mediterranean and thumb-draw on horseback?

He can do 5 arrows in 7.38 seconds while on gallop
..and hits the target with all of them.
whoelse is gonna do that with a thumb ring ?
;-)

Mediterranian draw is possible on horseback. But there are one or two horseback archery tricks that work better with a thumb draw.

The first is to grasp the arrow nocked against the grip with the bow hand so that the draw hand is free to do something else. (Using the Mediterranean draw, it is still possible; but you would have to have the arrow on the opposite side of the grip from 'normal'). The second trick is holding three arrows in the draw hand while you shoot.

Stephen Selby wrote:

The second trick is holding three arrows in the draw hand while you shoot.

Hi,
in the draw hand? Do you perhaps have a (close up) picture for that? Over here (Germany) the mediterranean draw ist more or less standard for horseback archery, but quite a few of us are trying out the thumb draw as one could potentially reload much faster as you don't have to "thread" the arrow through the bow, if you know what I mean. Only the problem is where to hold the other arrows (reloading from the quiver just isn't fast enough). People have suggested holding them in the bow hand like we usually do when shooting med-style, but vertical to the bow instead of horizontally. So it would interest me how to hold them in the draw hand without them getting in the way?

Thanks :D
Angela

P.S. Here's a clip of our last competition, with everybody using the mediterranean draw:
Mounted Archery Competition Storkow/Germany

If you shoot with the Mediterranean draw you can hold arrows in the draw hand with the thumb against the palm of the hand. It you shoot with the thumb draw, you can hold the arrows near the points with the little and ring fingers as the Japanese do. This is shown on lustre ware plates from Kashan in Iran.

However, the design of open quivers from the 13th century onward made this unnecessary because you could draw almost as fast from a quiver that only covered half the arrow.

Bede wrote:

you shoot with the thumb draw, you can hold the arrows near the points with the little and ring fingers as the Japanese do. This is shown on lustre ware plates from Kashan in Iran

Thanks! Do you perhaps have a link to a picture of one of those plates, as I still can's really visualize how this works. Drawing from a short quiver is probably a lot easier, but I find it slower and more fiddly when your eyes are on the target (particularly if you're turned round for the parthian shot). So I'm trying to find the ideal method which lets me reload as fast as possible with the thumb draw... The method you describe sounds very interesting, I think it would be worth giving it a try!
Greets
Angela

Angela,
I will take some pictures if I can. I think that the plate is somewhere on the net, but I have copies of it in books.

Short quivers set in the right position and at the correct angle are very easy to use, but many reconstructions have the straps in the wrong position for horseback use. I never look at the quiver when I draw an arrow. I have the straps set so that the quiver presents the shafts just where my hand falls when I reach for an arrow. Using Turkish style, the outside pocket and the main opening of the quiver allow you to have at least two types of arrows that are easy to find by feel.

Regarding the Parthian shot, I draw the arrow while facing forward and turn at the waist to complete the draw. Often Turkish archers wore a shield on their back while shooting. This meant they had some protection while facing away from their pursuers.

If I may, Angela below is a video I posted before. It shows Murat shooting on foot with 2 spare arrows in the draw hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNK-6Hn0uiw

Temren,
Murat is shooting very much as I have seen in the painted pottery illustrations. Personally, I feel that you get a better thumb lock by holding the arrows between the ring and small fingers because the middle and ring fingers can then provide a firmer support for the thumb.

Hi Bede,

My experience is, it doesnt really matter where or how many arrows you hold as long as you hold them very firmly and hold them a little further away from their tips. I for one am able to shoot with four spare arrows. Two between the little and ring fingers, two between the ring and middle fingers.

Temren,
I agree. With bows below 80 pounds, it is quite easy to hold four arrows in the way you suggest.

