flight shot
Another test of a classic Turkish bow, 120lb at 27 inches draw. Dacron string, shot with a machine.
724m (790 yards). 13.5 gram arrow (208 grains), parchment fletching. This is the best so far and shows the potential of these bows, although there is still some rubbing on the guide of the machine, since the bow is not center-shot. Possibly a good archer can do better than that.
A lot depends on the weather and wind conditions - the same bow gave around 600m on other days, with a silk 3xweight string about 20-30m beyond Dacron. A flax string would probably do better still, but the ones I made keep breaking on the first shot.
The test field is at the sea level (actually I shoot a few meters from below sea level).
Adam
724m (790 yards). 13.5 gram arrow (208 grains), parchment fletching. This is the best so far and shows the potential of these bows, although there is still some rubbing on the guide of the machine, since the bow is not center-shot. Possibly a good archer can do better than that.
A lot depends on the weather and wind conditions - the same bow gave around 600m on other days, with a silk 3xweight string about 20-30m beyond Dacron. A flax string would probably do better still, but the ones I made keep breaking on the first shot.
The test field is at the sea level (actually I shoot a few meters from below sea level).
Adam
724 meters, that is fantastic. :D
ausgezeichnates Ergebniss,grosses Kompliment
Wow! Congratulations! This is just fantastic!
Did you incorporate some twisting of the bow grip on the machine? - or some other solution to prevent the arrows from shattering?
Did you incorporate some twisting of the bow grip on the machine? - or some other solution to prevent the arrows from shattering?
Why oh why is a person not shooting these bows? :?
Ivar,
The bow is rigidly mounted horizontally in the machine at an angle, similar to a crossbow. As the bow is drawn (the arrow rides in a grooved "stock"), the limbs are torqued. The arrow clears the groove (it is still bent on the way out, since the bow is not centershot) until the last few centimeters, where the nock rubs on the groove.
I think a skilled archer may be better than the machine in avoiding the rubbing on the groove (or siper) and the arrow should fly farther.
Adam
The bow is rigidly mounted horizontally in the machine at an angle, similar to a crossbow. As the bow is drawn (the arrow rides in a grooved "stock"), the limbs are torqued. The arrow clears the groove (it is still bent on the way out, since the bow is not centershot) until the last few centimeters, where the nock rubs on the groove.
I think a skilled archer may be better than the machine in avoiding the rubbing on the groove (or siper) and the arrow should fly farther.
Adam
Good solution. That conforms well to the "grip crushing" technique I suspect. :) It's really quite encouraging to see that these arrows actually can stand the punch from a 120 pound bow - although with the rigth technique. I must say I had my doubts at times.
Would you share some stats on the bow? Mass/type of shape/length/conditioned?
And approximately how much wind speed was there at the best shot?
With some further tweaking you might even risk outshooting the old masters :shock: :D
Would you share some stats on the bow? Mass/type of shape/length/conditioned?
And approximately how much wind speed was there at the best shot?
With some further tweaking you might even risk outshooting the old masters :shock: :D
The limb twist helps, but for the heavy bows the arrow should still be stiff. Shafts deflecting 1/2 and less under 2lb weight (22in span) should be OK. The machine is more tolerant of weaker spine arrows - this one was 11/16in.
The bow is typical Turkish, about 42in ntn. Never conditioned, but I keep it at 35-40%RH in a dry box.
The wind speed was 15-20km/h, steady with no gusts. I find steady wind, even when strong, is good.
Adam
The bow is typical Turkish, about 42in ntn. Never conditioned, but I keep it at 35-40%RH in a dry box.
The wind speed was 15-20km/h, steady with no gusts. I find steady wind, even when strong, is good.
Adam
Congratulations it is amazing succes. You really achieve to make a bow very close to the best of old ones. 8) You are inspiration to us all.
Thank you Jenes. Bear in mind a successful shot is a combination of the bow/arrow/archer/weather/luck all working in tandem and all equally important.
