Similarity between Ottomans and Koreans shooting technique

This seems more like a minor bad habit. You lose draw length by letting the shoulder collapse, plus probably draw length consistency.

I really like your synthetic bow, backing method is interesting and many of your posts. I have trouble believing this, though. Unless you can somehow bring your chin down to the shoulder without hunching, but I don't see how that'd do anything other than destroy your neck. Gao Ying was strongly against hunching the bow arm shoulder and from my experience I think it would only result in pain. Does it seem like it works to you?

The importing thing here is 'the realim & history' and hitting the target perfectly.
Even Byron ferguson and Howard Hill's technique have got this bad looking..,'hunch' but anybody does not see& remember their hunches beside their perfect shootings :)
So;i've been using this real Ottoman shooting technique since when i learned from Mustafa Kani's 'Telhis-i Resailatı Rumat Archery book unlike the other who use the wrong Ottoman shooting technique in Turkey ot out.
Additionally;this technique does not make any pain on the body...,just use it to see the difference if you want to be like a cross bow.

Howard Hill's "hunch" is actually a result of the split vision aiming technique. Pay closer attention to his bow shoulder, it is remaining low and in the socket, without collapse. The hunch is coming from his upper back and neck. This helps to bring the arrow directly underneath the dominant eye, such that he can focus intently on the target, and his windage will be correct without having to consciously focus on it. His actual body mechanics are perfectly sound.

The collapsed shoulder in SOME Ottoman artwork is undeniable, BUT...

I would posit that this feature can be explained by a variety of alternative means. Not all of them are necessarily correct, but nor are they mutually exclusive. Just interesting food for thought:

1) Some of these archers might be "overbowed" by a bow that is too strong for them, and they are in a panic to shoot. If so, the "technique" is a negative side effect of the chaotic circumstances, not a deliberate choice that should be emulated.

2) The archers are twisting and turning their bodies to get their shots off in every direction. Eventually the torso cannot twist anymore and the arm and head have to rotate on their own, and force one into a position resembling the "chin linking", but nowhere near as extreme or intentional as depicted in the video. I just tried this sitting on a bench, and it was hard to avoid when trying to do the Parthian shot motion at a target directly behind me.

3) This is the big one. Most of the artwork is depicting mounted archers, and of those who are supposedly "chin linking", many are leaning forwards or backwards, probably to maintain balance (Or the artists simply drew them in an exaggerated pose for dramatic effect). The more extreme and obvious the chin link, the more extreme of an angle they are at.

Any leaning of the upper body relative to the bow arm is a known cause of shoulder collapse. This is the exact same principle why modern archery teaches us to bend at the waist when shooting uphill or downhill. That way the arms head and torso remain at the same angles relative to each other, and remain intact as a system. If one does the opposite, and merely moves the bow arm and head, one experiences exactly what I have warned about above: a shortening of draw length. If you have a bow of a fixed draw length, like a compound, this effect is immediately noticeable. The bow arm is not as extended as it was before, so the string hand comes further back. You feel like your draw length got longer, but actually, your body got compressed.

Clearly bending at the waist is not an option for an archer on horseback. So there is actually a silver lining to my criticism...

IF Kani was indeed recommending this shooting form to his students to practice while stable and on foot, perhaps it was simply a way for them to get used to shooting under the awkward and unideal positions they would be forced into when on horseback. Otherwise, I really don't see the wisdom in it. An archer on foot would be wise to dismiss the advice altogether.

Misc points:

-The beards are obscuring the extent of the chin, so for many pictures one can't necessarily draw the conclusion that they are "chin linking".

-One must also ask the question: how is one supposed to effectively do the chin linking while wearing a helmet with long sides? Or with armor that covers the shoulder?

Howard and byron's examples are just only for the hunchbacked appearance...There're a lot of different comparison things such as thumb release,short bow effects,etc.This is not the issue.

If you read my articles related with this issue..,i like to talk with some coorparated proofs of the old archery teacher techniques as written in the our main archery book...,Telhis-i Resailat-ı Rumat.So, i speak as their spokesperson.

