Grozers hornbows
I recently came across a .pdf-document showing a Grozer Extra 3 which had been cut up to see the construction. It was not pretty, and I feel like this is something that should be known here, as I suppose many are tempted by the prices of his "horn bows".
These bows are apparently glued with epoxy, and the siyahs are screwed on with a wood screw. The fist sinew layer is not even sinew, and the wood core has the same construction as in a glass fiber bow! - and these bows are sold with a certificate stating that only natural materials were used, and they brag about making them as they have been made for thousands of years...
I thought bowyers were good honest people, but apparently not all.
http://www.docdroid.net/7pag/magyar-ext ... y.pdf.html
This comes on top of all the shadyness related to the "bio-composites", where horn dust in some kind of epoxy goes as horn, and the glass fiber is promoted as a "fiber strenghtening of the glue".
I think it is shameful.
These bows are apparently glued with epoxy, and the siyahs are screwed on with a wood screw. The fist sinew layer is not even sinew, and the wood core has the same construction as in a glass fiber bow! - and these bows are sold with a certificate stating that only natural materials were used, and they brag about making them as they have been made for thousands of years...
I thought bowyers were good honest people, but apparently not all.
http://www.docdroid.net/7pag/magyar-ext ... y.pdf.html
This comes on top of all the shadyness related to the "bio-composites", where horn dust in some kind of epoxy goes as horn, and the glass fiber is promoted as a "fiber strenghtening of the glue".
I think it is shameful.
From his website:
"Extra III. (composite or horn bow) finish: This is the kind that is the exact copy of the original, made with the same method as a thousand years ago, and consists of only natural components. The core of the bow is joined together of assorted kinds of wood. The inside (that is on the archer's side) is made of horn plating. The outside is made of tendon strings and fishbladder-glue, layered and shrunk onto the bow. These layers are sensitive to moisture, so it is covered with birch-bark or thin leather, which we decorate with original painted motives, on demand. The handle and tips are stiffened with horn or bone, and strengthened at the joinings with tying. The horn plating is made of the horn of Hungarian grey steer, water buffalo, ibex, wild sheep horn, and it's an expensive material, because there's not too much of it left. The fishbladder-glue can only be cooked from the airbladder of the sturgeon, a living fossil, that is also scarce these days. Actually, it isn't cooked, but we extract the glue from it with a "cold" process, soaking it in different kinds of materials. This way the quantity of the glue is small, but for that the quality is excellent. There is several reasons for using sturgeonbladder-glue for bowmaking for example: 1/ very strong gluing capability 2/ it won't get brittle or lose it's elasticity even after decades 3/ it is easy to work with. Obviously applying the tendon layer has got its own tricks. Before sinew must be soaked in various materials, impregnated, then only after this apply to the bow. This is why it is so unbreakable and resistant on the outer side of the bow. Besides, wood and horn must be treated, otherwise it would break easily in the bow. The horn-bow, the great invention of the Scythians, as well as the saddle, and later the Avar's stirrups. The rest of the eastern cultures took the knowledge of bowmaking from the nomads.
The making of a bow this way can take up to 10-12 months, drying of the wood not included.
An average composite bow has got the draw weight of 65 lbs, but we have orders on 45 lbs and 90 lbs bows either."
