My first feeble attempt at bamboo arrows.
This started with me trying to straighten bamboo cane
with a candle and oil as described at "Ferret's Archery page" here:
http://groups.msn.com/ferretsarcheryweb ... rrows.msnw
I started with what we had in the shed and chose from bamboo cane
from some garden market (DIY). The 6 pieces I picked where not all
uniform in diameter. I.e. they could vary from 8 mm in one end too 10 mm
in the other (one where 9 mm -> 11 mm and ended up too weak after sanding).
One of the canes where of a different spieces/sort than the others in that
it's colour was green and it was straighter and more uniform in diameter all over.
Furthermore it was notably lighter in weight than the others.
As of now I have only testet two of the arrows. One "the green one" performs well.
The other one would have performed much better if I had paid attention to placing the
nock correctly. In Stephen Selby's "Chines Archery" there's an explanation of
"the sunny- /shadowy-side" of bamboo (one beeing denser than the other) and placing
the nock in relation to this.
By change I think I have managed to place the nock exactly contrary to what is recommended
(wan't do that again). This arrow drags to the same side as the cock feather (which accidentily
was placed on the softer side of the cane).
I haven't yet weighed the arrows and seen how all of them behave.
The two I have tested I have shoot both from longbow and my Samick SKB (40#). With the Samick I
have tried with both finger- and thumb-release (arrow passing over hand or thumb accordingly).
All of the shafts are approximately 8 mm after sanding.
[external image]
The shafts closer up:
[external image]
Next time I will try to pick better materials, be more attentive to detail and so forth.
I therefore have som questions to you who have more experience with bamboo arrows than I have.
My apologies if these questions are strangely formulated.
- How uniform in diameter is normally a cane one select for arrow? I mean there is a limit for how
much sanding one can do on a bamboo cane.
- When sanding these canes they become lighter (the heaviest part beeing the outer layer, correct?).
Normally I would use the (former) "thick side" at the point but if I have sanded that part down it
becomes lighter than the rear of the shaft and this would affect the balance of the arrow. Does one
turn the shaft around and use the heavier and more "unsanded" end at the point sometimes?
- I think I have seen references to tapered cane shaft. How much taper is normal here or is this
just possible with special types of bamboo?
- Do you just flex the arrow between your fingers to determine the soft or denser side of the cane
(I am not sure if I am up to the "water test" from the Qi arrow makers, mentioned in Selbys "Chinese Archery")
or is there a better way?
with a candle and oil as described at "Ferret's Archery page" here:
http://groups.msn.com/ferretsarcheryweb ... rrows.msnw
I started with what we had in the shed and chose from bamboo cane
from some garden market (DIY). The 6 pieces I picked where not all
uniform in diameter. I.e. they could vary from 8 mm in one end too 10 mm
in the other (one where 9 mm -> 11 mm and ended up too weak after sanding).
One of the canes where of a different spieces/sort than the others in that
it's colour was green and it was straighter and more uniform in diameter all over.
Furthermore it was notably lighter in weight than the others.
As of now I have only testet two of the arrows. One "the green one" performs well.
The other one would have performed much better if I had paid attention to placing the
nock correctly. In Stephen Selby's "Chines Archery" there's an explanation of
"the sunny- /shadowy-side" of bamboo (one beeing denser than the other) and placing
the nock in relation to this.
By change I think I have managed to place the nock exactly contrary to what is recommended
(wan't do that again). This arrow drags to the same side as the cock feather (which accidentily
was placed on the softer side of the cane).
I haven't yet weighed the arrows and seen how all of them behave.
The two I have tested I have shoot both from longbow and my Samick SKB (40#). With the Samick I
have tried with both finger- and thumb-release (arrow passing over hand or thumb accordingly).
All of the shafts are approximately 8 mm after sanding.
[external image]
![[external image]](http://losnegaard.net/bue1/5_a.jpg){kind=link}
The shafts closer up:
[external image]
![[external image]](http://losnegaard.net/bue1/5_s.jpg){kind=link}
Next time I will try to pick better materials, be more attentive to detail and so forth.
I therefore have som questions to you who have more experience with bamboo arrows than I have.
My apologies if these questions are strangely formulated.
- How uniform in diameter is normally a cane one select for arrow? I mean there is a limit for how
much sanding one can do on a bamboo cane.
- When sanding these canes they become lighter (the heaviest part beeing the outer layer, correct?).
Normally I would use the (former) "thick side" at the point but if I have sanded that part down it
becomes lighter than the rear of the shaft and this would affect the balance of the arrow. Does one
turn the shaft around and use the heavier and more "unsanded" end at the point sometimes?
- I think I have seen references to tapered cane shaft. How much taper is normal here or is this
just possible with special types of bamboo?
- Do you just flex the arrow between your fingers to determine the soft or denser side of the cane
(I am not sure if I am up to the "water test" from the Qi arrow makers, mentioned in Selbys "Chinese Archery")
or is there a better way?
Stig; congratulations, those are respectable looking arrows. Here are some tips. I grow bamboo and have made bamboo arrows since I was a kid. (more than a few years)
Species means a lot. There are 1200 kinds of bamboo and only a few are worth working on. Arundinaria is best, Pseudo Sasa Japonica is a close second, Sasa coreansis is just as good, Phragmites is historically the most common grass arrow, but much weaker than the others.
Collect the prettiest shafts only, several years old, dry for months. Those gardening type bamboos are incidently arundinaria, the strongest, but not the easiest.
The big decision is whether to make a self nock above the node, between the nodes or to insert a wood nock plug and where. Here is my discovery. If all shafts in a group look somewhat like eachother and they weigh the same, they are a set. The proof is to work an identification into the design and track the individual progress with out looking to see which arrow is being shot.
To check the weight you will have to cut many shafts to the same length and weigh them all and mark the weights onto then. I like the initial weight to be within one or two grams spread at the most.
Forget the oil. Bamboo already is full of wax which comes out with proper heating. You dont need to cook them to straighten them. If you leave scorch marks, they have gotten too hot. Use some gas stove flame on low with the shaft 6-8 inches above the flame and keep it moving.
Do not alter the taper or shape of the overall shaft for the reason you discovered. The thick end is the point for most all arrows. But do take off the thin skin so that glue, paint and finishes will adhere and for an even look.
Choose eastern motifs. The shaft is only half the arrow. The fletchings and lashings are the other half. If you have never started from whole feathers, are still using some prepared turkey fletchings, then you are stuck at arrowmaking 101. There are people hybridising birds just for their feathers out there, domestic birds. Match fine shafts with fine feathers.
But one does not need to start with a set, that is a large obstacle. Start with a matched pair or just one nice arrow. A 20 gram shaft will suit most, 22-26 for a big arrow, strong bow, 30 grams will kill a rhino. I think the sunny side argument was meant to throw you off, like collecting moonbeams. -j-
Species means a lot. There are 1200 kinds of bamboo and only a few are worth working on. Arundinaria is best, Pseudo Sasa Japonica is a close second, Sasa coreansis is just as good, Phragmites is historically the most common grass arrow, but much weaker than the others.