Thank you all very much, now I get a better picture of how this technique works. Now I just have to put it into practice (very fiddly if you're used to the mediterranean style, but I hope I'll learn... Someday :) )

Hello Angela,

It was Stephen Selby who first introduce me this technique when he was in Istanbul two years ago. On the way of reviving Turkish traditional archery we keep searching all available sources and last year we found a (picture of a) coin from Seljuks showing a mounted archer at full draw with two more arrows in the draw hand.

Although we're not sure whether the weaponary in Seljuk army was uniform, only a few different type of Turkic bows must have been used, including the ones with bulky-on-the back grips like the later Ottoman bows. Such a grip would not allow the archer to hold the arrows in he bow hand and of course a thumb release would make it easy and possible to load the bow that way.

After all, I'm still not sure how an archer who shoots with three fingers and hold the arrows in the bow hand would slip a broadhead-tipped arrow out of the palm. It seems only be possible with target or field points. Despite the fact that Native Americans have shot that way on buffalo hunts I find it quite difficult and unergonomic. It may be the "bird points" as the white Americans have named -the very narrow broadheads- which allowed them to load their bows from the bow hand. However, the depiction on this Seljuk coin is a hunting scene indicated by the arrow head (fork-like head for small game) and shows that broadheads can simply be shot when the arrows are held in the draw hand.

Here, you'll find an article of mine with the photograph of this coin.

http://www.turkishculture.org/pages.php ... ildID1=170

I have been shooting and teaching this technique for one year and we've tried that with broadhead tipped arrows as well. It works flawlessly. Since I'm not a rider I don't know how it feels on horseback but theoretically it's a good combination of thumb release which stabilize the arrow during hold-draw-release circle due to the pressure of index finger to the arrow.

Murat,
Your article is very comprehensive. The Seljuk coin is corroborated by some archers shown on metalwork as well as the Kashan plate I mentioned earlier in the thread. It looks like holding arrows in the drawing hand was very widespread among thumb ring users.

The American Indians used a much shorter draw on horseback than the Turks. Perhaps they did not grasp their bows as strongly as was the habit in the Middle East. This may have an effect on how comfortable it is to hold the arrows in the bow hand.

Thank you Bede.

That's right. Buffalo hunters have had short, sinew-backed, short-drawn and low poundage bows. The very short shooting distance and the small hunting points allow them to reach the vitals through ribs. Holding the grip firm or loose may have an effect on comfort but the main point I'm wondering is how they pull the broadhead-tipped arrows without cutting their fingers.

It is also a mystery to me what was the exact technique of the Indians. What I do know is that in pictures the plains Indians held the arrows diagonally to the bow in the bowhand with the points up. This is a common image.

Their contest was to see how many arrows could be kept in the air at one time. Five was a good average number, 7 is a record. A weak bow will not do this. Neighter will it cast an arrow completely through a bison, as was not uncommon.

If the arrows were held fletch up it would not be necessary to pull the arrow free of the hand, just feed the arrow down and draw in one motion. The nocks flared open widely and had good bulbous shape for pinch gripping with one or two fingers on the string for assistance.

Indians also hid on the side of the horse to avoid arrow fire and it was nonsensical to kill the horse since he was the great prize. Indians of Texas could fire a bow over the back of the horse while hanging off the side. -j-

Hanging off the side of the horse is what cirit players do to protect themselves from thrown cirits. But shooting a bow in this position sounds unbelievable. At least, the cirit players have one hand on the saddle to hold theirselves.

With low-poundage bows I didn't mean sissy weights but as far as I know they were of 47-60# of draw weight (please correct me if I'm wrong), and they are not so heavy compared to Central Asian bows fired on horseback. And of course, even at the same poundage their arrows' energy should be also lower than that of Asian riders because of the shorter power stroke. Anyway, such (comparably) lower wegiht bows are capable to pass thru even such a monsterous animal if no bone is hit.

North American Indians who hunted bison on horseback generally used arrows with foreshafts, if the arrows were made from cane. Even when they used wooden arrows, they didn't draw them for their full length. It would not be unusual for more than 10 cm of the arrow to be out in front of the bow.