Well, seems like you can extract epoxy from sturgeon :3
"Extra III. (composite or horn bow) finish: This is the kind that is the exact copy of the original, made with the same method as a thousand years ago, and consists of only natural components. The core of the bow is joined together of assorted kinds of wood. The inside (that is on the archer's side) is made of horn plating. The outside is made of tendon strings and fishbladder-glue, layered and shrunk onto the bow. These layers are sensitive to moisture, so it is covered with birch-bark or thin leather, which we decorate with original painted motives, on demand. The handle and tips are stiffened with horn or bone, and strengthened at the joinings with tying. The horn plating is made of the horn of Hungarian grey steer, water buffalo, ibex, wild sheep horn, and it's an expensive material, because there's not too much of it left. The fishbladder-glue can only be cooked from the airbladder of the sturgeon, a living fossil, that is also scarce these days. Actually, it isn't cooked, but we extract the glue from it with a "cold" process, soaking it in different kinds of materials. This way the quantity of the glue is small, but for that the quality is excellent. There is several reasons for using sturgeonbladder-glue for bowmaking for example: 1/ very strong gluing capability 2/ it won't get brittle or lose it's elasticity even after decades 3/ it is easy to work with. Obviously applying the tendon layer has got its own tricks. Before sinew must be soaked in various materials, impregnated, then only after this apply to the bow. This is why it is so unbreakable and resistant on the outer side of the bow. Besides, wood and horn must be treated, otherwise it would break easily in the bow. The horn-bow, the great invention of the Scythians, as well as the saddle, and later the Avar's stirrups. The rest of the eastern cultures took the knowledge of bowmaking from the nomads.
The making of a bow this way can take up to 10-12 months, drying of the wood not included.
An average composite bow has got the draw weight of 65 lbs, but we have orders on 45 lbs and 90 lbs bows either."
Well, seems like you can extract epoxy from sturgeon :3
It's a pity. Tank you for sharing!
I have a fiberglass (base) bow from Grozer that I am very happy with :idea:
but this is :shock: :?: :!:
but this is :shock: :?: :!:
Yes, Kviljo, I have come accross the same article and it has given me a real shock.
As a long time Grozer's fan, my disgust reached a real depths in me.
The "extra III composite" is such a disgusting fake, such a dishonesty that he should take them all and give back the customers all their money. And yet the disaster made by this will not be healed.
That "extra III composite" is not at all "exact copy of the original, made with the same method as a thousand years ago, and consists of only natural components". I really wonder how can be anybody so cheeky to put so many lies in a single sentence.
Well, it is anything but not a composite bow.
It is a rude violation of all the principles of a hornbow's construction, which were painstakingly developed during thousands of years to achieve the best possible construction ever to reach the best possible bow.
And somebody comes and spits on it.
It makes me vomit.
As a long time Grozer's fan, my disgust reached a real depths in me.
The "extra III composite" is such a disgusting fake, such a dishonesty that he should take them all and give back the customers all their money. And yet the disaster made by this will not be healed.
That "extra III composite" is not at all "exact copy of the original, made with the same method as a thousand years ago, and consists of only natural components". I really wonder how can be anybody so cheeky to put so many lies in a single sentence.
Well, it is anything but not a composite bow.
It is a rude violation of all the principles of a hornbow's construction, which were painstakingly developed during thousands of years to achieve the best possible construction ever to reach the best possible bow.
And somebody comes and spits on it.
It makes me vomit.
My friend has a metal detectir in his possesion and he performed tests of hungarian and hunnish extra III composite bows and also hungarian short biocomposite bow. All of theese bows has metal particles in their siyahs. Maybe some RTG pictures will be made and I will post them then
I did the same when Kviljo posted this, the screws are present in the Hungarian bows, but not in the "Biocomposite" Turkish ones.
I don't know what to say after reading this document.... I'm speechless.
I consider myself a Grozer fan as I owned several Biocomposite bows and loved them. ( I know that the document is about the horn bows which should be superior to the Biocomps but it looks like it is not )
I know that in the past somebody tried to discredit Mr Grozer by cutting up one of his bows and his reply was that this particular bow was bought on his yearly auction where he was selling his old "prototype" bows and not an actual production piece. ( I was reading this on the Grozer bow forum)
Would be nice if Mr Grozer could reply and see what he has to say.
Lately his horn bow production multiplied compared to the previous years and the revealed production method in the PDF document would explain the rapid tempo of bow making.
To be fair the Turkish Bowyers centuries ago were capable to produce 100 bows per year according to Mr Klopsteg.