Collect the prettiest shafts only, several years old, dry for months. Those gardening type bamboos are incidently arundinaria, the strongest, but not the easiest.
The big decision is whether to make a self nock above the node, between the nodes or to insert a wood nock plug and where. Here is my discovery. If all shafts in a group look somewhat like eachother and they weigh the same, they are a set. The proof is to work an identification into the design and track the individual progress with out looking to see which arrow is being shot.
To check the weight you will have to cut many shafts to the same length and weigh them all and mark the weights onto then. I like the initial weight to be within one or two grams spread at the most.
Forget the oil. Bamboo already is full of wax which comes out with proper heating. You dont need to cook them to straighten them. If you leave scorch marks, they have gotten too hot. Use some gas stove flame on low with the shaft 6-8 inches above the flame and keep it moving.
Do not alter the taper or shape of the overall shaft for the reason you discovered. The thick end is the point for most all arrows. But do take off the thin skin so that glue, paint and finishes will adhere and for an even look.
Choose eastern motifs. The shaft is only half the arrow. The fletchings and lashings are the other half. If you have never started from whole feathers, are still using some prepared turkey fletchings, then you are stuck at arrowmaking 101. There are people hybridising birds just for their feathers out there, domestic birds. Match fine shafts with fine feathers.
But one does not need to start with a set, that is a large obstacle. Start with a matched pair or just one nice arrow. A 20 gram shaft will suit most, 22-26 for a big arrow, strong bow, 30 grams will kill a rhino. I think the sunny side argument was meant to throw you off, like collecting moonbeams. -j-
I have 2 dozen shafts, That are drying now. I was wondering on what grit sand paper did you use on the bamboo.
Also I thought they looked good.
Also I thought they looked good.
After several rounds of straightening over several days, I remove the bulge at the nodes with a piece of #80 beltsander cloth, 1x8" glued to a stick. This is used like a plane. The arrow shaft is laying on a very flat surface; one hand turns it by increments, the other abrades. Then the skin goes, same way. Then sand slightly by hand with #100, always with the grain.
This surface will now accept finish, paint or glue. I like to do the nocks before decorating. The nocks MUST be lashed, at the node or otherwise.
This surface will now accept finish, paint or glue. I like to do the nocks before decorating. The nocks MUST be lashed, at the node or otherwise.
Jack: thank you for an informative answer.
All fully noted here.
In my book on bamboo (which only deal with some chinese genera and species)
"arundinaria" is listed with several sub-groups. Is there any particular group
you prefer?
The nameless bunch I would get at a garden market here are those slightly heavy, yellowish
with a hard and smooth (almost shiny)surface. It not much information to go on but
does that sound like "arundinaria"?
The "grey/green" shaft I had might not be from the garden market here but be a left over
from some we've brought from China.
I also see I need a larger selection of shafts if I should try to make a set.
I thought about the placement of nocks this time. My selection of shafts didn't
give much of a choice though so I got to test nocks both above and below a node. :-)
My nocks are cut in the shaft but I first drilled the end hole to 4 mm and inserted a
4 cm dowel with some glue as reinforcement. All nocks are lashed afterwards.
You then let the arrow shaft be thickest at the point and then naturally taper towards
the rear rather then forcing the shaft to be uniform by sanding?
Now I will try these and see how they behave and then experiment with making one
or pairs of good arrows while I practice.
I agree on the "design and fletching advice.
All fully noted here.
In my book on bamboo (which only deal with some chinese genera and species)
"arundinaria" is listed with several sub-groups. Is there any particular group
you prefer?
The nameless bunch I would get at a garden market here are those slightly heavy, yellowish
with a hard and smooth (almost shiny)surface. It not much information to go on but
does that sound like "arundinaria"?
The "grey/green" shaft I had might not be from the garden market here but be a left over
from some we've brought from China.
I also see I need a larger selection of shafts if I should try to make a set.
I thought about the placement of nocks this time. My selection of shafts didn't
give much of a choice though so I got to test nocks both above and below a node. :-)
My nocks are cut in the shaft but I first drilled the end hole to 4 mm and inserted a
4 cm dowel with some glue as reinforcement. All nocks are lashed afterwards.
You then let the arrow shaft be thickest at the point and then naturally taper towards
the rear rather then forcing the shaft to be uniform by sanding?
Now I will try these and see how they behave and then experiment with making one
or pairs of good arrows while I practice.
I agree on the "design and fletching advice.
My brut way of sanding was done by inserting one end of bamboo in to an
electric drill, then folding sanding paper (#80) into this:
[external image]
I then start the drill and slide it up and down the shaft, applying pressure by
squeezing.
This is how I make wooden shafts; first by hand plane and then I "drill them smooth".
Jack's gentler approach to sanding is probably much more suitable for bamboo.
electric drill, then folding sanding paper (#80) into this:
[external image]
![[external image]](http://losnegaard.net/bue1/bp/6sk.jpg){kind=link}
I then start the drill and slide it up and down the shaft, applying pressure by
squeezing.
This is how I make wooden shafts; first by hand plane and then I "drill them smooth".
Jack's gentler approach to sanding is probably much more suitable for bamboo.
Bamboo arrows should come with a safety warning. :shock:
You need to carefully inspect them every few shots for possible splits along the length. This may be especially true where bamboo has been lying in garden sheds or garden centres and dried out completely.
If they fail when being shot, they can send off splinters that can harm eyes and hands of the shooter.
You need to carefully inspect them every few shots for possible splits along the length. This may be especially true where bamboo has been lying in garden sheds or garden centres and dried out completely.
If they fail when being shot, they can send off splinters that can harm eyes and hands of the shooter.
Good point.
You are absolutely rigth. Those splinters are like carbonfiber.
I've gotten a couple of those in my fingers when splitting bamboo
for making kites. **shiver**
I put about 5 layers of lacker on arrows so hopefully that will slow
down any process of splintering. But I'll keep an extra eye on them.
You are absolutely rigth. Those splinters are like carbonfiber.
I've gotten a couple of those in my fingers when splitting bamboo
for making kites. **shiver**
I put about 5 layers of lacker on arrows so hopefully that will slow
down any process of splintering. But I'll keep an extra eye on them.
To tell a bamboo species exactly, one needs to see it flower, which is a very slow process. But arundinarias are sold as plant sticks because they are running bamboo, growing by the millions in their range, and they are stout. The internodes are often very tapered so that below the node is thin and above the node is thick. Some culms(sticks) have such exaggerated thick and thin and thick and thin etc as to be unusable. Others are tolerable, workable. Sometimes the internodes do not sit centered on eachother but are offset, which is also not desirable. The nodes on arundinaria can be fairly far apart. Nodes are swollen, the eye above the node is small with no groove or very minimal. If there is a branch rather than an eye, there will be a flat area above the node and at every node after that. These are the characteristics of Arundinaria.
