Testing a modern Korean bow at a flight archery tournament
Due to a change in rules, this year we had an opportunity to shoot an off-the-shelf, modern materials, Korean traditional bow. Because the new category was a surprise to some of us, we did not have the required bows and to compete, we relied on the generosity of Jaap Koppedrayer, who lent a Kaya bow to several archers.
As a result we have comparative distances of a single bow shot by several archers using multiple styles. Different length arrows were used as well as shooting with an arrow guide. There was another Korean bow present, twenty pounds lighter, but shot with longer arrows.
Fred Lueck, Justin Ma, Jie Tian and I shot the Kaya bow and Carla Lueck shot the lighter bow.
What we discovered was that with the same bow, draw length was the most important criterion. The longer the draw, the further the arrow went. Fred shot with three fingers at first and then changed to a thumb ring for his sixth shot. That shot went much farther than the previous five. Photos suggest that there was less oscillation in the arrows when shot with a thumb ring reducing the initial drag.
The bow was also shot with an arrow guide with fourteen inch arrows improvised from some arrows I had brought to practise with a regular flight bow. Two of the arrows were unfletched and had bulky plastic nocks. I did not anticipate the guide arrows would perform much better than regular arrows because of the potential for them to lose energy faster because of their low mass. I was wrong; the guide arrows performed much better than expected and the unfletched arrows performed best of all.
The weighing of the bow was accomplished with each competitor's longest arrow. Each person had the bow at a different weight ranging from 42 lb up to almost 50 lb. This put it into the 50 lb range. Those people with the longer draws and slightly higher poundage shot farther. Fred was outside this range because of his very long draw. The type of arrow seem not to be so important. Carbon, Hexshaft and bamboo were used. Without having weighed the arrows, I cannot say what the precise relationships were. However, carbon was probably the lightest, bamboo next, and then Hexshaft.
It is my conclusion that the length of draw is critical. The effect this has on available energy is important. When I look at the result with the arrow guide, the performance of the unfletched shafts suggest that arrows leave the guide much more in line with the direction of the string travel than I had previously thought.
The method of measuring flight distances, perpendicular to the flight line where the archers stand, is somewhat misleading in that two arrows may be only 30 cm apart in the perpendicular but may be several meters apart horizontally. However, on the whole most arrows from each archer fell reasonably close to each other despite the distances involved.
As a result we have comparative distances of a single bow shot by several archers using multiple styles. Different length arrows were used as well as shooting with an arrow guide. There was another Korean bow present, twenty pounds lighter, but shot with longer arrows.
Fred Lueck, Justin Ma, Jie Tian and I shot the Kaya bow and Carla Lueck shot the lighter bow.
What we discovered was that with the same bow, draw length was the most important criterion. The longer the draw, the further the arrow went. Fred shot with three fingers at first and then changed to a thumb ring for his sixth shot. That shot went much farther than the previous five. Photos suggest that there was less oscillation in the arrows when shot with a thumb ring reducing the initial drag.
The bow was also shot with an arrow guide with fourteen inch arrows improvised from some arrows I had brought to practise with a regular flight bow. Two of the arrows were unfletched and had bulky plastic nocks. I did not anticipate the guide arrows would perform much better than regular arrows because of the potential for them to lose energy faster because of their low mass. I was wrong; the guide arrows performed much better than expected and the unfletched arrows performed best of all.
The weighing of the bow was accomplished with each competitor's longest arrow. Each person had the bow at a different weight ranging from 42 lb up to almost 50 lb. This put it into the 50 lb range. Those people with the longer draws and slightly higher poundage shot farther. Fred was outside this range because of his very long draw. The type of arrow seem not to be so important. Carbon, Hexshaft and bamboo were used. Without having weighed the arrows, I cannot say what the precise relationships were. However, carbon was probably the lightest, bamboo next, and then Hexshaft.
It is my conclusion that the length of draw is critical. The effect this has on available energy is important. When I look at the result with the arrow guide, the performance of the unfletched shafts suggest that arrows leave the guide much more in line with the direction of the string travel than I had previously thought.
The method of measuring flight distances, perpendicular to the flight line where the archers stand, is somewhat misleading in that two arrows may be only 30 cm apart in the perpendicular but may be several meters apart horizontally. However, on the whole most arrows from each archer fell reasonably close to each other despite the distances involved.
Sounds like great fun 8)
What you found is very much in line with what we have concluded here too. The bow really needs to be maxed out fully to get proper performance. Another inch of draw will translate into surprising numbers of extra meters. I think this is especially true for bows with very fast dry-loose-speed, shot with very light weight arrows.
The overdraw results was pretty surprising, though. There was almost a 100 meters difference between the regular and the overdraw shots, right?
What you found is very much in line with what we have concluded here too. The bow really needs to be maxed out fully to get proper performance. Another inch of draw will translate into surprising numbers of extra meters. I think this is especially true for bows with very fast dry-loose-speed, shot with very light weight arrows.
The overdraw results was pretty surprising, though. There was almost a 100 meters difference between the regular and the overdraw shots, right?
very interesting analysis
In feet the difference between the arrow guide and the nearest long arrow was about 400 feet. The short arrows were roughly 190 grain in weight and 6.35 mm at the point, 5.43 mm in the shaft and 7.6 mm at the nock. The bulbous point and nock may have affected the airflow. The nearest long arrow was shot by Justin Ma. The difference between my nearest long arrow shot the next day was even more.
I am going to test the short arrows on a chronograph this weekend. The problem is I will be using one of my bows which is stronger than the Kaya bow at the flight tournament. I have another bow of slightly different geometry that is closer in weight and I will compare the two.
I have shot a similar distance before with an arrow guide but using a thicker, heavier string and much heavier short arrows. However there were tens on meters difference in the distances.
