arc de bodoc
In a Crusade's source by XIIth cent. I've found this expression: "arc de bodoc", in French.
Does the English speaker people here in the forum, can confirm that bodoc means osage ?
So it can refers to an "osage bow". But does it's possible in XIIth century Europe (or Holy Land) that they used osage fo bows?
And, wath is the ethymology of bodoc ?
More, maybe the quote can it refers to the arabic "banduq", in such case they can means "banduq bow". I know that banduq was crossbow, but the text speaks both of "arc de bodoc" and "aurbalestre", so I exclude that the expression can refers to crossbow.
Any suggestion is appreciated.
Does the English speaker people here in the forum, can confirm that bodoc means osage ?
So it can refers to an "osage bow". But does it's possible in XIIth century Europe (or Holy Land) that they used osage fo bows?
And, wath is the ethymology of bodoc ?
More, maybe the quote can it refers to the arabic "banduq", in such case they can means "banduq bow". I know that banduq was crossbow, but the text speaks both of "arc de bodoc" and "aurbalestre", so I exclude that the expression can refers to crossbow.
Any suggestion is appreciated.
Amatuccio; Osage (wood) is a New World tree so it would have been all but impossible for a bow of this wood to have been used in the Crusades. The French named Osage wood-bois d'arc. It also seems remote that the French would have misspelled this as bodoc. I have seen it spelled as bodark, but this is a very primitive bastardization.
Why the French would have called Osage as "bow wood" has amazed me, since yew has been known to be the preeminent bow wood in Europe for thousands of years.
Osage is actually a plains tribe of Indians, who all carried yellow wood bows.
Maybe look for another meaning for bodoc. -j-
Why the French would have called Osage as "bow wood" has amazed me, since yew has been known to be the preeminent bow wood in Europe for thousands of years.
Osage is actually a plains tribe of Indians, who all carried yellow wood bows.
Maybe look for another meaning for bodoc. -j-
Ok Jack. I undestand that Osage is a New World wood, but I was amazed
by the circustance that in some english modern texts it's called "bodoc" as the terme in the French crousades source. So the problem is: why
Osage it's called also bodoc ?
by the circustance that in some english modern texts it's called "bodoc" as the terme in the French crousades source. So the problem is: why
Osage it's called also bodoc ?
"Bodoc", "bowdark", "bodark" etc. are all corruptions of the French name for osage, "Bois d'arc". It is certain that the European source from the 1100's does not speak about osage. Can't tell what the "bodoc" means there, though. There are many woods in Europe traditionally / locally called "bow wood", Laburnum and Black elderberry (Sambucus nigra) for example.
Tuukka
Tuukka
Mhhh...resuming:
1) osage it's called bodoc from "bois d'arc"
2) others bows woods was called "bois d'arc"
so, my source speaks about an "arc de bodoc" meaning
a bow made of a some kind of wood that was also called "bodoc" or "bois d'arc".
I thing the puzzle was solved.
Thanks
1) osage it's called bodoc from "bois d'arc"
2) others bows woods was called "bois d'arc"
so, my source speaks about an "arc de bodoc" meaning
a bow made of a some kind of wood that was also called "bodoc" or "bois d'arc".
I thing the puzzle was solved.
Thanks
Bodoc - the ending reminded me of the French former province of Languedoc (today Languedoc-Roussillon), an area along the Rhone stretching towards the Mediterranean, if I remember correctly, in the South of France, anyway.
Langue d'oc means "occitanian language, where people speak Occitanian".
So if we assume that like in bodark (which is an Anglo-American corruption, not a French one, esp. Louisiana, cf. http://bodoc.net/pictures/bodoctree/bodoctreepage.htm ), the "bo" is derived from bois (=wood), the term might read "Occitanian wood", i.e. a wood typical for, popular in, imported from, associated with, compared to (choose what you like) the Languedoc, its terrain, history or people.
Is it sure from the context they are talking about a bow? Could you perhaps quote the complete passage?