All bamboos have shiney skin that is hard to adhere to if not abraded.
Stig; spinning bamboo would put marks across the grain, weakening the arrow. Kyudo recognises three tapers to bamboo arrows. There are those special bamboo sticks with no taper, most will taper toward the nock, some few will taper toward the point.
Shooting any arrow with a damaged surface is dangerous. This danger is amplified by strong bows. -j-
All bamboos have shiney skin that is hard to adhere to if not abraded.
Stig; spinning bamboo would put marks across the grain, weakening the arrow. Kyudo recognises three tapers to bamboo arrows. There are those special bamboo sticks with no taper, most will taper toward the nock, some few will taper toward the point.
Shooting any arrow with a damaged surface is dangerous. This danger is amplified by strong bows. -j-
I might have missed this but How much can you sand off the bamboo? , If you want to try to get the shafts the same diameter.
Thank you.
> Stig; spinning bamboo would put marks across the grain, weakening the arrow.
When you mentioned it. I noticed on some of the shafts that they got more visibly marks than
on a wooden dowel. But I think equally important is that your way of sanding the shaft
gives better control with how much you remove. The way I did it could easily end up with
removing to much bamboo thus creating weaker parts/spots.
> Stig; spinning bamboo would put marks across the grain, weakening the arrow.
When you mentioned it. I noticed on some of the shafts that they got more visibly marks than
on a wooden dowel. But I think equally important is that your way of sanding the shaft
gives better control with how much you remove. The way I did it could easily end up with
removing to much bamboo thus creating weaker parts/spots.
I'm not the expert here, but in my experience you need to pick abustedarrow wrote:
I might have missed this but How much can you sand off the bamboo? , If you want to try to get the shafts the same diameter.
shaft that as a start has a more uniform overall diameter that again is not
far from the diameter you want to end up with. That said it would still be
rather individual (for each shaft) how much you can remove without weakening the shaft.
Jack Farrell,
Nice to find another bamboo enthusiast; most people I know fight shy considering bamboo to be a nuisance. I grow a few different species and I've often been tempted to make some arrows from them. The Chimonobambusa Quadrangularis is definitely not a contender due to its square shaped culms and very pronounced nodes. Have you ever tried Phyllostachys Nigra? I wondered whether the beautiful black colouration remains after sanding.
Another very nice specimen that may have potential is Drepanostachyum Hookerianum 'Damarapa'. The culms are nice and straight with hardly any swelling at the node because all branching is very fine. The colouration is very striking with pink and cream stripes and the internodal length is quite short, even on the largest culms.
Pseudosasa Japonica should produce some good results if its common name of 'arrow bamboo' is anything to go by. The culms are indeed very straight. The bamboo specialist that supplied my plants considered this species as uninteresting, saying "most people who have bamboo have this one." He was a little more interested when I explained the size of the clumps I have, they are literally a forest at the far end of my garden, four huge clumps about 8 to 10 feet in diameter.
I'd advise anyone interested in making bamboo arrows to buy a small plant, within a year or two you will have all the supplies you need.
http://www.junglegiants.co.uk/
Nice to find another bamboo enthusiast; most people I know fight shy considering bamboo to be a nuisance. I grow a few different species and I've often been tempted to make some arrows from them. The Chimonobambusa Quadrangularis is definitely not a contender due to its square shaped culms and very pronounced nodes. Have you ever tried Phyllostachys Nigra? I wondered whether the beautiful black colouration remains after sanding.
Another very nice specimen that may have potential is Drepanostachyum Hookerianum 'Damarapa'. The culms are nice and straight with hardly any swelling at the node because all branching is very fine. The colouration is very striking with pink and cream stripes and the internodal length is quite short, even on the largest culms.
Pseudosasa Japonica should produce some good results if its common name of 'arrow bamboo' is anything to go by. The culms are indeed very straight. The bamboo specialist that supplied my plants considered this species as uninteresting, saying "most people who have bamboo have this one." He was a little more interested when I explained the size of the clumps I have, they are literally a forest at the far end of my garden, four huge clumps about 8 to 10 feet in diameter.
I'd advise anyone interested in making bamboo arrows to buy a small plant, within a year or two you will have all the supplies you need.
http://www.junglegiants.co.uk/
Orda, apparantly Damarapa is Himalayian candy cane stripe bamboo, is that correct? Never heard of that before, thanks. My ID of Arundinaria is from locally growing A. gigiantia, a native bamboo to Texas, which looks identical to gardening stakes and works up the same.
Black bamboo only has black skin and the skin is removed to make arrows. But a large black pole makes a fabulous bow backing. As you may know black bamboo has green poles which turn black on a single freezing night. If it is not cold enough, it becomes tortoise shell; an even more desirable color. But black is too tapered to make a good arrow. It grows well in Texas.
Pseudo sasa Japonica is the stuff of Japanese arrows. Need I say more? Blissful perfection, made in heaven for arrow making. When the sheaths begin to disintegrate, they are ready to harvest.
You can go through the list if you want but I have mentioned the best species as I understand them.
Do not reshape arrow bamboos. Remove bulges and the outer skin judiciously. You will only get good arrows if you start with good sticks.
Black bamboo only has black skin and the skin is removed to make arrows. But a large black pole makes a fabulous bow backing. As you may know black bamboo has green poles which turn black on a single freezing night. If it is not cold enough, it becomes tortoise shell; an even more desirable color. But black is too tapered to make a good arrow. It grows well in Texas.
Pseudo sasa Japonica is the stuff of Japanese arrows. Need I say more? Blissful perfection, made in heaven for arrow making. When the sheaths begin to disintegrate, they are ready to harvest.
You can go through the list if you want but I have mentioned the best species as I understand them.
Do not reshape arrow bamboos. Remove bulges and the outer skin judiciously. You will only get good arrows if you start with good sticks.
Hello Jack,
Yes that's right, Damarapa is native to Bhutan and north east India in the Himalayan foothills. The photograph on the site in my link really does not do it justice.
As for the Japonica, you have confirmed my suspicions, I'd heard it was the arrow choice of the Samurai. Maybe I will try making some arrows but I doubt I would actually use them for the reasons Stephen has already posted. Any exploding arrows are a worry but I shudder to think of the consequences with bamboo.
Yes that's right, Damarapa is native to Bhutan and north east India in the Himalayan foothills. The photograph on the site in my link really does not do it justice.
As for the Japonica, you have confirmed my suspicions, I'd heard it was the arrow choice of the Samurai. Maybe I will try making some arrows but I doubt I would actually use them for the reasons Stephen has already posted. Any exploding arrows are a worry but I shudder to think of the consequences with bamboo.
Stephen; Have you or someone you know been injured by a bamboo arrow? Personally I find them the best quality material imaginable for arrowmaking. It even makes it difficult to go back to sticks.
