Japanese Yumi with the range of over 400 meters?

Hi Sinsigel,

my Yumi has little over 19 kilogramm drawweight at my drawlength of 97cm. My targetarrows weight is 30 gramm by 100 cm length.
I tested it for fun some time ago, dont know if I had the optimal angle, but I shot ~ 130 meter. Too another normal shootingdistance in Kyudo, is 60 meter distance called "Enteki". No problem to get the arrow, with a light angle up, in the target.
If I take a lighter arrow (Enteki-arrow) with narrow feathers, I think 180 meter, or more, is possible.

Besides there is a traditional shooting called "Toshiya" since early 17th century in a temple called "Sanjusangendo" (33 niches) in Kyoto. It was held on the veranda, which is 120 meter long, 5,6 meter high, 2 meter wide, on left side open and on the right side the 33 niches. So you can imagine, how flat the arrow has to fly, to reach the other end of the veranda. Bows from 30 kilo up and very light arrows were used. It was a 24 hours-shooting! The record (until today) is held by an 18 years old samurai in late 17th century, with 13053 arrows he shot and 8133 hit the target.

Since a long time they dont shoot anymore at this special place, because this temple is listed as a historical monument and many arrows landed in the roofbeams and destroyed it.
A few years ago a bowmaker and an archer got the permission, to test this by protecting the roofbeams with a net. I think it was the 12th arrow which reached the hole distance.

As far as I know, 450 meter is right for the farest shot with a Yumi.

Peter

Sinsigel,

I think I know the program you are talking about; it was a 역사 스페셜 (History Special) a few years ago that pitted Japanese bows against Korean bows. As anyone here can attest, I am a Korean archery enthusiast to the nth degree. However, I found that particular episode to be extremely biased in how it was set up: the bows that were chosen, the people who were shooting, and even how the bows were shot was very skewed. The whole purpose of the show was to prove Korean bows were superior to Japanese bows. I even commented on that show on my Korean club's discussion board and other members agreed.

I would like to have seen evenly matched bows and arrows shot by masters of both disciplines.


T

I also heard about the Toshiya contest of Sanjusangendo in Kyoto, but I didn't know that heay bows and special light flight arrow were used. Where is that(the use of special bows and light arrows) stated?

Sinsigel,

there is an aphorism we use here in Austria, that says: "paper is patient". So if you need a proof, you have to visit Sanjusangendo; inside the temple, on the backside of the Buddha-statues, is a little exhibition of bows and arrows which were used for this event. And believe me, they look very heavy!
Too they are different in shape of bows which are used in Kyudo. The lower part is more straight and stiff. And the arrows are very thin with short and narrow feathers and have a conic (aerodynamic) shape.

Summary: each culture has the equipment nearly ideal for its use, otherwise this kind of bow would not survive over centuries.

Peter

Thomas Duvernay wrote:

I would like to have seen evenly matched bows and arrows shot by masters of both disciplines.

Good idea is to make "universal flight arrow" or set of "universal flight arrows" with diferent weight. I think that korean bow can shoot turkish flight arrow further than turkish bow of same strenght.

The concept of a universal flight arrow for different types of bows is flawed. Japanese bows draw from 34 to 40 inches depending on the archers height, Korean bows draw from 31 to 36 inches and Turkish bows draw about 28 inches.

Therefore a Japanese arrow shot from a Turkish bow would be under drawn and inefficient. The brace height of a Korean bow is too low to use a siper, so you couldn't draw a Turkish flight arrow far enough to get much energy into it.

In some forms of flight archery people used the same bow and arrow to compare their shooting skills as opposed to the equipment. However, you cannot make one arrow that would shoot efficiently from bows as different as Korean, Japanese and Turkish bows

How about that arrow tube used by korean archers? Short arrow guided trough tube. That can work for korean and turkish bow but not with yumi because there is rotation of bow in handle.

How about using pellet and modified string.

If you use an arrow guide, how far would you draw the arrow? The problem remains the same. With an arrow guide of the length appropriate to the longest arrow, you can shoot a short arrow from all the bows being discussed (the rotation on the Japanese bow can easily be repressed). However, what does it tell you about the performance of the bow?

You would have to test the bow with its standard flight arrow and then compare how it shoots the short guide arrow. Each bow would be tested and the comparisons written down. With each bow, there would be a guide arrow that performed best, but which one do you choose to be your universal flight arrow.

I shoot with an arrow guide and with a siper. There is no one arrow that performs the best for all bows used with these devices. You have to pick one that gets the most out of the acceleration of the bow and the physical weight (mass) of its limbs. Even though you could shoot the same short arrow with each of the bows, it would not give you the comparative information you are looking for.

I don't take much notice of 'which is better' arguments, I am sure that all bow types have their merits being as they still exist.

