COMPOSITE BOW USE TODAY
I remember reading - I think it was on this site, that the composite bow is still made and used on horseback in Turkmenistan today. It's use is by nomadic herders, as has been the Asian tradition for centuries - but still persists in that country. It would be interesting to hear from any other members who may know anything about this - or who may be able to point me in the direction where I may find out more. From what I have read, it seems that the asian composite bow only fully died out as a serious weapon as late as the first decade of last century. It would be very interesting if it still persisted that way, albeit isolated and rare to this day.
Soviet-era Russian publications mention horse archery in the Caucasus in the 20th century. Has it survived there today?
Someone left a vivid account on ATARNet of witnessing a deer hunt on horseback using composite bows. However, all my attempts to get the person to follow up with more details were in vain. I am left with some doubts about the account.
Archery is still a very important element in Tibetan social life and I know for certain that hornbows are used in many locations around Tibet and Qinghai for the sport. They are not used for hunting. I have taken part in a horseback archery competition in Qinghai.
In Mongolia, they are widely used to practice the three forms of archery in the national Nadam archery sport. There have been some sporadic efforts to do horseback archery, but it has not caught on.
I have no information from the Central Asian 'stans'. I would like to hear if anyone has. (My sister spent time in rural Kirghizstan last year but could find no news of archery.)
S
Archery is still a very important element in Tibetan social life and I know for certain that hornbows are used in many locations around Tibet and Qinghai for the sport. They are not used for hunting. I have taken part in a horseback archery competition in Qinghai.
In Mongolia, they are widely used to practice the three forms of archery in the national Nadam archery sport. There have been some sporadic efforts to do horseback archery, but it has not caught on.
I have no information from the Central Asian 'stans'. I would like to hear if anyone has. (My sister spent time in rural Kirghizstan last year but could find no news of archery.)
S
Good to hear from you guys - very interesting comments. I just find it quite a fascinating area, that of how long the bow may have persisted as a weapon in various parts of the World. In my native Britain, we gave up the bow comparatively early as a weapon of war - mainly due to sociological and political changes at the end of the Middle Ages. It's tactical merits could arguably have held it in good stead for a few centuries after it fell out of use - alongside newer weapons. It seems that in other parts of the World, particularly Asia this was the case. Anyway, it is a great thing that traditional archery persists today as a sport bringing together people of vastly differing cultures in a common interest - and indeed a sense of comradeship.
Gents; I have some casual contacts with Central Asians and will occasionaly dine and socialise with them. Of course they like to talk about their countries and this is what I have learned over the last few years.
Kazakhstan; A traditional country dominated by Solviet-era management style. They try to return to their language and roots. Hunting with eagles is the most traditional sport, is carried on by Kirgiz ethnics, and is now frowned upon by the government. I think they have wrestling. Lots of yurts and some nomads. No traditional archery. They enjoy unusual competitive sports such as fighting Bactrian camels. Many displaced Russians and 60 other ethnic groups. Scythian and nomad goodies in the museums.
Turkministan; One of the most closed countries in the world. A new law assigns an individual spy to each foreign visitor. There is no tourist industry whatever. Many nomadic tribesmen of seven groups own some of the finest horses in the world. Wealthy Arabs visit
to practice falconry, take out birds. Wrestling and horse sports are much practiced. There is no archery at all. The best rugs in the world made here. Gas is free, if you only had a car.
Kirgizstan; Fantastic natural beauty, mountain climbing, hunting.
Uzbekistan; Their dictator is second only to Turkmenistan's "Bashi". A land with fertile soil and fantastic history, pristine archeological sites, fabulous historic buildings. Alexander of Macedonia wed here. Tammerlane's capital. Wrestling in several styles. They protect tourists against extremism as possible, hospitable populace. No archery. They did have one olympic archer. All of their best artifacts are in European museums. Silk making, music.
Tadjikistan; Pristine mountains, natural wonders, archaeology. Another dismally poor country.
Joseph Stalin used the stans as dumping grounds for Turkic and Moslem Russians so the stans are diverse ethnically. Their governments are Run by Solviet-type bureaucrats, but even less tolerant with small regard for individual efforts. Hence, incomes are from small to dismal. Kazakhstan may be the shining exception.
Trivia: A small part of Kazakhstan is actually in Europe. -j-
Kazakhstan; A traditional country dominated by Solviet-era management style. They try to return to their language and roots. Hunting with eagles is the most traditional sport, is carried on by Kirgiz ethnics, and is now frowned upon by the government. I think they have wrestling. Lots of yurts and some nomads. No traditional archery. They enjoy unusual competitive sports such as fighting Bactrian camels. Many displaced Russians and 60 other ethnic groups. Scythian and nomad goodies in the museums.