It would not be good to shoot one which was oversanded. The strongest wood is at the surface. Just remove the thin skin and the bumps, no more; don't change the taper.
I did want to mention that my observation is that the Indo Persians were using Arundinaria for their arrows, or a material which looks like it. Of the arrows I have seen, these do not remind me of Phragmites. More investigation needs to be done.
Therefore I find gardening stakes type bamboo to make good IP reproductions. -j-
It would not be good to shoot one which was oversanded. The strongest wood is at the surface. Just remove the thin skin and the bumps, no more; don't change the taper.
I did want to mention that my observation is that the Indo Persians were using Arundinaria for their arrows, or a material which looks like it. Of the arrows I have seen, these do not remind me of Phragmites. More investigation needs to be done.
Therefore I find gardening stakes type bamboo to make good IP reproductions. -j-
I have been using and making bamboo arrows for more then 30 years. I distroyed a lot of arrow heads (field points) but never any shafts of a bamboo arrow. For me this is the best raw material you can get for arrows. All the discussions about spine are worthless, you match a set up the weight as close as possible..
Reto
Reto
..
..
Very nice arrows, Reto. Regarding the nocks, if using a dowel insert would it be best to cut the bamboo a little way above the node so the insert butts up against the node when inserted? Should you try to also match the node distances of each arrow or is this unnecessary?
.. I highly recommend Thomas Duvernay's Video "Crafting the Korean Bamboo Arrow". Check his website http://www.koreanarchery.org or http://www.hwarangarchery.com . The original Korean Bamboo Arrows (slide3.jpg) I also got from him. I difficult/impossible to beat the Korean Masters!
The Korean/Japanese arrow makers match the nodes as best as possible. They have excellent bamboo available (pseudo japonica or koreana) which we won't be able to get from Walmart or any garden shop/centre. I prefer selfnocks or horn-inserts and I cut off the bamboo 1 cm above the node.
Some further some hints/information:
http://bambooarrow.com/video.html
http://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/grayso ... ery2.shtml
http://www.sac.or.kr/eng/bows/i.html
Good look and give it a try!
Reto
The Korean/Japanese arrow makers match the nodes as best as possible. They have excellent bamboo available (pseudo japonica or koreana) which we won't be able to get from Walmart or any garden shop/centre. I prefer selfnocks or horn-inserts and I cut off the bamboo 1 cm above the node.
Some further some hints/information:
http://bambooarrow.com/video.html
http://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/grayso ... ery2.shtml
http://www.sac.or.kr/eng/bows/i.html
Good look and give it a try!
Reto
Thanks for the very helpful reply, Reto. It's been a lovely sunny day here so I just spent a few hours in my 'Japonica forest' harvesting some canes :D
Because of our damp climate I have bundled them together and tucked them away in one of my rooms (hopefully hidden well enough that my wife overlooks them) to dry for a couple of months.
I had considered horn for the nocks, it's available quite readily in small sticks specifically for nock inserts and such so that's a bonus. I normally use 100 grain brass bullet piles on my arrows so I will probably try those. Do you suggest an optimum diameter? The canes I cut range from around 15 mm tapering to around 8mm or so. Many thanks again.
Because of our damp climate I have bundled them together and tucked them away in one of my rooms (hopefully hidden well enough that my wife overlooks them) to dry for a couple of months.
I had considered horn for the nocks, it's available quite readily in small sticks specifically for nock inserts and such so that's a bonus. I normally use 100 grain brass bullet piles on my arrows so I will probably try those. Do you suggest an optimum diameter? The canes I cut range from around 15 mm tapering to around 8mm or so. Many thanks again.
Diameter: 8 mm -> original arrows
I am getting jealous about your weather temperature. Here in Switzerland it is cold and there is snow everywhere. The traffic collapsed - good time to work on my bows and arrows ....
Reto
I am getting jealous about your weather temperature. Here in Switzerland it is cold and there is snow everywhere. The traffic collapsed - good time to work on my bows and arrows ....
Reto
Reto
Those arrows are very nice. But I am wondering about the spliced feathers arrows. is that a dowel spliced in the cane under the feathers?
Matt
Those arrows are very nice. But I am wondering about the spliced feathers arrows. is that a dowel spliced in the cane under the feathers?
Matt
What a fabulous bunch of arrows. Reto you are a very patient and rich man to own all those hand-made arrows. Like a beautiful vase of flowers- to an archer.
Am glad to see others who enjoy bamboo arrows. -j-
Am glad to see others who enjoy bamboo arrows. -j-
Well the sun is out and it is warm in sheltered places, Spring is on its way but not quite arrived just yet. That is a nice thought but the womenfolk tend to find too many 'other' chores and it's hard to find an excuse to avoid them.
A word of advice to anyone harvesting their own bamboo....COVER UP!!
I forgot this golden rule and I'm paying for it today. I did not wear gloves and merely the act of brushing the culms to one side with my left arm has left my hand and wrist red and sore from abrasions and tiny micro splinters and that is only from the dry sheathes at the nodes. These sheathes cling on to Japonica for a long time, years even and they become very dry and brittle.
Thanks for those links, I will follow the arrow making instructions religiously.
On a side note, legislation and silly rules tend to get in the way too often these days, at least here in the UK that is the case. Archery governing bodies make it extremely difficult for the Traditional Archer because of their ridiculous classifications. I am a member of a Field archery club which is a GNAS affiliate, we had a group of 'team GB' squad members at the club last night ready for squad training session today. Knowing that GNAS rules regarding 'trad' are particularly bad (they allow modern recurves as long as wooden arrows are used yet always raise an eyebrow during equipment inspection over the binding on my Hun) I decided to ask a judge about using bamboo arrows. Obviously this has never arisen before because he was unsure. The outcome was that FITA rules make no stipulation on materials, where GNAS rules state wooden arrows and bamboo is grass. He saw no reason for bamboo not to be allowed other than complaints by any archers who you may happen to beat; they will need to look into it :roll:
It is so annoying having these silly rules applied by people who regard traditional archers with some contempt compared to the 'sights and wheels brigade'. Thumb draw is not allowed yet trigger release is fine. I keep fighting the Asiatic corner, maybe one day I'll succeed in getting our own classification.
A word of advice to anyone harvesting their own bamboo....COVER UP!!
I forgot this golden rule and I'm paying for it today. I did not wear gloves and merely the act of brushing the culms to one side with my left arm has left my hand and wrist red and sore from abrasions and tiny micro splinters and that is only from the dry sheathes at the nodes. These sheathes cling on to Japonica for a long time, years even and they become very dry and brittle.
Thanks for those links, I will follow the arrow making instructions religiously.