400 or 450 meters with wooden longbow like yumi is something like fairy tale. We speak warbows right?
A drawlenght with heavy bow will be limited to that of an archers frame limitations and modern superlong and artificial draw that kjudoka use is of no use with bow of 100# or more as the frame wont alow it and wrist of draw hand is too weak in this modern sporting and formalised style.
Also you get significant frame compression when drawing these weights.

The speeeds needed for achieving that distance is something over 300 fps or even more.

I dont care who says what, I want to hear who shot it and where. Yumi is something like "I dont have decent bow wood so I use what I have and laminate" design, its really not superior to properly made wooden bows particulary when other laminated wood constructions are used.

Also the vibrations are issue with yumi.

Stanley with his long draw 33?? shoots 50 gram flight arrow from 160# around 350 yards. That is good paralel if you want to look upon a warbow performance. Its shot with single stave bow yes, but I have yet to see a proof that yumi shoot better than other wooden bows.


Is there a modern kjudoka using a warbow weight bow? Who is that?
I suppose there is no such person, particulary because modern kjudo is unsuitable for shooting such bows.


Yes yes - shooting in a relativelly low corridor would be difficult, to get actually point blanc,without too much elevation - but again with a 30 kg long draw type of bow with light target arrow there is no big deal to get that kind of performance from just about anything

I m getting around 250 meters with run of the mill laminated wood english longbow 65#/30?? and target arrow with hellical (!) fletching. With bit of tweaking this kit would do tha task just about and its nothing special really.

(But off course numbers of arrows the japanese shot during the marathon is staggering).


Im not interested in what is "better" bow, but a realistic approach is needed when a hersay performance of any bow is judged.

A warbow is not a flight bow. Think of common traits of designs.

So is there somebody actually able to draw 100# yumi with a warbow arrow and shoot it effectivelly and what kind of distance he gets?

Is there a special yumi for flight contest only? I doubt it.

So when describing performance it would be nice to hear something solid, particulary when speaking about traits of bow which basically nobody use and shoots today (warbow weight yumi)



Jaro


"I don't take much notice of 'which is better' arguments, I am sure that all bow types have their merits being as they still exist."

- That is golden mean fallacy. The bow of "all types" exist because enthusiasist like us build them and shoot them, not because there is use for bow in modern society. Bows of "all designs" didnt surelly survived because they are all equally good. Its not even correct statement to start with as there is lots of bow designs which became absolutelly extinct and which we reverse engeneer with greatest difficullty and much of the research.

Kjudohund " -my Yumi has little over 19 kilogramm drawweight at my drawlength of 97cm. My targetarrows weight is 30 gramm by 100 cm length.
I tested it for fun some time ago, dont know if I had the optimal angle, but I shot ~ 130 meter"


- I can go to forrest and cut down first ash I find and extract equal or BETTER performance out of simple stickbow with shorter drawlenght.
There is nothing exceptional in yumi performance if you compare it to other wooden bows.

I made while ago a maple backed with ash longbow around 14 kg (30#) at 82 cm (32??) for an reenactor here. That actually shot 25 gram arrow (I think it was one sold by Grozer so run of the mill target arrow) some 150 meters.

So if we look upon a parallel of a decent wooden bow realistically yumi of 100# should be capable of shooting war arrow of some 800 grn at 200 meters or so and probably 280 with 500 grn arrow, but yumi has quite thick tips if you compare it with other effective wooden bows.

A reflexed and recurved flemish medieval bow made with prestressed wooden laminations (same as modern perry reflex) , drawn some 32?? to be effective, shoots around 240 yrds with "livery" 600 grn arrows and around 300 yrds with flight (but that is realy a flight arrow). That is for 80# bow.


So think realistically and doubt what you hear.


Jaro

Sagitarius Boemorum,

what a beautiful name for such emotional line!

Where did you read in my post, that a yumi does a better performance than other bows? Sinsigel wrote 80m, so I wrote my experience I did with a Target-Yumi and too I wrote I did this for fun and not because I have the ambition to shoot an arrow as far as possible. If this is yours, ok.

You doubt what I hear, than read it in "Feliks F. Hoff: Kyudo - Die Kunst des japanischen Bogenschiessens", Verlag Weinmann.

I am an enthusiast in doing Kyudo and live good not to offend other people who shoot other kinds of bows.

Peter

P.s.: Too I am very interested in Turkish Archery and -bowbuilding.

Oh Peter I did not wanted to attack you.
Neither did I wanted to imply you wrote that Yumi performs better than any other wooden bows.
Sorry, I have particulary aggresive writting style, lots of people cannot take, but I m in personall contact a fluffy animal really.

I only wanted to draw a parallel to other heavy weight wooden bows of effective construction. Particulary the flemish bow is intriquing because its long narrow prestressed lamination recurve with 4?? handle setback.

The problems I have with some claims of yumi performance is that of engeneering one. We are talking of 7? bows, lots of what is stored gets spent only to accelerate the limbs.