There are Romanian pages about Bodoc, seems to be a spa (mineral waters) and a Roman castle.
Langue d'oc means "occitanian language, where people speak Occitanian".
So if we assume that like in bodark (which is an Anglo-American corruption, not a French one, esp. Louisiana, cf. http://bodoc.net/pictures/bodoctree/bodoctreepage.htm ), the "bo" is derived from bois (=wood), the term might read "Occitanian wood", i.e. a wood typical for, popular in, imported from, associated with, compared to (choose what you like) the Languedoc, its terrain, history or people.
Is it sure from the context they are talking about a bow? Could you perhaps quote the complete passage?
There are Romanian pages about Bodoc, seems to be a spa (mineral waters) and a Roman castle.
The source is The Customs of Hospitallers Knights (Esgarts and Usances), so it is wrote about the end of XIIth cent in Palestine. The passage refers to the things that the Marshall of Order had to kept from death brothers.
There is a list that among other things say: "...toutes manieres d'armeures et de harnois de bestes, arc de bodoc, coutells de tablle, breviaires, sautiers, romains, calices de argent, toutes manieres de amures, auballestres..."
There is a list that among other things say: "...toutes manieres d'armeures et de harnois de bestes, arc de bodoc, coutells de tablle, breviaires, sautiers, romains, calices de argent, toutes manieres de amures, auballestres..."
This seems to be quite clearly a designation of wood. Arcs made of bodoc.
It would be advisable to get some experts on old French into this. Have you considered posting this query on http://webarcherie.com/forum/ ? You can post in English.
It would be advisable to get some experts on old French into this. Have you considered posting this query on http://webarcherie.com/forum/ ? You can post in English.
ok Sbartels, it can be a good idea.
If you enter "Languedoc" and "yew" into google, you come across interesting references like this:
"Apart from Durban, the only other sizable settlement in this terroir is Tuchan, on the slopes of Mont Tauch. This is a serious mountain, 917m (2800 ft) high -- its name comes from the Occitan word touch, meaning yew tree. Only a few of these trees, which presumably once covered the slopes, now remain. "
"The area havin connections to the Pyrennees (sp?), i.e. Spain which used to be a source of yew-staves, I could speculate that bodoc is another word for yew, so your text would talk about longbows."
Many other websites testify to an abundance of yew in the Languedoc.
It needn't bother you that French "if" (=yew) is completely unconnected to bodoc; cf "denim" for the cotton cloth used for jeans. There is no reference to cotton in the word, it is just "cloth from N?mes" (de N?mes), because that town was crucial to the production and export.
"Apart from Durban, the only other sizable settlement in this terroir is Tuchan, on the slopes of Mont Tauch. This is a serious mountain, 917m (2800 ft) high -- its name comes from the Occitan word touch, meaning yew tree. Only a few of these trees, which presumably once covered the slopes, now remain. "
"The area havin connections to the Pyrennees (sp?), i.e. Spain which used to be a source of yew-staves, I could speculate that bodoc is another word for yew, so your text would talk about longbows."
Many other websites testify to an abundance of yew in the Languedoc.
It needn't bother you that French "if" (=yew) is completely unconnected to bodoc; cf "denim" for the cotton cloth used for jeans. There is no reference to cotton in the word, it is just "cloth from N?mes" (de N?mes), because that town was crucial to the production and export.
Dear Sbartels,
your hypothesis about OC as Occitaine is plausible. I've found on Google
some reference about "bois d'Oc", but it don't explique the means.
I've consulted many French dictionnnaires (ancient and modern) but they don't report the word. Now I've posted on Webarcherie Forum, and I hope to receive some information
your hypothesis about OC as Occitaine is plausible. I've found on Google
some reference about "bois d'Oc", but it don't explique the means.
I've consulted many French dictionnnaires (ancient and modern) but they don't report the word. Now I've posted on Webarcherie Forum, and I hope to receive some information
The references I found for "bois d'Oc" are place names. "Bois" in this case means "forest" or "grove", as in the famous Bois de Boulogne.[/b]