On a side note, legislation and silly rules tend to get in the way too often these days, at least here in the UK that is the case. Archery governing bodies make it extremely difficult for the Traditional Archer because of their ridiculous classifications. I am a member of a Field archery club which is a GNAS affiliate, we had a group of 'team GB' squad members at the club last night ready for squad training session today. Knowing that GNAS rules regarding 'trad' are particularly bad (they allow modern recurves as long as wooden arrows are used yet always raise an eyebrow during equipment inspection over the binding on my Hun) I decided to ask a judge about using bamboo arrows. Obviously this has never arisen before because he was unsure. The outcome was that FITA rules make no stipulation on materials, where GNAS rules state wooden arrows and bamboo is grass. He saw no reason for bamboo not to be allowed other than complaints by any archers who you may happen to beat; they will need to look into it :roll:
It is so annoying having these silly rules applied by people who regard traditional archers with some contempt compared to the 'sights and wheels brigade'. Thumb draw is not allowed yet trigger release is fine. I keep fighting the Asiatic corner, maybe one day I'll succeed in getting our own classification.
Actually Orda its not so bleak for the thumb technique i recently enquired with the GNAS about it and I got a reply.
I sent....
Dear GNAS,
I have recently begun shooting my asiatic bow with a thumbring
technique, meaning I pull the string with my thumb and forefinger. I
also wear a ring on my thumb to prevent bruising.
I intend to use this technique over the three finger draw commonly used,
however I should like to know if this technique would be acceptable in
GNAS tournements.
I got....
'Mike
Sorry for the delay - I've been trying to get an answer for this enquiry from the chairman of the Judges Peter Morris. I have now received his answer as follows.
'For the type of bow and the style, it would appeat that there isn't a problem in the way that he wishes to shoot. Only purists would argue that the thumbring on the thumb is not necessary and could be interpreted as an aid ' .
I hope that this answers your enquiry.
Kind Regards
Stephanie
GNAS'
It appears that they think a ring is different from a tab but really I can now hold this quote up high at the next tournement I go to if anyone tells me I am unsafe.
Mike
I sent....
Dear GNAS,
I have recently begun shooting my asiatic bow with a thumbring
technique, meaning I pull the string with my thumb and forefinger. I
also wear a ring on my thumb to prevent bruising.
I intend to use this technique over the three finger draw commonly used,
however I should like to know if this technique would be acceptable in
GNAS tournements.
I got....
'Mike
Sorry for the delay - I've been trying to get an answer for this enquiry from the chairman of the Judges Peter Morris. I have now received his answer as follows.
'For the type of bow and the style, it would appeat that there isn't a problem in the way that he wishes to shoot. Only purists would argue that the thumbring on the thumb is not necessary and could be interpreted as an aid ' .
I hope that this answers your enquiry.
Kind Regards
Stephanie
GNAS'
It appears that they think a ring is different from a tab but really I can now hold this quote up high at the next tournement I go to if anyone tells me I am unsafe.
Mike
What a brilliant piece of news, Mike. Thanks for letting me know and good for you for going straight to the top for an answer. I was told quite bluntly years ago that it was not acceptable and have used split finger release since, looks like I will have to re-learn archery. I look forward to quoting your reply :)
These governing bodies should really start looking at ways to embrace all forms of archery and encourage those of us who take part for the sheer enjoyment rather than rankings and prestige. It's a sad fact that the 'trad' class has so few entries, I suppose the learning curve is much longer and most people opt for the instant gratification that modern equipment brings.
These governing bodies should really start looking at ways to embrace all forms of archery and encourage those of us who take part for the sheer enjoyment rather than rankings and prestige. It's a sad fact that the 'trad' class has so few entries, I suppose the learning curve is much longer and most people opt for the instant gratification that modern equipment brings.
I was talking to my club coach when I was shooting this morning. I commented on the ease at which people shooting different equipment seemed to get along and the tolerance the club showed to traditional archers. His answer was that archers are a rare enough breed that it did no good to chase any away.
I was shooting at a target with a very accomplished modern recurve archer, a good longbow archer and a beginning recurve shooter. I was using a Korean bow and Middle Eastern technique. Everyone was encouraging each other.
A standard thumb ring without groove or hook acts just like a tab. At target distances, I would not choose one over the other. Sometimes I shoot with a metal ring and others with a replica leather Mongolian tab that Dr Grayson made. There does not seem to be any difference in accuracy.
I was shooting at a target with a very accomplished modern recurve archer, a good longbow archer and a beginning recurve shooter. I was using a Korean bow and Middle Eastern technique. Everyone was encouraging each other.
A standard thumb ring without groove or hook acts just like a tab. At target distances, I would not choose one over the other. Sometimes I shoot with a metal ring and others with a replica leather Mongolian tab that Dr Grayson made. There does not seem to be any difference in accuracy.
Don't let anyone double-talk you into thinking that bamboo is not wood. Bamboo is used for all the same purposes that other species of wood are, ie, plywood, flooring, furniture, and etc.
Saying that bamboo is a grass and therefore not wood is like making a differentiation between decidious wood (the leaves fall, like ash) and coniferous(with needles, like port orford cedar).
If it were said that bamboo is hollow, one could point out that NA Indians used dogwood arrows that have a pith center and are therefore hollow.
It is simple to proove that wood is wood is wood. -j-
Saying that bamboo is a grass and therefore not wood is like making a differentiation between decidious wood (the leaves fall, like ash) and coniferous(with needles, like port orford cedar).
If it were said that bamboo is hollow, one could point out that NA Indians used dogwood arrows that have a pith center and are therefore hollow.
It is simple to proove that wood is wood is wood. -j-
Certainly Jack, I agree with you...and there are a fair few longbows being used that feature bamboo as part of the laminate (our treasurer has one) The 'grass' element arose when the judge was unsure and suggested there should be no problem until interrupted by one of the 'upper echelons' of team GB who put forward the grass argument. As a carbon shooting fingerwalker, I saw no reason for him to get involved.
Bede,
In all honesty my club is just like yours, we have many styles and there is a great atmosphere. From being the only Asiatic I have encouraged others and the 'horde' now numbers seven; three Huns, two Magyars, one Scythian and one Mongol and definite interest by a longtime compound archer. However, there is no getting away from the fact that shoots are aimed mostly at modern archery. More than once my wife has failed to hit fifty metre targets due to overhanging branches.
Bede,
In all honesty my club is just like yours, we have many styles and there is a great atmosphere. From being the only Asiatic I have encouraged others and the 'horde' now numbers seven; three Huns, two Magyars, one Scythian and one Mongol and definite interest by a longtime compound archer. However, there is no getting away from the fact that shoots are aimed mostly at modern archery. More than once my wife has failed to hit fifty metre targets due to overhanging branches.
Which part of wales are you based in Orda? there is an excellent (in my opinion) field club with its own 34 target field course about 1 mile from crick village (the same crick that houses wales archery specialists). The club there is very much a field club with less of the compound brigade. I would visit it more often if it weren't for the distance.
Mike
Mike
I have found that the longbow competitions are very generous for composite bows used traditionally. I had one complaint from another archer who said that field ranges set out for compound users did not make much allowance for people who missed the target and wanted to search for their arrows. Since I tend to experiment between several shooting styles, I do miss the target face on occasions, so I was not attracted to that scenario.