I forget about the mass for Ivar: it is 319 grams and the length ntn is actually 41 inches. Dacron string 9.4 grams (145 graina).
Adam
I forget about the mass for Ivar: it is 319 grams and the length ntn is actually 41 inches. Dacron string 9.4 grams (145 graina).
Adam
This is just brilliant! The spine is very similar to what I have gotten out of my arrows. Getting only 1/2" deflection demands very rare material.
Achieving this as a bowyer/fletcher is the ultimate. Never mind the missing archer behind the bow. This is a sport for craftsmen. Adding 164 meters to the past comparable record is no small thing! - especially when the numbers are already this high (Don Browns shot of 560 meters with a Harry Drake bow in 1995)
- and all this with something that sounds like a "standard" Turkish bow. Very encouraging.
...makes you wonder what would happen if a similarly heavy "pishrew" type bow was strapped to the machine. Could it be that these seemingly later and lighter cresent-shaped bows were "maxed out" speed-wise at a somewhat lower draw weight? The bow vs. arrow weight-ratio is already rather extreme, so perhaps there would be little to no gain by making a pishrew type bow of unusually high draw weight?
Achieving this as a bowyer/fletcher is the ultimate. Never mind the missing archer behind the bow. This is a sport for craftsmen. Adding 164 meters to the past comparable record is no small thing! - especially when the numbers are already this high (Don Browns shot of 560 meters with a Harry Drake bow in 1995)
- and all this with something that sounds like a "standard" Turkish bow. Very encouraging.
...makes you wonder what would happen if a similarly heavy "pishrew" type bow was strapped to the machine. Could it be that these seemingly later and lighter cresent-shaped bows were "maxed out" speed-wise at a somewhat lower draw weight? The bow vs. arrow weight-ratio is already rather extreme, so perhaps there would be little to no gain by making a pishrew type bow of unusually high draw weight?
impressive! big worship from me! the bow is there any finish coat or cover?
Here is a picture of this bow and arrow.
Adam
Adam
Congratulations on these results Adam - they give real fuel to the fire!
When you mentioned the shafts deflection are you measuring the 22 inch from the nock end or positioning the shaft centrally?
What diameter are your arrows at the point and at the nock also the maximum diameter? I made a batch of split cane arrows and would like to compare your arrow stats to mine to see if i'm in the 'ballpark'.
When you mentioned the shafts deflection are you measuring the 22 inch from the nock end or positioning the shaft centrally?
What diameter are your arrows at the point and at the nock also the maximum diameter? I made a batch of split cane arrows and would like to compare your arrow stats to mine to see if i'm in the 'ballpark'.
Looking back at this bow, I'm encouraged by how mundane this record-breaking bow looks - if that is a term that could ever be appointed to a Turkish bow. Makes me wonder what distances might be had from a more extreme looking bow.
Was this bow made with a "regular" design in mind, or did you tweak the design in directions you feelt would be advantageous for flight shooting? It's hard to imagine how the Turkish design could be improved. Perhaps working with the bows over all the years have given some pointers?
I've bent some cores that I hope will resemble the red flight bow in Dr. Graysons collection, with an 8" radius for the sal sections. Wonder what that design might do.
Was this bow made with a "regular" design in mind, or did you tweak the design in directions you feelt would be advantageous for flight shooting? It's hard to imagine how the Turkish design could be improved. Perhaps working with the bows over all the years have given some pointers?
I've bent some cores that I hope will resemble the red flight bow in Dr. Graysons collection, with an 8" radius for the sal sections. Wonder what that design might do.
Sorry for the late reply. The arrow was no more than 6.5mm max diam, the point about 3mm and the nock a little less than the max diameter. For those great distances, the arrow must definitely be under 7mm and very slick.