I think the performance of it is demonised and exagerated greatlly as with many oriental weapons or other things like swords and fencing.

I will attempt to get a copy of the german book and read that red herring.

Thanks for info about target yumi performance, that itself puts a perspective on the whole thing.

Jaro

I think that you should take in to consideration that modern Japanese target bows are designed for modern target ranges. Japanese target ranges are short by the standards of many other traditions. Bowyers build bows for their purpose.

The long draw of Japanese bows gives a long power stroke. The heavy limbs impair velocity. Many of the Japanese arrow heads I have examined are quite heavy. I have seen armour piercing arrow heads with tangs that would have reached halfway down the arrows. The arrows made with these heads would not have traveled fast from any bow, but with a Japanese bow they would have had a large amount of kinetic energy.

Shooting once with a Japanese archer at a layered cardboard target, the other archers (Western) and I (using a Korean bow in the Turkish style) noticed how much farther the Japanese target arrows penetrated the target. It averaged 20 inches farther than ours.

That is exactly what I m saing Bede. It stores lots of energy, but the limb recovery speed is rather low. Good for warbow, poor for flight bow.

I wonder how long will be a drawlenght of yumi with a weight of 100# or more as the wrist position so far and so high is very weak. With these weight the frame is limiting factor as well as shoulder compression.

I imagine 32?? would be average.....rather than 35??.


Jaro

Bede:

Did anybody try using those arrows and bow on a hardened target, e.g. hardened leather, any form of metal replica armor?

The arrows had standard Japanese target points, thin shells of brass, and were unsuitable for shooting at hard targets.

I have some Japanese armour-piercing arrow heads that I was thinking of mounting on arrows and testing. However, my skill at making bamboo arrows hasn't reach the level of making proper bamboo war arrows yet.

I think the idea that Japanese war arrows may have been around 32 inches is fair. The Japanese accounts though speak of large arrows. For instance in the story of Yoshitsune fighting at Sumiyoshi and Daimotsu, ther is this description:

To his three-man bow he affixed a humming bulb arrow thirteen hands and three finger-breadths long.

Admittedly, this arrow was supposed to have decapitated Teshima with its forked head! I assume it was meant to be a very large arrow to the contemporary readers. However, in defense of the descriptions in the book, I can say that they describe in detail the archery action including descriptions of bows, arrows and where in the quiver the arrows sat.

[quote="Bede"]Shooting once with a Japanese archer at a layered cardboard target, the other archers (Western) and I (using a Korean bow in the Turkish style) noticed how much farther the Japanese target arrows penetrated the target. It averaged 20 inches farther than ours.[/quote]


That is an interesting example showing how well the arrow would perform when shot from appropriate bow. Did the other archers shot Japanese arrow with their bows at that "experiment"?

The nocks of the Japanese arrows were too narrow for the strings of the Western bows. My experience of drawing long arrows partially on shorter draw bows is uniformly bad. Their spine is affected and they are usually too heavy for the draw length.

I must admit that I do not fully understand famous energy storing thing. Shouldn't the bow for maximum efficiency have minimal limb mass + maximum draw length? If so, why are yumis made so long? I guess draw of the same length with also the same draw weight could be achieved with a shorter bow :?:

In a world where bows were designed to one standard with particular goals in mind, you would be right. However, many cultures developed their bow designs over centuries by making small changes to existing designs. There was no pressure for major change until your neighbours started using bows that out ranged you or were more effective against your armour.

In the development of archery equipment, history and environment are more important than design. The Japanese developed a bow that was appropriate for their climate and for their style of hunting and warfare. Sometimes bows ended they way they are by accident. This doesn't mean that people didn't try to improve their equipment, but it was probably on a local level rather than on a national level.

Using straight selfbows (Simon Stanley) to prove what was possible with Japanese bows in terms of cast is faulty. Japanese bows are made of hardened bamboo, laminated and severely reflexed, closer to hornbows than selfbows in their capacity to store energy and produce arrow velocities.

Some years ago a yumi shooter posted here the chrono results he obtained with recreational draw weights and heavy target arrows. A 44# bamboo yumi put 185fps into a 540 grain arrow, way over any self bow shooting over 12 grains per pound, while lighter (380gr.) arrows reached 206fps - a 270-yarder with low-cropped fletching and appropriate FOC.

No one is claiming the Japanese flight records were made with standard warbows. Just like 18th century Brits, I am sure the Japanese, too, made flight bows subtly different from ordinary bows: lower in mass, lesser in safety margins, with just a tad too light strings... and much faster.

What would a 90# Yumi, made with the goal of utmost cast, do with a flight arrow?

The traditional "full distance" in Japanese archery is 436 meters, shot using a flight arrow made from a one-year old bamboo shoot. The present Yumi flight record is 450 meters, and shot by Yamaha Gumbe (Stein 1988: 7.)

I think that you all forget dinamic forces. Dinamic forces are more inportant than static f/d curve.