What I do appreciate is when extremely good archers with high tech equipment take time out from their shooting to complement a traditional archer on a good shot. Some of these people invest so much emotion and commitment to high precision shooting that I am impressed that can equally enjoy the success of their low tech colleagues.
I have seen competitions that had a Japanese bow, several Hungarian and Korean traditional bows, two types of longbows and every piece of modern equipment you could imagine all lined up and shooting.
What I do appreciate is when extremely good archers with high tech equipment take time out from their shooting to complement a traditional archer on a good shot. Some of these people invest so much emotion and commitment to high precision shooting that I am impressed that can equally enjoy the success of their low tech colleagues.
I have seen competitions that had a Japanese bow, several Hungarian and Korean traditional bows, two types of longbows and every piece of modern equipment you could imagine all lined up and shooting.
I know that course Mike, on the road to Shirenewton. I'm a member of Pentref Bowmen and we have a wooded hillside where our courses are laid out. Sadly, we are unable to have permanent targets out due to vandalism etc. We have the British Field Shoot coming soon at the end of May and the World Field Championships in September 2008.
Our compound archers are a great bunch and are constantly fascinated by the accuracy of my Hun. Of course accuracy drops far more quickly with any traditional equipment when distance to target is increased and I still miss a few. And on the occasions that arrows go awry, most archers are happy to help search...but there are the others. In fact, when I give up the search as a hopeless case most are generally quite sad .. "it's a pity because they are such beautiful arrows"
My complaint is that traditional archery is struggling compared with recurve or compound and that it needs people to promote it, which I do whenever I get the chance, explaining the satisfaction of making your own arrows and such.
Our compound archers are a great bunch and are constantly fascinated by the accuracy of my Hun. Of course accuracy drops far more quickly with any traditional equipment when distance to target is increased and I still miss a few. And on the occasions that arrows go awry, most archers are happy to help search...but there are the others. In fact, when I give up the search as a hopeless case most are generally quite sad .. "it's a pity because they are such beautiful arrows"
My complaint is that traditional archery is struggling compared with recurve or compound and that it needs people to promote it, which I do whenever I get the chance, explaining the satisfaction of making your own arrows and such.
I have visited Pentref with my club a few years back, and that was the day that I realised that non archery is much more pleasing than perfect flat field with set distances.
Mike
Mike
You missed a blast last weekend, a very tricky course with some demanding shots. I finished 18 points down on my last score, my shooting was up and down...a bit like the course!!
OK, back to the arrows.
I have pre cut the Japonica shafts to length and dried them for a month, they are a few seasons old so not new growth. They have turned from their dark green colour to a pale greyish green, is this long enough?
I have a small portable barbeque, some charcoal and two bricks ready for the heating process. Matching the nodes and getting similar diameters is a very difficult job so I cut some more canes yesterday. Hopefully I will get a few that match.
OK, back to the arrows.
I have pre cut the Japonica shafts to length and dried them for a month, they are a few seasons old so not new growth. They have turned from their dark green colour to a pale greyish green, is this long enough?
I have a small portable barbeque, some charcoal and two bricks ready for the heating process. Matching the nodes and getting similar diameters is a very difficult job so I cut some more canes yesterday. Hopefully I will get a few that match.
Go cut all the premium old canes from the patch now. Cut them extra long for matching later. You will need as many sticks as possible. Matched groups will be like gold for trading later.
Bamboo grows best when trimmed back about 25% per year.
Bamboo grows best when trimmed back about 25% per year.
Around my university here in Korea, we have Sasa coreana all over the place. There are literal forests of it in the surrounding areas. I'm going to collect a bunch of it with my students.
T
T
A question about Coreana, Thomas...
How marked is the taper of each culm and how far apart are the nodes? I am finding that established Japonica culms are ranging from 15mm or more down to about 8mm around first branching; this is along a 3-4m length. My POC arrows are 5/16 and trying to get a similar diameter at the nock, the majority are more like 12mm at the pile end. Each node is around a foot apart but with some variation, meaning I have about 3 sets of varying number where the nodes match or are very close. Of course, each shaft will probably weigh differently so I may be going the wrong way looking to match the nodes. At present it is obvious to me that I could cut about a hundred culms to achieve half a dozen matching arrows (weight/node distance) so would I do better to concentrate less on matching the nodes and more on diameter and weight?
Jack,
The bamboo I planted has been thinned out annually but unfortunately the Japonica was long established before I moved here nearly 20 years ago. Imagine 4 huge, tightly packed bundles of bamboo about 6 feet in diameter. Trying to get in amongst the culms is murder and cutting them close to ground level is well nigh impossible but I could probably get away with cutting about 3 feet up and still have plenty of cane to use because the diameter I'm after is near the top of each one. I'd like to see how well I manage the straightening process before I cut more, if I do a good job and the arrows match my POC's for performance I'll never need to buy another shaft.
How marked is the taper of each culm and how far apart are the nodes? I am finding that established Japonica culms are ranging from 15mm or more down to about 8mm around first branching; this is along a 3-4m length. My POC arrows are 5/16 and trying to get a similar diameter at the nock, the majority are more like 12mm at the pile end. Each node is around a foot apart but with some variation, meaning I have about 3 sets of varying number where the nodes match or are very close. Of course, each shaft will probably weigh differently so I may be going the wrong way looking to match the nodes. At present it is obvious to me that I could cut about a hundred culms to achieve half a dozen matching arrows (weight/node distance) so would I do better to concentrate less on matching the nodes and more on diameter and weight?
Jack,
The bamboo I planted has been thinned out annually but unfortunately the Japonica was long established before I moved here nearly 20 years ago. Imagine 4 huge, tightly packed bundles of bamboo about 6 feet in diameter. Trying to get in amongst the culms is murder and cutting them close to ground level is well nigh impossible but I could probably get away with cutting about 3 feet up and still have plenty of cane to use because the diameter I'm after is near the top of each one. I'd like to see how well I manage the straightening process before I cut more, if I do a good job and the arrows match my POC's for performance I'll never need to buy another shaft.
Khan; Are you sure this is P. Japonica? It would be a running bamboo. -j-
Yes I'm positive.
http://www.junglegiants.co.uk/acatalog/ ... onica.html
It does run which is why I have 4 clumps of it and I also have another clump starting to form but is nowhere near as invasive in its running as Quadrangularis, for example. I would guess the original planting was made around 30 years ago.
I cut some more anyway so I have a total of 50 canes to work with.
http://www.junglegiants.co.uk/acatalog/ ... onica.html
It does run which is why I have 4 clumps of it and I also have another clump starting to form but is nowhere near as invasive in its running as Quadrangularis, for example. I would guess the original planting was made around 30 years ago.
I cut some more anyway so I have a total of 50 canes to work with.