Turkministan; One of the most closed countries in the world. A new law assigns an individual spy to each foreign visitor. There is no tourist industry whatever. Many nomadic tribesmen of seven groups own some of the finest horses in the world. Wealthy Arabs visit
to practice falconry, take out birds. Wrestling and horse sports are much practiced. There is no archery at all. The best rugs in the world made here. Gas is free, if you only had a car.
Kirgizstan; Fantastic natural beauty, mountain climbing, hunting.
Uzbekistan; Their dictator is second only to Turkmenistan's "Bashi". A land with fertile soil and fantastic history, pristine archeological sites, fabulous historic buildings. Alexander of Macedonia wed here. Tammerlane's capital. Wrestling in several styles. They protect tourists against extremism as possible, hospitable populace. No archery. They did have one olympic archer. All of their best artifacts are in European museums. Silk making, music.
Tadjikistan; Pristine mountains, natural wonders, archaeology. Another dismally poor country.
Joseph Stalin used the stans as dumping grounds for Turkic and Moslem Russians so the stans are diverse ethnically. Their governments are Run by Solviet-type bureaucrats, but even less tolerant with small regard for individual efforts. Hence, incomes are from small to dismal. Kazakhstan may be the shining exception.
Trivia: A small part of Kazakhstan is actually in Europe. -j-
Jack's summary is a good one. I would just add that they are all fertile ground for reviving traditional archery.
One interesting aside: I went to Vietnam at the end of last year and talked to the chairman of their national sports committee about traditional archery. He firmly denied that there had ever been traditional archery (except for crossbows) in Vietnam. When I produced photographic evidence to the contrary, they were gobsmacked.
One interesting aside: I went to Vietnam at the end of last year and talked to the chairman of their national sports committee about traditional archery. He firmly denied that there had ever been traditional archery (except for crossbows) in Vietnam. When I produced photographic evidence to the contrary, they were gobsmacked.
All fascinating stuff. It seems that the Soviet era did a great deal to extinguish traditional Steppes culture - but the people seem to have kept a certain amount alive. They must have been grim times out there to say the least. I don't think Joseph Stalin in particular liked nomadic Steppes way of life very much (!) and did what he could to wipe it out and 'collectivise' everybody. It is a good thing that old cultures can rediscover themselves more now. Archery was a big part of the old Steppes way of life, but I wonder by the time of the revolution how much traditional archery may have been dying out anyway - after all we are talking early 20th century. Today I'm sure it may require to start afresh with it and learn the old skills anew in many places - if people want to revive that part of their cultural roots.
In Stalin's time - and even now - many Russians see the bow and arrow as a symbol of the suffering that the Russians endured under the Mongol and Tartar yoke. I think that Tarkovski made a horrific film called 'The Great Bell of Kiev' that illustrated it. Worth watching if you have a strong stomach for its portrayal of the Mongol invaders (all played by Mongols).
Hello Stephen,the movie you are talking about is called "Andrej Rublev":the one of the bell is only the last episode of the movie.Maybe the hystorical reconstruction is not accurate,and in the few scenes of shooting the bow used is ugly,but the movie itself it's great.Give to it a second chance. :wink:
Bye
Francesco
Bye
Francesco
Stephen, Francesco and all; Another atarnite flagged me about this being the 800th anniversary of Chenggis Khan. In the newspapers were articles about how proud the Mongolian peoples were of his achievements, "uniting' such a large empire and all his other fine acts, bringing order etc.
My Uzbek friends are not so keen on Alexander who is called "Great" in the west for the same tempo of "achievements" as G Khan, but with not so long-lasting of an effect. There, he is known as Alexander of Macedonia, and is only one in a long line of conquerers. Stalin may be in the same line; the area has never recovered from such a long sucession of over achievers.
PS. In 1995 the statue of Stalin was pulled over in Tashkent and a statue of Tammerlane was erected in its place. They pretty well know what he looked like because the inquisitive Solviets had opened his mosaleum and made casts of his bones.
Tammerlane the great uniter! Point of view is everything. -j-
My Uzbek friends are not so keen on Alexander who is called "Great" in the west for the same tempo of "achievements" as G Khan, but with not so long-lasting of an effect. There, he is known as Alexander of Macedonia, and is only one in a long line of conquerers. Stalin may be in the same line; the area has never recovered from such a long sucession of over achievers.
PS. In 1995 the statue of Stalin was pulled over in Tashkent and a statue of Tammerlane was erected in its place. They pretty well know what he looked like because the inquisitive Solviets had opened his mosaleum and made casts of his bones.
Tammerlane the great uniter! Point of view is everything. -j-
Someone once said (I forget who), that you only need to hear two seperate accounts of a road traffic accident to make you think again about history.
Historical events take on a very different perspective depending from which side you view them! Every nation has its heroes which were definately someone else's villians.
It seems that through history, there has been a 'difficult' relationship between settled peoples in Asia and Europe and Central Asian nomads. It has sometimes been viewed rather simplistically and it is important to realise the contributions to Asian and European civilisation which have been made - directly or indirectly by nomadic Central Asian cultures. I think the atrocities attributed to them have also been equalled - or indeed exceeded by 'civilised' peoples.