I've tried a lot of shooting styles with this 'chin linking 'technique perfectly.This supporting matter gives an extra stability.
In our Ottoman style, drawing lenght or anchor point place is not so important because;you can choose your drawing lenght anywhere between the lips edge and ear level for increasing or decraising it if you want of course.

Ottoman style bows are very short and very powerfull in the last drawing points so,you can get back your poundage lost by using only a slightly stronger another bow or changing the anchor point to your ear or near..,no problem.

Ottomans 'chin linking technique' supports the shoulder by chin linking.As you know;strong bow or be tired causes some 'shoulder raising problems' if you don't have an enough power.
You can test this 'chin linking-supporting' with even without a bow easily for now...,just try it!,What did you see and live?.., as you can see;you can avoid your shoulder raising by your chin-slightly pushing easily.

Additionally,you can use this technique even with an armor and a helmet.For example;you can support your shoulder over your armor thickness..,this is relevant with your habit-adjusting.

Thanks for your interest,
Mehmet A.Gölhan

So one would use the chin to keep the shoulder from raising, or hunching at all? That makes sense, but I can't do it. Even if I make my bow arm point up.
Or do you make the arm hunch a bit, but the chin prevents it from hunching more?

Kani's description is available to me only in very awkwardly translated English so I hope you understand that meaningfully interpreting it as a non-Turk is problematic. "Reclining to the near cavity" could just mean "oriented in the direction of the near cavity". At least from what you've quoted of it, it doesn't explicitly say touch the chin to the shoulder. If there is a section that explicitly says this, please post it.

"Oriented in the direction of the near cavity" is also very consistent with the head position of many Korean traditional archers. The head is turned square to the target, as opposed to being at a slight angle:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... on_Kim.jpg

vs

http://discussions.texasbowhunter.com/f ... 1326199426

https://bogenschiessen.files.wordpress. ... er-006.jpg

That passage from Kani could be nothing more than getting the student to position their head properly for the correct sight picture.

Also, I'm still not sure you're fully taking into account the circumstances of the drawings. I argue it is simply the inevitable and unfortunate result of an awkward shooting position, or at least of the act of aiming at an angle without bending at the waist. Which may or may not be acceptable, depending on the circumstances.

Try it. Aim at an angle WITHOUT bending at the waist, both up and down. You get into a position resembling the chin link. It is hard to avoid.

Now bend at the waist. Easy to avoid the chin link, and you avoid the compression of the body.

I honestly do not believe the stability argument/excuse, I tried it extensively in a recent shooting session and it didn't do anything whatsoever. If anything it's WORSE. The collapsed shoulder can just easily slide along the side of the chin. Any increased stability could just be due to the power of suggestion, rather than something real. It just might be all in one's head. People all across the world easily shoot heavy bows without the chin supporting the shoulder.

There is not any doubt abouth the writing&understanding the explanations in the Telhis...,clearly written unlike the English version.Chin-linking technique written as follows;

'' Press your both foot to the ground such as standing while praying,the neck should be bent directly without tilting to all four sides,face should be turned over the shoulder without raising it,while the shoulder standing normaly,the chin should be recline to the near cavity of the shoulder.''

Additionally;telhis talks about the 'Bow hand shaking troubles-problems' and it's reason as ''Deficient or much shoulder supporting power for the chin-linking'' via by the best Ottoman master-archer teachers of their periods ..,so;you can beleive these explanations clearly.

I did 3 years the olympic and 6 years traditional Archery beside the Ottoman archery researches,findings but i've been using the real technique since when i learned it(~2 years) from the Telhis.) and;there is not any bad-side or negativity.

This technique is our real Ottoman-Turkish shooting technique and i don't expect for understand exactly by the other nations.,

because;it is relevant with our Ottoman war techniques and short bows.Yes,you can draw heavy long bows but it is more difficult to draw short heavy bows like the Ottoman war bows due to it'S draw-force characteristics,they're very-very nervous but 'The way of the mind is same'.so, i can show a Korean shooter Video proof as a really-realy closer ''chin-linking'' technique...,associated with its availability.You can visit and watch it by this link below;

https://youtu.be/GstHbmCKtLA?list=PLbYe ... z2wi4EoRIY

Nice video;so,
it is almost ' Beeing like a crossbow ' by this technique?isn't it? :)


Thanks for your interest,
Mehmet