The bow had the tips narrow and the outer halfs of kasans also narrowing, but nor excesively. Nothing special. I try to keep the sals as thick as possible, especially close to the grip, but I have seen such old bows too. Best of luck with your bows Ivar.
Adam
The bow had the tips narrow and the outer halfs of kasans also narrowing, but nor excesively. Nothing special. I try to keep the sals as thick as possible, especially close to the grip, but I have seen such old bows too. Best of luck with your bows Ivar.
Adam
Here is another test:
790m (862 yards). The bow was 163lb, Dacron string, arrow 14.7 grams (about 230 grains). Machine shot.
I made another shot with the bow and a better arrow, but unfortunately the bow shed its string on release. Still the arrow went to 734m.
Below is the picture of the bow. It has little reflex, because I decided to reduce the weight by heat-deflexing the limbs, so the thickness of sals would remain as high as possible. The bow is 44in ntn and its mass is 409g.
I believe a bow of such high weight is quite capable to send an arrow well over 800m with a right arrow.
Adam
790m (862 yards). The bow was 163lb, Dacron string, arrow 14.7 grams (about 230 grains). Machine shot.
I made another shot with the bow and a better arrow, but unfortunately the bow shed its string on release. Still the arrow went to 734m.
Below is the picture of the bow. It has little reflex, because I decided to reduce the weight by heat-deflexing the limbs, so the thickness of sals would remain as high as possible. The bow is 44in ntn and its mass is 409g.
I believe a bow of such high weight is quite capable to send an arrow well over 800m with a right arrow.
Adam
The picture:
Thanks for the pictures Adam.
It is very interesting to see you achieving these superb distances and closing in on the old records!
Is the arrow sectional Tonkin? What is the point made of and how heavy is it? What is the fletching made of? Also where is the balance point of the arrow?
The bow does indeed look to have very thick sals! Especially off the handle. How wide are the limbs in the sal area? How long did the bow season?
I have finally managed to source a load of excellent maple for cores and will be cranking out some more bows to try and follow your lead with these flight distances!
Many thanks for the post/photos.
It is very interesting to see you achieving these superb distances and closing in on the old records!
Is the arrow sectional Tonkin? What is the point made of and how heavy is it? What is the fletching made of? Also where is the balance point of the arrow?
The bow does indeed look to have very thick sals! Especially off the handle. How wide are the limbs in the sal area? How long did the bow season?
I have finally managed to source a load of excellent maple for cores and will be cranking out some more bows to try and follow your lead with these flight distances!
Many thanks for the post/photos.
Heard this earlier today over on Facebook. Shit :shock: :D There isn't really words to describe how impressive this is. It's so cool to see what's possible.
Several old bows I have seen have had delaminations between the horn and core in the sal-grip transition. It seems difficult to dimension this area correctly. I suspect this was something the old bowyers tried to push to the limit, to make the bows smoother. For pure flight, you have definitely solved the issue with this bow :) - and it does make sense that this would be good for speed with light arrows too.
I'm also curious about the specs that Mike mentions. Especially the thickness of the sals. This must be closing in on the maximum the materials will take. D-section, or more rectangular? Flat/curved glue line?
Ok, you're not obliged to reveal all secrets 8) Hope for 800 in fall! :D
Several old bows I have seen have had delaminations between the horn and core in the sal-grip transition. It seems difficult to dimension this area correctly. I suspect this was something the old bowyers tried to push to the limit, to make the bows smoother. For pure flight, you have definitely solved the issue with this bow :) - and it does make sense that this would be good for speed with light arrows too.
I'm also curious about the specs that Mike mentions. Especially the thickness of the sals. This must be closing in on the maximum the materials will take. D-section, or more rectangular? Flat/curved glue line?
Ok, you're not obliged to reveal all secrets 8) Hope for 800 in fall! :D
The arrow was 4-sections bamboo (could be Tonkin, I am not sure), about 24.5in long with very small horn point. It balances about 13in from the point. Thin rawhide vanes.