In a really thick grove, I like to go to the back, the side not seen, and excavate a channel into the heart of the clump. I cut a path with lopping shears cutting every cane at the ground. Once in the middle I shop around for the perfect ones. Three quarters of the canes are not usable. But there are a few, thin, perfect, barely tapering canes, with now disintegrating sheaths that are the prize. Other canes can be reached from the outer circle.
The entry path will soon grow back. -j-
The entry path will soon grow back. -j-
My set up for 'twirling' the shafts (2 dense bricks on a portable barbeque) seems adequate for the job. I had one particularly straight shaft that I used but I noticed there was little change to any slight imperfection. Established culms of 3 or more years invariably have some bend due to acts of nature; the weight of snow, wind, pressure from surrounding culms, etc and twirling is not enough to straighten them. I have overcome this problem by using direct heat and manual straightening before the twirling process. Looking at the Korean fletchers, the shafts standing in the background are obviously extremely high quality, with matching nodes and diameters and above all, straight. Using direct heat I've managed to straighten 8 shafts and I have 2 that have been through the bricks and have been sanded. I am really impressed with the results, they are incredibly smooth. I plan to incorporate a thick metal tube with a 2" diameter hole for the second heating process.
I am assuming that the cellophane is wrapped around the sinew and nock as waterproofing for that joint? I have 10mm horn dowels that I will be shaping the nock inserts from so perhaps I can get away with just wrapping the sinew and the base of the nock. I've also had the good fortune of receiving a present of 4 pheasant left wings which I am very happy about.
The main concern I have now is the choice of pile. My arrows are fitted with 100 grain brass bullet piles with a 5/16" outer diameter which requires the first 1/2" of the shaft to be reduced to fit (parallel insert not taper). Maybe a 5/16" inner diameter would be better but I've always avoided these as I don't like the lip they create, making drawing arrows more difficult. The Korean piles seem to have a good inch of shaft in them which would be a more secure fit than the 1/2" that I will have to glue. Any suggestions? How well does hot melt work with bamboo?
I am assuming that the cellophane is wrapped around the sinew and nock as waterproofing for that joint? I have 10mm horn dowels that I will be shaping the nock inserts from so perhaps I can get away with just wrapping the sinew and the base of the nock. I've also had the good fortune of receiving a present of 4 pheasant left wings which I am very happy about.
The main concern I have now is the choice of pile. My arrows are fitted with 100 grain brass bullet piles with a 5/16" outer diameter which requires the first 1/2" of the shaft to be reduced to fit (parallel insert not taper). Maybe a 5/16" inner diameter would be better but I've always avoided these as I don't like the lip they create, making drawing arrows more difficult. The Korean piles seem to have a good inch of shaft in them which would be a more secure fit than the 1/2" that I will have to glue. Any suggestions? How well does hot melt work with bamboo?
Remember, the Koreans shoot at a solid target which the arrows bounce off. They have no worries about the shoulder on the points. I have some old Korean arrows and the point structure is the same as the ones Thomas shows. The nocks are hardwood.
The Turks sometimes covered the sinew wrapoping with gold leaf to provide moiture protection.
The Turks sometimes covered the sinew wrapoping with gold leaf to provide moiture protection.
Bamboo grows in the southern Asian area, but at what point does bamboo stop appearing? Did anyone of the Islamic Crescent use bamboo shafts?
For those of us who don't have space to grow bamboo, is there a retailer anywhere about?
Cheers
Mike
For those of us who don't have space to grow bamboo, is there a retailer anywhere about?
Cheers
Mike
I have a question about the pile fit, ( I am making some arrows right now from phragmite cane) yor talking about just tapering the bamboo like a wood shaft to fit the point. I was informed taht without the point being tanged, you have to insert a piece in the pile to attach the point to?
Matt
Matt
I would bet that the hole in a Korean brass point would not be tapered so as to better accomodate bamboo's structure. I would not onstall tapered socket-type points. I first install thin ferules made from brass tubing. Then I install screw in type points which have been ground to accomodate. -j-
Just to clarify, I do not use piles with a tapered hole, I've always used a parallel insert type. Seeing the Korean fletchers sticking wood shaving on the bamboo made me wonder why. The only conclusion I could come up with was for a better 'grip' on the pile. Obviously the bamboo is hollow and I'd considered fitting an insert of an inch or so into the end of the shaft. I have plenty of POC off cuts for this purpose. I just wondered if hot melt would work OK with bamboo. Maybe I could sand the last 1/2" and stick on some wood shaving as well.
That part is a long way off at the moment so plenty of time to come up with a solution.
That part is a long way off at the moment so plenty of time to come up with a solution.
Korean points have changed over the last century or so. Target points originally had the form of four sided spike going half way though a disk. The little peg at the front marked the target. There was even a special tool to straighten out the point when it bent on hitting a hard substance.
Indo-Persian arrows for target shooting had conical piles with a tang. The ones I have were bound with sinew from the base of the point to just past where the tang ended.
Y?cel's book refers to wooden inserts in reed arrows into which the tang of the arrow head was inserted. The surviving ones were range (menzil) and war (tirkesh) arrows. I think the choice was determined by the wall thickness of the reed.
Despite the fact that bamboo will grow in certain parts of the Middle East, it was not native to the area. It was introduced in the last hundred and fifty years, but I don't know when exactly. Because the Turks used the same word for reed and bamboo, it is difficult to tell them apart in the texts. There is a separate word for bamboo in Turkish which descends from the same root as the English word. It is not used in the old texts as far as I know. Since bamboo arrows were not used on the Steppe, it is unlikely to have been brought to the Middle East by Turks from Central Asia or the Mongols.
Reed arrows were common however from ancient times and have been found in Egyptian graves and the Roman fort of Dura Europos. These usually had foreshafts and sometimes used inserted knocks of hardwood. The Dura Europus arrows were self-nocked. All used sinew wrapping.
Indo-Persian arrows for target shooting had conical piles with a tang. The ones I have were bound with sinew from the base of the point to just past where the tang ended.
Y?cel's book refers to wooden inserts in reed arrows into which the tang of the arrow head was inserted. The surviving ones were range (menzil) and war (tirkesh) arrows. I think the choice was determined by the wall thickness of the reed.
Despite the fact that bamboo will grow in certain parts of the Middle East, it was not native to the area. It was introduced in the last hundred and fifty years, but I don't know when exactly. Because the Turks used the same word for reed and bamboo, it is difficult to tell them apart in the texts. There is a separate word for bamboo in Turkish which descends from the same root as the English word. It is not used in the old texts as far as I know. Since bamboo arrows were not used on the Steppe, it is unlikely to have been brought to the Middle East by Turks from Central Asia or the Mongols.
Reed arrows were common however from ancient times and have been found in Egyptian graves and the Roman fort of Dura Europos. These usually had foreshafts and sometimes used inserted knocks of hardwood. The Dura Europus arrows were self-nocked. All used sinew wrapping.