Judging from the accounts of buffalo hunting, they did not have to shoot many arrows to bring a buffalo down. Riding up close with an 80 pound bow and shooting accurately is a very effective way to kill a large animal with these provisos. Your horse ahs to be very well trained and you have to be very brave and skillful.

I have met at least one Native American who has done this and he was quite specific about the danger and the skill of man and horse is a talk he gave.

The games for keeping many arrows in the air at once were conducted on foot.

Taybugha mentioned shooting under a horse's neck while riding. One of my friends accomplished it while the horse was standing still, but I don't know of anyone doing it on a galloping horse recently. The draw was shortened and the angle only permitted close shots.

I had a very senior Comanche friend whose uncle worked for a wild west show and demonstrated shooting bison from horseback. The bison was let into a field and the Comanche pursued with a "Buffalo pony", a bow and one arrow. He let the bison get to the front on the left side, aimed in back of the last rib shooting forward. When he released the arrow the horse would veer sharply right to avoid being gored. If the shot was true, to the lungs and possibly the heart, the buffalo would fall to his knees and be unable to get back up.

Indians would not trade a buffalo pony for anything. It has been said that if the target animal were just picked out the pony would do everything but shoot it!

Indian bows look less formidable than asiatic type bows, I think we must assume they were so. But there are no reproductions that I know which are as perfectly made as the originals.

Shooting cane arrows is prehistoric except for a very few groups. The bows could be drawn as far as one dared.

Catlin painted Comanches shooting off the side of a horse but others reported it also. He also painted an arrow shooting contest. -j-

Regarding the Plains Indian, note that we seem to be discussing buffalo hunting. Combat might require longer distances (and therefore longer draws).

As to strength of bow, remember, the Plains Indians didn't regularly have to penetrate metal armor.

Jack,

For hunting large prey, I had always imagined a broad head that would create a lot of bleeding. Did the first nations use them? All I have seen is very small stone heads.

S

I would like to point out that Am. indians tribes represent a wide spectrum of subsistence strategies; warfare techniques, culture and language.

About half of all plains arrows had their hardwood shafts sharpened like pencils. These are referred to as unarmed arrows. Hamm or Laubin retell a Texas Ranger holding a dying friend killed at long distance by an Apache unarmed arrow.

Most stone points called arrowheads are really dart points as their period of use lasted from app. 14, 000 Bc to about 1800 Ad whereas archery was from 0 AD to about 1900. Metal points were used almost exclusively from the introduction of metal (app 1492- 1700 AD). Therefore stone points are very early historic or prehistoric.

Metal points came in a seemingly endless variety of size and shape but were basically all with a pointed tip, unlike, say Mongol.

For a plains Indian, hunting bison was strikingly similar to warfare in technique and identical in equipment. -j-

In an account from Maximillian/Bodmer, a Mandan chief and a Cheyenne chief single eachother out as formidable opponents, They circle eachother counter clockwise on horseback at close range giving them both the advantage of a right handed archer. Their arrows manage to wound eachother only in the legs and shots to the horses. They dismount and fight hand to hand, the Cheyenne wounding the Mandan on the hand with a knife. The Mandan retaliates with a tomahawk to the head of the Cheyenne killing him.

The Mandan keeps the Cheyenne's scalp, clothes, weapons and horse. In the Mandan's belief, he keeps the Cheyenne's spirit and owns it for eternity.

At the time of the telling of the story the Mandan had 47 war exploits. Many have read this account. -j-

Murat ?zveri wrote:

Hello Angela,

It was Stephen Selby who first introduce me this technique when he was in Istanbul two years ago. On the way of reviving Turkish traditional archery we keep searching all available sources and last year we found a (picture of a) coin from Seljuks showing a mounted archer at full draw with two more arrows in the draw hand.

