Slings - archery?

Sure, let's discuss slings.

I haven't come a cross the Tibetan ones. I trawled this on Google:
http://www.friendsoftibet.org/main/rangzenband.html

The only photographs I've come across of Tibetan slings show slings woven in the same style as the rangzen band, that is to say, black and white, yak and sheep wool, with fairly large woven pockets. I am unsure as to whether the pockets on the slings are split or whole, but I believe they are whole pockets. They have several loops woven into them, and they often have a "cracker" tied to the end of the release cord - that is, a knotted cord with a deliberately frayed end, so it cracks like a whip, this being for herding yak and sheep. A sling, any sling, can be very powerful, quite easily. In the hands of a novice, a stone can go over 200 feet with ease, but the main problem is the steep learning curve. It is difficult to equip an army of slingers who need training, who haven't used the sling since they were young, but overall, the sling can be a useful weapon, because it is so portable. You can just fit it right into your pocket and pick ammunition from the ground. It's silent, and very long range - the longest distance shot on record is 477 metres.

I handled a Tibetan sling once at an antique fair. It had a woven rectangular pouch with a cord coming from each short side. One ended in a loop and the other with a knot with a frayed piece of cord. Due to the length and their lightness, I don't think you could crack them like a whip, but I didn't try it so I could be wrong.

Here's a reference, if you can find it:

The Tibet Journal, Autumn 2000 Vol. XXV No. 3. "The Sling and the Inflated Skin Boat in Tibet," Siegbert Hummel Trans. G. Vogliotti, p. 14

Publisher information at http://www.lib.virginia.edu/area-studie ... bjsub.html

With a stone in the pouch, they are easily cracked like a whip when shot, I promise. I have made several Andean style slings, woven wool, and with the frayed end, they crack, loudly. You are right though - without a stone, they are too light to crack.

Stephen, could you attach a picture of one of these slings ? For some unknown reason, I can't connect to your friendsoftibet.org website from mainland China....

Actually, the thing illustrated on the website is not a sling: it's just a decorative armband that represents the sling. Not worth posting.

I'll put in an enquiry with Tibetan friends and see if I can get one, or at least a picture.

S.

Have you tried http://slinging.org ?


Also, there are two pictures of tibetan sling in use at this site:


http://www.skidmore.edu/academics/asian ... omads.html

Slinging.org has, obviously, a lot of sling related information, but there is very little concerning slings in Tibet, or indeed, the whole of Asia.

have you noticed this photo?
[external image]

That looks like a photograph by Tolstoy in the 1940s which I believe is under copyright. There is film of this type event which was broadcast by the BBC. It shows the full horse achery demonstration.

Its from the same site the sling photos came from. Should I delete it or just post the link, then?
Can you tell us some more about that archery demonstration?
Pleaaaase?

Several years ago I traced the origin of the film used in the video. I think it was taken by Lowell Thomas in the late 1930s or early 1940s. It was in colour and showed three horsemen shooting at two consecutive targets. They shot at the first one with their guns and, after slinging them over their shoulders, took out their bows and shot at the next target.

The video was about Tibet and narrated by Harrer, the mountaineer.

A section on standing archery was also included using a Qing, cloth, hanging target with a suspended disk. The bows looked Chinese and were longer than the horse archers' equipment. The draw was a variation of the Mediterranean and the arrows looked like whistling arrows.

I have a book of H.Harrer that shows related photo's.According to what my book said, those medieval uniforms & some of the weapons where taken from the corpses of a muslim army that tried to invade Tibet century's ago, they froze to death in a snow storm on their way to Lhasa.Once in a year this
artefacts where taken out in a parade to remember that event......
http://www.skidmore.edu/academics/asian ... mArmy.html
This page has some pics of this muslim army(?)armour (horseback) plus some pics of tibetan trad. armour...

The history is somewhat confused and the accounts differ. Harrer spoke of the lamellar armours as being from Muslim invaders. However, lamellar is a traditional Tibetan and Central Asian method of making armour and predates Islam.
On the other hand, the armour in the photograph on this discussion thread has many characteristics of Mogul armour (like mail shirts and four mirrors plates around the body). I think someone is being misquoted, but I don't know who.

I've checked on the internet extensively for Asian sling use, in particular in the online collection of the Division of Anthropology at the American Museum of Natural History, and it seems to be that (as I already half-knew) slings have been used from Asia minor to the pacific, in particular, in India, Turkey, and the Arab regions. (There were no Tibetan slings in the collection, although they are certainly used.) However, the sling seems to completely bypass China, Korea and Japan. Can anyone think of reasons? I would say that the use of pellet bows makes the sling obsolete, but pellet bows are known to have been used far to the west as well as in China.

West: I am not certain, but I asume that the use of the sling went along with
sheep or goat herdsmen. Those nomadic cultures often sent their small kids
to herd the flocks where they where confronted by hyenas,lions,leopards, jackals.....etc. Now, a seven year old boy can hardly pull a composite bow,
but he can well deal with a lion using his sling.(Young Palestinian kids often use it effectivly against the modern equipped Israeli forces).
Then, animals learn very quickly, that picking up a stone, or this circular movement of the arm means pain to them.It may not even be necessary to shoot a stone -- the gesture will mostly be enough to hold them at a distance(once they have felt it)...besides, the sling is very cheap and simply made, if compared to the making of a pellet bow.It can also be concealed with ease.But for sure it is not a weapon that has the same kind of "Izzat" like the bow.

