottoman calculation standard .
Finally,
I've explained this truth with many strong proofs as a only way to prove..,
1)Ottoman bow string calculation method(From M.Kani's and ?nsal Y?cel's book)
2)Original bows and their strings with the measurings(Nice research from ?nsal Y?cel)
3)Journey towards to the shorter strings (my Fixing from ?nsal Y?cel's research)
4)Finally,miniatures;yes,the spark point.(You can see every where)
So,i don't need & want to go towards number....10 for accepting and understanding the truth by the archery world.
But this finding may cause some new additional researches such as Fd curves beside the chrono tests.
Thanks for this nice discussion,
M.A.G?lhan/Bowyer/Researcher
the silk string can not be stretched to this values even with a heavier bow just like you said.14-15 cm.is very very high distance for streching it .if you don't use a rubber string...,it is impossible.So,if you can choose the shortest path;it is the best way.
But if you can stretch the silk string to this 14-15 cm. values..,i'll believe to you and i'm asking now.,
Can you stretch it to 15cm.?.....
The answer is No !...so,why are these tests? these are very very long and unnecessary for the truth but acceptable for the new researches by the truth of course.
1)Yes,i believe,the short string may be have some advantages and disadvantages but connected with your archery needs.Forexample,a bow with high braced bows have less arrow speed but more forgiving about the releasing mistakes and more accurately.Long strings can give more speed to arrows.But we can not capture any thing abouth the main subject with these test ways.
We can not accept these test results as a proof but we can get and see only some gains or losses abouth using a short or long string and with silk string,thats all.And i have to ask..,where is the truth-reality of the Ottoman bow strings? But these results would be only the last fruits of this truth tree.
2)Yes,string stretches on the bows and more relevant with their draw weight;you're right but if you use the original string for a measured old bow;you can not obtain this 7-8 inches Brace height.You can catch 24-25 cm(9 to 10 inches) as out of the standards.Because this is an Ottoman style and even over the Ottoman calculation standard .
Finally,
I've explained this truth with many strong proofs as a only way to prove..,
1)Ottoman bow string calculation method(From M.Kani's and ?nsal Y?cel's book)
2)Original bows and their strings with the measurings(Nice research from ?nsal Y?cel)
3)Journey towards to the shorter strings (my Fixing from ?nsal Y?cel's research)
4)Finally,miniatures;yes,the spark point.(You can see every where)
So,i don't need & want to go towards number....10 for accepting and understanding the truth by the archery world.
But this finding may cause some new additional researches such as Fd curves beside the chrono tests.
Thanks for this nice discussion,
M.A.G?lhan/Bowyer/Researcher
Finally,
This is the additional fifth and sixth proofs,I'm afraid,its going to 10 :)
5'th Proof: i've found some nice informations from the 'Traditional Bowyers Bible Volume2'.There are very good informations on page 213,String Stretch section and this information is also very interesting.
The silk string streching value must be more,even more over the dacron for your claim and the test necessity.But it is impossible as you can see at below,sorry.
Fast flight stretches about 1,5 %
Linen 2,0 %
Sılk 4,0 %
Dacron 4,0 %
Sılk has the same stretch value with the Dacron.You can stretch the silk string as same as dacron max. 3,52 cm. for a 88cm.bow string.Everyting is equal.
6'th Proof:?nsal Y?cel had said as these bows are stored with theirs original strings and Mr.Adam had talked about the changed or mixed string.
If we think about on this low possibilty;we have to find a bow for one of these measured bow strings,okay..? for example,for 85 cm. bow string..,
You have to use 102-103cm. bow string if you want to catch this 7-8 inches brace height on a 115cm.NxN bow for todays standard.So,from this way,
We must use and find a 95cm.NxN bow for our this alone 85cm.string.This is very very short bow.Standard bow lenght is 110-120cm.for the ottoman bows and even a 100-107cm.NxN bows can be only in the below 1% of the total bows.
So,i hope these are enough to believe this Ottoman Bow String Fact,Truth now.
Sincerely,
M.A.G?lhan/Bowyer/Researcher
This is the additional fifth and sixth proofs,I'm afraid,its going to 10 :)
5'th Proof: i've found some nice informations from the 'Traditional Bowyers Bible Volume2'.There are very good informations on page 213,String Stretch section and this information is also very interesting.
The silk string streching value must be more,even more over the dacron for your claim and the test necessity.But it is impossible as you can see at below,sorry.
Fast flight stretches about 1,5 %
Linen 2,0 %
Sılk 4,0 %
Dacron 4,0 %
Sılk has the same stretch value with the Dacron.You can stretch the silk string as same as dacron max. 3,52 cm. for a 88cm.bow string.Everyting is equal.
6'th Proof:?nsal Y?cel had said as these bows are stored with theirs original strings and Mr.Adam had talked about the changed or mixed string.
If we think about on this low possibilty;we have to find a bow for one of these measured bow strings,okay..? for example,for 85 cm. bow string..,
You have to use 102-103cm. bow string if you want to catch this 7-8 inches brace height on a 115cm.NxN bow for todays standard.So,from this way,
We must use and find a 95cm.NxN bow for our this alone 85cm.string.This is very very short bow.Standard bow lenght is 110-120cm.for the ottoman bows and even a 100-107cm.NxN bows can be only in the below 1% of the total bows.
So,i hope these are enough to believe this Ottoman Bow String Fact,Truth now.
Sincerely,
M.A.G?lhan/Bowyer/Researcher