I am going to test the short arrows on a chronograph this weekend. The problem is I will be using one of my bows which is stronger than the Kaya bow at the flight tournament. I have another bow of slightly different geometry that is closer in weight and I will compare the two.
I have shot a similar distance before with an arrow guide but using a thicker, heavier string and much heavier short arrows. However there were tens on meters difference in the distances.
Very interesting. Any updates on this?
I was with Thomas Duvarney at Denton Ski in Pa. for the Archery Rendezvous back in 1998 I think. It was on the setup day, wed, and Thomas and I were shooting his production bows, two of his 55# bows. I was shooting my regular 400+ grain target arrows, and Thomas was shooting similar, we had been shooting at a 3D moose target about 150 yards up the hill side below the skilift and dropping the arrows in on it very well. So we got interested in how far these little bows would shoot ! We both shifted towards a bear target another 50 yards further up the hill and again we were getting arrows right up to it. By then we really started getting interested, Thomas said he'd never really tried them on a long distance shot before. He got out a small carbon arrow, just over 20" and put it on an over draw and aimed at the bear target we had been shooting at.
We both watched , stunned, as the arrow sailed over the top of the hill right beside the skilift ! Until that time we hadnt noticed some workers up at the top of the hill, which really scared us, and them too as the arrow soared up and over. Later the arrow was found by one of them and the range was over 540 yards !
I have had a LOT of respect for these bows ever since.
I bought one right then.
Thomas told me the next day that the mgr requested that we didnt shoot up by the skilift anymore. He was kind of sheepish about it when he told me. We both laughed, but it was a helluva lesson on not underestimating the power of any bows. :oops:
He told the mgr that we were given the okay to use the 3D range, and we honestly didnt see any workers up the slope when we were shooting, they apparently had been working along under the lift path and moved into sight just as he had fired.
I was with Thomas Duvarney at Denton Ski in Pa. for the Archery Rendezvous back in 1998 I think. It was on the setup day, wed, and Thomas and I were shooting his production bows, two of his 55# bows. I was shooting my regular 400+ grain target arrows, and Thomas was shooting similar, we had been shooting at a 3D moose target about 150 yards up the hill side below the skilift and dropping the arrows in on it very well. So we got interested in how far these little bows would shoot ! We both shifted towards a bear target another 50 yards further up the hill and again we were getting arrows right up to it. By then we really started getting interested, Thomas said he'd never really tried them on a long distance shot before. He got out a small carbon arrow, just over 20" and put it on an over draw and aimed at the bear target we had been shooting at.
We both watched , stunned, as the arrow sailed over the top of the hill right beside the skilift ! Until that time we hadnt noticed some workers up at the top of the hill, which really scared us, and them too as the arrow soared up and over. Later the arrow was found by one of them and the range was over 540 yards !
I have had a LOT of respect for these bows ever since.
I bought one right then.
Thomas told me the next day that the mgr requested that we didnt shoot up by the skilift anymore. He was kind of sheepish about it when he told me. We both laughed, but it was a helluva lesson on not underestimating the power of any bows. :oops:
He told the mgr that we were given the okay to use the 3D range, and we honestly didnt see any workers up the slope when we were shooting, they apparently had been working along under the lift path and moved into sight just as he had fired.
This is a real problem with flight shooting. You always have to make sure you have a large safe landing area. It is best to overestimate by at least a factor of three. Strange wind conditions at heights you cannot see can carry an arrow much farther than you would think.
The other thing you need is a flat measurable piece of land. Even in practice, hilly ground can completely fool you. Two successive arrows may look as though they went different distances when in fact the land fell away and gave a false impression.
The other thing you need is a flat measurable piece of land. Even in practice, hilly ground can completely fool you. Two successive arrows may look as though they went different distances when in fact the land fell away and gave a false impression.
You are right on all counts.
It was an object lesson for both of us. The goal wasnt to shoot over the hill but past the moose 3D up the hill. It sure went past. There very well could have been a wind assist. Very plausible. But it was also a light carbon flight arrow.
Thomas's little reproductions do shoot hard and fast. I have taken two whitetails with mine. One right on through and one almost through.With a Zwickey broadhead.
I only have one area here where I could flight shoot, maybe, an abandoned sand quary. We rifle shoot there now at 400 yards. I think could reach out to around 500 yards, but its something that has to be checked out closer.
Where the flight shoots are held in Utah are near optimal , no people or other things not to hit, I wouild dearly love to go out there for the event. Hopefully it can be.
It was an object lesson for both of us. The goal wasnt to shoot over the hill but past the moose 3D up the hill. It sure went past. There very well could have been a wind assist. Very plausible. But it was also a light carbon flight arrow.
Thomas's little reproductions do shoot hard and fast. I have taken two whitetails with mine. One right on through and one almost through.With a Zwickey broadhead.
I only have one area here where I could flight shoot, maybe, an abandoned sand quary. We rifle shoot there now at 400 yards. I think could reach out to around 500 yards, but its something that has to be checked out closer.
Where the flight shoots are held in Utah are near optimal , no people or other things not to hit, I wouild dearly love to go out there for the event. Hopefully it can be.
There are two advantages of shooting at the flight archery tournament at Bonneville Flats, firstly, as you said, it is an almost perfect venue for flight archery and secondly you get to talk with and observe the equipment of some really innovative bowyers. There is a real generosity of spirit among the young and old participants and officials, which translates into improved understanding for everyone who takes part.
Yes, the same cameraderie that happens at the Primitive Archery get-togethers, a lot of family supportive type interaction. I would really love to go out there next year. I have two longbow projects going, and maybe something by then in a composite, but it would be great just to watch and see who is doing what and with what.