Yes, the reason is probably that herders of sheep, goats, yaks, etc, use slings, and that in China this is not the pre-dominant form of agriculture. Slings are easily enough to kill people and even the larger mammals, like average sized bears - the power is about that of a modern pistol - more like an arrow-bow than a pellet-bow, in reality. And in actuality, the woven slings can take a very long time to make - around 8 hours or so of almost constant attention. Pellet bows can be made from slats of large diameter bamboo, roughly tillered, with a relatively easily made string, either with a fabric pouch, or a "rope-ladder" style pouch; I'd say a pellet bow can be made in around 4 hours or under.

West: You are probably right.I thought of a more complex (composite) pellet bow.Anyway, a sling could also be done in a very simple way with leather.....
I just found, there is a whole forum on sling shooting....
http://www.slinging.org/index.html

Yes, I'm on the forum. I've made many slings, some "traditional2 in many arts of the world, some "primitive", using willow bark, etc. The site does not have much, or any, information with regards to Asian slings.

Mr Xu Kaicai has made some enquiries in Tibet:
你让我看的那个东西，以前我见过，具体叫什么名字用汉语说不通，我咨询了青海的朋友，他知道是牧羊人摔石头用的，一头套在拇指上，中间有一块皮子放石头，然后抡起来，会用的人抛的又远又准，用汉语叫什么他也说不清，藏语叫?武嘎?，只是这么个音。现在已不用了，我请他找一个，他说他在旧古玩市场上见过，如果能买到，七月份我们去时会见到。
徐开才 2006/4/10.

"I've seen the thing that you sent me photographs of, but I don't know what it's actually called in Chinese. I have asked a friend in Qinghai. He knows that it was used by shepherds: one end was gripped with the thumb and a piece of stone was placed against a piece of leather. and it was whirled around. People who knew how could shoot accurately and at a great distance. He didn't know the correct name in Chinese either; it's called 'Wuka' in Tibetan (that's just the sound). It isn't used any more. He said he had seen one in an antique market. He'd try and get one for me in July.
Xu Kaicai, 10 April 2006"

S.

Wow, now that's interesting, that it's so unknown to Chinese people as to not even have a name.

Names fall out of use and some things never enter into the literary language. There is a dichotomy between early China and early Europe in regard to medium range projectile weapons. China preferred the cross bow while the Greeks and Romans liked javelins. Perhaps the sling like wise never penetrated the main culture area of Chinese population. However, slings on trebuchets were known as early as Mo Tse (sorry about the Wade Giles).

It is interesting that many cultures prefer to make slings out of woven material, but it is just as easy to to make them of leather and even quicker. However, experience may have taught that textile slings lasted longer.

I don't think time was necessarily an important point in considering whether to use one method of manufacture than another. Durability and available skills and materials probably counted for more.

West wrote:

Wow, now that's interesting, that it's so unknown to Chinese people as to not even have a name.

If it were not for the biblical story of David and Goliath, I don't think anyone would know the name in English either. When were these things last popular in Europe?

Balearic slingers from the Western Mediterranean were used by the Romans and I believe the Basques used slings until recently.

In the Middle Ages in Europe apart from hand slings, there were staff slings which were short poles with a sling mounted on one end. Probably the extra leverage enabled either larger or faster missiles to be thrown.

Catalan mercenaries were renown for their stone throwing, though some of it may have been by hand without a sling at all. Hand thrown pieces of earth and stones were used against French Crusaders in Egypt.

I'm sure we would know the word "sling" even without David &c. Slings were used in the last real full-on engagement in the Anglo-Spanish war of the 14th century. They were, naturally, used by the Spanish against the English longbowmen (they were actually fighting partly over Spanish yew trees for longbow production.) The Viking and Saxon armies prior to 1066 (and for a short time after) used slings, and slings were definitely used at Hastings. They are depicted in hunting roles also on the Bayeux tapestry.
Roman slingers were a valued part of the army, and utilised not only rocks but properly cast lead shot, often with obscene messages on them. The Greeks also used slings/slingers and staff-slingers (slings on the end of sticks) were definitely used by the English navy in the medieval period to sling not only rocks, but incendiary materials too. Leonardo da Vinci used slings and staff slings to develop ideas on ballistics and siege weaponry. Slings were also used by many characters in Irish mythology.
Slings, basically, are not junk weapons. I can fairly easily outrange even a moderately powerful (self)bow with a good, long sling and a nice round or oval stone.
Slings are currently used in the middle east as Alam ed Din says, and in the Balearic islands, slings have not gone out of fashion - there are still regular sling competitions using the traditional grass braided slings. In the Andes, slings are still woven from alpaca and llama wool, and they were used against the invading Spaniards - to no real success, however. Slings are also still used in Africa, but I can't really verify this.
I don't know of any references to hand-held slings, used as infantry or even hunting weapons, in China - only trebuchets and other siege weapons.

slings were used in ireland in the early medieval age against the normans and probably later too i know also that slings were used to lanch war darts often on horseback these went extinct by 1600 probaly earlier.

Who said it was a junk weapon? It maybe more deadly or accurate at long distances. However, in Asia, or lets say in muslim countries, there is and was a strong code of honour or honourable activities.("Izzat"/"Ezzeth").
Certain weapons are associated with "lowly" people and/or people of low rank in society (......like the pitch fork in medieval Europe) or children.
Now we could argue if the sling was looked upon in this way.
The (composite) bow in contrast, was held in high esteem by muslims as its use in warfare and sport was concidered honourable due to its mentioning in a hadith of the holy Qur'an.
In comparison, the bow wasn't such a respected weapon with certain European medieval cultures, as they associated it with cowardice......from their point of view the bow was a weapon of "lowly people".

(please don't take this word "lowly people" in a bad way - basically I mean with that "peasants, herdsmen & artisans", who weren't respected that much, although they might have fought very well with their weapons - such as the sling- side by side with people of higher rank during campaigns)