I consider myself a Grozer fan as I owned several Biocomposite bows and loved them. ( I know that the document is about the horn bows which should be superior to the Biocomps but it looks like it is not )
I know that in the past somebody tried to discredit Mr Grozer by cutting up one of his bows and his reply was that this particular bow was bought on his yearly auction where he was selling his old "prototype" bows and not an actual production piece. ( I was reading this on the Grozer bow forum)
Would be nice if Mr Grozer could reply and see what he has to say.
Lately his horn bow production multiplied compared to the previous years and the revealed production method in the PDF document would explain the rapid tempo of bow making.
To be fair the Turkish Bowyers centuries ago were capable to produce 100 bows per year according to Mr Klopsteg.
I wouldn't compare him with the old masters. He does not know what is proper.
I've heard that:
1) the bow was NOT the extra III bow, that it was an old "prototype", a subject of "sold out".....
2) the certificate has been issued additionally several weeks after the deal. The buyer asked Grozer for a certificate and Grozer did not remember that it was not an "extra III", but prototype, and thus issued the certificate
3) the construction (yew, elm laminate) together with the siyahs, horn glued without scraping etc was based on the Grozer's study of old Magyar, Hun bow findings
4) on some Hungarian forums discussing the topic one can find that perhaps the wooden screw could be very well a part of the old Huns, Magyars bows' construction.
OK. I really doubt it. But anyway, I am giving a chance.
Many Hungarian archaeological findings are in Hungarian language only, and many are only in printed magazine forms, so it is rather difficult to search through, but anyway, if there is ANY such a document proving, or at least proposing this type of a bow construction, please share it.
1) the bow was NOT the extra III bow, that it was an old "prototype", a subject of "sold out".....
2) the certificate has been issued additionally several weeks after the deal. The buyer asked Grozer for a certificate and Grozer did not remember that it was not an "extra III", but prototype, and thus issued the certificate
3) the construction (yew, elm laminate) together with the siyahs, horn glued without scraping etc was based on the Grozer's study of old Magyar, Hun bow findings
4) on some Hungarian forums discussing the topic one can find that perhaps the wooden screw could be very well a part of the old Huns, Magyars bows' construction.
OK. I really doubt it. But anyway, I am giving a chance.
Many Hungarian archaeological findings are in Hungarian language only, and many are only in printed magazine forms, so it is rather difficult to search through, but anyway, if there is ANY such a document proving, or at least proposing this type of a bow construction, please share it.
There are some real quality issues with these bows. I've heard of the screws used for biocomposites but not the extra III's which are supposed to be the real deal. Disgusting to say the least anyhow.
Check out these "horn" plates, that he uses for the bikes. What looks like horn might actually not be real horn...
http://naturcomposit.com/
http://naturcomposit.com/
If this is to be true about more than the bow in the document, and if there is something fishy about the whole bow making... That's bad, very bad...
Anyway. About the material that looks like horn but isn't, here is a text from Gr?zers start page on his website.
"New laminated bows! They combine the the TRH ans laminated technology. Heathstable and not twisting. In appearance looks similar to sinew and horn but made from modern materials.
The new laminated bows are not made from the usual E-fiberglass, but from a more durable and more flexible fiber material. The appearance is made very unique."
If the material is used also for other bows, like the Bio and Extra lll, I don't know. Easy way to find out is to burn it for a bit.
Anyway. About the material that looks like horn but isn't, here is a text from Gr?zers start page on his website.
"New laminated bows! They combine the the TRH ans laminated technology. Heathstable and not twisting. In appearance looks similar to sinew and horn but made from modern materials.
The new laminated bows are not made from the usual E-fiberglass, but from a more durable and more flexible fiber material. The appearance is made very unique."
If the material is used also for other bows, like the Bio and Extra lll, I don't know. Easy way to find out is to burn it for a bit.
well, apart from bowmaking - "A biocomposite material disintegrates in nature; however it is still light and very strong mechanically."
thats nice material science indeed.
I want a horn bike ! :D
thats nice material science indeed.
I want a horn bike ! :D
I was also one who was a Grozer ''fan'' and tricked into thinking they were real horn bows. I think stealing your money by tricking you into thinking something is one thing but is completely different is just despicable.