Although we're not sure whether the weaponary in Seljuk army was uniform, only a few different type of Turkic bows must have been used, including the ones with bulky-on-the back grips like the later Ottoman bows. Such a grip would not allow the archer to hold the arrows in he bow hand and of course a thumb release would make it easy and possible to load the bow that way.

After all, I'm still not sure how an archer who shoots with three fingers and hold the arrows in the bow hand would slip a broadhead-tipped arrow out of the palm. It seems only be possible with target or field points. Despite the fact that Native Americans have shot that way on buffalo hunts I find it quite difficult and unergonomic. It may be the "bird points" as the white Americans have named -the very narrow broadheads- which allowed them to load their bows from the bow hand. However, the depiction on this Seljuk coin is a hunting scene indicated by the arrow head (fork-like head for small game) and shows that broadheads can simply be shot when the arrows are held in the draw hand.

Here, you'll find an article of mine with the photograph of this coin.

http://www.turkishculture.org/pages.php ... ildID1=170

I have been shooting and teaching this technique for one year and we've tried that with broadhead tipped arrows as well. It works flawlessly. Since I'm not a rider I don't know how it feels on horseback but theoretically it's a good combination of thumb release which stabilize the arrow during hold-draw-release circle due to the pressure of index finger to the arrow.

You are right, because Mr. Selby is the Master of Sinology. The way to hold arrows by right drawing hand, is mentioned in "Yili Dayili", which is regarded as one of famous Classical Chinese ritual books. However, the background is not for mounted, but the ritual with the dinner, which is similiar with Japanese "Gong Dao".

He is great, and you too! :D

The fact that there are illustrations of archers shooting from horseback with arrows in the drawing hand suggests that archers would take advantage of what they knew in one area of shooting and apply it to another. However, the lack of such illustrations in general suggest that either it was not thought artistically interesting or was not that common. It would be a mistake to think that artists were like modern war correspondents. They probably rarely saw military exercises. They were probably more likely to be witnesses to hunting than war.

Bede wrote:

The fact that there are illustrations of archers shooting from horseback with arrows in the drawing hand suggests that archers would take advantage of what they knew in one area of shooting and apply it to another. However, the lack of such illustrations in general suggest that either it was not thought artistically interesting or was not that common. It would be a mistake to think that artists were like modern war correspondents. They probably rarely saw military exercises. They were probably more likely to be witnesses to hunting than war.

I added two pictures sent by a friend who thinks this way of holding arrows while using mediterranean draw was common in the turqic times. I admit its a long period and many different tribes and peoples may be subsumed. He affirmes especially during Taybugha's times this holding of arrows was state of the art.
We all know the nice timurid horse archer and it looks a little bit that him also is holding extra arrows in his drawing hand.

I got two questions, first is this holding of extra arrows the way from the 9th - 13th century in the turqish military? Second did they where using generally thumb or mediteranean draw? Maybe an extra one, the holding of the arrows in the bow hand seems rather prehistoric (see: stone carvings in the sahara and some stone age african tribes - Sorry couldn't find the partian picture mentionned above.)

Thanks for help

As a matter of military tactics, I expect that the Chinese approach (developed under the influence of Turkish mercenaries in the Yuan period) would have been widely adopted. That is: you would not leave your hands so severely encumbered. The arrows should stay in the quiver and be drawn one-by-one.

I agree with Stephen. Once shorter open quivers came into use, the habit of holding arrows in the drawing hand died out with thumb ring users. The Seljuks still used the technique, but they were still familiar with closed quivers and that might have been why they kept the practice.

I have only seen people holding the arrows in the drawing hand using a Mediterranean release from ancient art. Specifically there are Egyptian bas-reliefs of infantry archers doing it and Assyrian chariot warriors too in the palace reliefs.

When drawing with a thumb ring, usually the Middle Eastern pictures show one arrow on the bow and two in the hand. Shooting arrows in groups of three is very widespread. In a charge, there probably wasn't time to shoot more before you had to wheel away.