In the West we have misconceptions of Mongol, Avar, Hun etc. 'hordes' descending on and conquering countries - as a surprise. The realities were much more complex. Few people realise that Atilla the Hun was educated in Rome! Or that some of the Mongols were Christian (Nestorian) - and that attempts were made by the crusading nations to ally with them against the moslems. Venetian merchants traded with the Mongols - and knew exactly what was going on further East. Indeed it has been suggested that the state of Venice may well have allied with them if an invasion of Italy had been on the cards. The real history is much more fascinating than the popular cliches that exist in many peoples' minds - particularly in my country (Britain).
Historical events take on a very different perspective depending from which side you view them! Every nation has its heroes which were definately someone else's villians.
It seems that through history, there has been a 'difficult' relationship between settled peoples in Asia and Europe and Central Asian nomads. It has sometimes been viewed rather simplistically and it is important to realise the contributions to Asian and European civilisation which have been made - directly or indirectly by nomadic Central Asian cultures. I think the atrocities attributed to them have also been equalled - or indeed exceeded by 'civilised' peoples.
In the West we have misconceptions of Mongol, Avar, Hun etc. 'hordes' descending on and conquering countries - as a surprise. The realities were much more complex. Few people realise that Atilla the Hun was educated in Rome! Or that some of the Mongols were Christian (Nestorian) - and that attempts were made by the crusading nations to ally with them against the moslems. Venetian merchants traded with the Mongols - and knew exactly what was going on further East. Indeed it has been suggested that the state of Venice may well have allied with them if an invasion of Italy had been on the cards. The real history is much more fascinating than the popular cliches that exist in many peoples' minds - particularly in my country (Britain).
There's significant evidence that the Venetians *were* allied with the Mongols. "The Tatar Khan's Englishman" by Gabriel Ronay lays out part of that case, and the accounts of Marco Polo begin to actually make some sense in that light (and certainly nothing else does).
Hello Russ, and nice to meet you here. That is an intriguing idea. I wonder though how well Ronay managed to back it up? After all, it wouldn't seem very probable considering how Louis IX's proposal for an alliance was met with a rather cool and arrogant response on the part of the Mongols.
Fancy meeting you here... :)
Yes, but Louis != the Venetians! Judging by Joinville's account, Louis still thought Prester John was out there somewhere...
Yes, but Louis != the Venetians! Judging by Joinville's account, Louis still thought Prester John was out there somewhere...
Yup Russ, I have been thinking about that idea as well. It is an interesting hypothesis and would explain a thing or two, if only we could find sufficient evidence. I might try to take a look at that book to see what Ronay had to say about it.
Has anyone heard of the Kalmykya in Russia? Inhabitants are Mongol people
(Oirat-Torgut) and they are Europes only Tibetan Buddhists. Kalmykia is located to the west of the Wolga River & North of Dagestan bordering the Caspian sea.(Capital: Elista) Once they where fierce archers. I wonder if they have something like a Naadam festival that includes archery.I've met two Kalmyks in India where they studied Tibetan traditional medicine with the Tibetan community there. We talked a lot. There seems to be a revival of traditional Kalmyk culture, but progress is very slow as the country is very poor and they do not get much help from the Russian central Gvt.
Here is a Kalmykia travel story from the web:
http://www.russian-travel.net/lifestories3.htm
(Oirat-Torgut) and they are Europes only Tibetan Buddhists. Kalmykia is located to the west of the Wolga River & North of Dagestan bordering the Caspian sea.(Capital: Elista) Once they where fierce archers. I wonder if they have something like a Naadam festival that includes archery.I've met two Kalmyks in India where they studied Tibetan traditional medicine with the Tibetan community there. We talked a lot. There seems to be a revival of traditional Kalmyk culture, but progress is very slow as the country is very poor and they do not get much help from the Russian central Gvt.
Here is a Kalmykia travel story from the web:
http://www.russian-travel.net/lifestories3.htm
If I may add something to Jack Farrell's report on the decline of traditional archery of the nomads living in the former Soviet Union, there are data about traditional archery competitions among the Bashkyrds even at the end of the 1960's, organised in the frame of their national festival called Sabantuy (e.g.: J. Boros, L. Rapcsanyi: Vendegsegben ?seinknel ['Staying with Our Ancestors']. Gondolat, Budapest, 1975. pp. 194-195. in Hungarian). If somebody is looking for recent reports on the events of Sabantuy on the Internet, no archery competitions are mentioned, suggesting that the extinction of the Bashkyrd traditional archery (which was so famous in the ages of the Napoleonic wars) have just happened during the last three decades. If it was true, there can be a good news in it: some old people taking part in those archery competitons in the 60's probably are still alive (waiting for a bashkyrd Murat ?zveri? :wink: )