The sals thinnest part below kasans is 14mm total thickness and sals width is 27mm. The glue line betw. horn and core is flat (grooves match), the sal sections are well rounded rectangle, somewhat flatter on the back.
The grip is too long, for reasons unrelated to perfomance in this case. The bow seasoned for 1.5 year or a bit longer.
Yesterday, I tried to shoot the bow again, this time with an FF string. Bad idea - one of the (bone) nocks broke, but I will try again once repaired.
Good luck with your tests, I am hoping for 800+ soon.
Adam
The sals thinnest part below kasans is 14mm total thickness and sals width is 27mm. The glue line betw. horn and core is flat (grooves match), the sal sections are well rounded rectangle, somewhat flatter on the back.
The grip is too long, for reasons unrelated to perfomance in this case. The bow seasoned for 1.5 year or a bit longer.
Yesterday, I tried to shoot the bow again, this time with an FF string. Bad idea - one of the (bone) nocks broke, but I will try again once repaired.
Good luck with your tests, I am hoping for 800+ soon.
Adam
Awesome!
You have tried very skinny FF strings (more stretchy and efficient due to lighter weight?) with thick loop serving? I've read in your book that you've tried all kinds of things to get the heavier bows to not blow up with FF strings... may not be possible with such low gpp
You have tried very skinny FF strings (more stretchy and efficient due to lighter weight?) with thick loop serving? I've read in your book that you've tried all kinds of things to get the heavier bows to not blow up with FF strings... may not be possible with such low gpp
Adam, would you be kind enough to show the shooting machine you are using? I am making some heavy flight bows and I won't be strong enough to shoot them anytime soon. Some pictures would really help rather than designing one from scratch. I'm interested in the method you use to hold/release the string at the correct drawlength. Also do you have some sort of overdraw fitted and if so how? I presume you are drawing that bow to 28"?
Also many thanks for supplying the details of the arrow. By four sections do you mean that the finished arrow is square? I feel the sectional bamboo arrows are definitely the way to go. In my experiments with them the spine/weight ratio is so much better than any pure wood shafting I have come across.
Also many thanks for supplying the details of the arrow. By four sections do you mean that the finished arrow is square? I feel the sectional bamboo arrows are definitely the way to go. In my experiments with them the spine/weight ratio is so much better than any pure wood shafting I have come across.
I put away the machine for now (grass too long), but will post a picture later. It is based on Ivar's except the bow is mounted horizontally. The release mechanism is similar to the crossbow releases, but it can be much easier to use a commercial compound release by modifying the trigger so it acts when touchedby a stop positioned along the guide at a desired draw length. The grooved guide is the "overdraw" (as in crossbows), but the arrows are still 24.5in long for 27in draw (only 2.5in overdraw, I should try 28in draw sometime for more distance) to simulate the Turkish siper.
The arrows are round of course. Six or more sections would be better.
Adam
The arrows are round of course. Six or more sections would be better.
Adam
Happy to see that my machine has inspired. I have two youtube videos featuring it. It's basically just a crossbow-design with feet and a siper. Mostly made from oak. Feel free to copy, Mike :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7T-_RxSDIU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiFDK3tp71M
I can't get over that 800 might be within reach. It's just crazy far. I'm nowhere near that, although I have some bows that will be ready for the end of summer that I have high hopes for. My best so far this year is 284 meters with a 42" 27 pound @ 27 inches. I thought that was pretty good for such a lightweight bow. I'd be interested to hear if any of you have tested other lightweight turkish bows?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7T-_RxSDIU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiFDK3tp71M
I can't get over that 800 might be within reach. It's just crazy far. I'm nowhere near that, although I have some bows that will be ready for the end of summer that I have high hopes for. My best so far this year is 284 meters with a 42" 27 pound @ 27 inches. I thought that was pretty good for such a lightweight bow. I'd be interested to hear if any of you have tested other lightweight turkish bows?