The taper is not very perceptible, although you can see it slightly. I'll have to find my calipers to get an accurate reading, though.Orda Khan wrote:
A question about Coreana, Thomas...
How marked is the taper of each culm and how far apart are the nodes? I am finding that established Japonica culms are ranging from 15mm or more down to about 8mm around first branching; this is along a 3-4m length. My POC arrows are 5/16 and trying to get a similar diameter at the nock, the majority are more like 12mm at the pile end. Each node is around a foot apart but with some variation, meaning I have about 3 sets of varying number where the nodes match or are very close. Of course, each shaft will probably weigh differently so I may be going the wrong way looking to match the nodes. At present it is obvious to me that I could cut about a hundred culms to achieve half a dozen matching arrows (weight/node distance) so would I do better to concentrate less on matching the nodes and more on diameter and weight?
T
This is my Indo-Persian technique for attaching points to bamboo shafts. The ferule is cut from 5/16 thinwall brass tubing -1/2 inch long; weight 15 grains. This particular point is 5/16 inch-100 grains originally; ground down to an "armor piercing" cross-section with tapered tang (teeth groung onto the tang for extra gluing strength); now 70 grains. Total ferule+point=85 grains plus or minus.
The ferule is squared off on a grinder, etc, marked to length and cut off with a tubing cutter. this gives one rounded end and one squared end.
Preweigh each shaft readied for points. Match the lightest shaft with the heaviest point/ferule combination. Small wood plugs can also be glued in the ends before installing nock and point. In this way exact arrow weights can be acheived.
Taper the butt of the shaft about one degree and force/tap into the ferule. When the shaft is bottomed into the ferule carefully drill the hole for the tang (You can use the tang itself and worry it into the shaft. When the point bottoms against the ferule you are ready to glue.
Small amounts can also be ground from the finished points to achieve ideal weight.
This point will not wear as a sinew-wrapped one will. It is authentic. -j-
The ferule is squared off on a grinder, etc, marked to length and cut off with a tubing cutter. this gives one rounded end and one squared end.
Preweigh each shaft readied for points. Match the lightest shaft with the heaviest point/ferule combination. Small wood plugs can also be glued in the ends before installing nock and point. In this way exact arrow weights can be acheived.
Taper the butt of the shaft about one degree and force/tap into the ferule. When the shaft is bottomed into the ferule carefully drill the hole for the tang (You can use the tang itself and worry it into the shaft. When the point bottoms against the ferule you are ready to glue.
Small amounts can also be ground from the finished points to achieve ideal weight.
This point will not wear as a sinew-wrapped one will. It is authentic. -j-
That sounds like a very strong bond, Jack. When you first mentioned the ferule I thought it inserted into the hole in the pile, I see now that the pile has a tang. Would that pile be an inset type used normally with aluminium shafts?
@ Thomas,
Thanks for that information. After seeing those Korean fletchers at work and all the shafts matching at the nodes it made me wonder about Coreana. About how tall does it grow? My Japonica can be upwards of 4 metres and the nodes seem further apart.
If I could find a bamboo specialist who stocks Coreana I would definitely get a plant. Is there a supplier over there who will sell bare shafts?
@ Thomas,
Thanks for that information. After seeing those Korean fletchers at work and all the shafts matching at the nodes it made me wonder about Coreana. About how tall does it grow? My Japonica can be upwards of 4 metres and the nodes seem further apart.
If I could find a bamboo specialist who stocks Coreana I would definitely get a plant. Is there a supplier over there who will sell bare shafts?
I see some of the culms grow up about that much.Orda Khan wrote:
@ Thomas,
Thanks for that information. After seeing those Korean fletchers at work and all the shafts matching at the nodes it made me wonder about Coreana. About how tall does it grow? My Japonica can be upwards of 4 metres and the nodes seem further apart.
If I could find a bamboo specialist who stocks Coreana I would definitely get a plant. Is there a supplier over there who will sell bare shafts?
Yes, I can get bare shafts here, either heated/straightened or raw; I'm considering harvesting them myself, but the fletcher gets the best quality (from NE South Korea).
T
What is the asking price for a dozen heated/straightened shafts?
I am enjoying working with bamboo but the process is very time consuming and there is no way I could compare my work to the masters. I would like to find a weight that works well with my bow, once I do this a matching dozen would be very nice.
The horn dowels and sinew arrived this morning, I'm looking forward to shaping the horn into nocks. I'll also be phoning a friend who's a plumber about the brass tube, I like the sound of that pile attachment.
I am enjoying working with bamboo but the process is very time consuming and there is no way I could compare my work to the masters. I would like to find a weight that works well with my bow, once I do this a matching dozen would be very nice.
The horn dowels and sinew arrived this morning, I'm looking forward to shaping the horn into nocks. I'll also be phoning a friend who's a plumber about the brass tube, I like the sound of that pile attachment.
This is the only place that I have found for shafting.
http://www.3riversarchery.com/Product.a ... p=0&i=6350 hope this works for yall.
Dunc
http://www.3riversarchery.com/Product.a ... p=0&i=6350 hope this works for yall.
Dunc
For heated/straightened shafts, I would recommend Duncan's link. Korean heated/straightened shafts, while excellent in quality, are fairly expensive (I would have to charge about $20/each). I will see if there are any less-expensive sources here in Korea.
T
T
Here are pics regarding the old-style Korean target point (yuyeopjeon):
[external image]
Point of arrow from my personal collection
[external image]
[external image]
Drawings by Yoo Young-gi, Korean fletcher
[external image]
Arrow in stages
[external image]
![[external image]](http://www.koreanarchery.org/yuyeoppoint.jpg){kind=link}
Point of arrow from my personal collection
[external image]
![[external image]](http://www.koreanarchery.org/yuyeop1b.jpg){kind=link}
[external image]
![[external image]](http://www.koreanarchery.org/yuyeop2b.jpg){kind=link}
Drawings by Yoo Young-gi, Korean fletcher
[external image]
![[external image]](http://www.koreanarchery.org/stage04.jpg){kind=link}
Arrow in stages
Thomas
What is that under the pile?
What is that under the pile?
On the old arrow, it is hollowed-out bamboo; on the modern arrow, it is wood shaving.
T
T
The pile in that last pic is exactly like the 100 grain piles I use.
20$...yes a bit expensive for bare shafts but I'm guessing they are a much closer match than 3Rivers sell.
I can get bare POC shafts matched within one pound for ?23 and I know a guy who makes very well matched arrows who charges around ?8 - ?10 per finished arrow. I would still wager the Korean shafts are more closely matched.
I do not use a thumb draw so I've yet to find out if bamboo arrows will suit my bow. I hope so.
edit: Should I soak the sinew first before I bind the nock end?
20$...yes a bit expensive for bare shafts but I'm guessing they are a much closer match than 3Rivers sell.
I can get bare POC shafts matched within one pound for ?23 and I know a guy who makes very well matched arrows who charges around ?8 - ?10 per finished arrow. I would still wager the Korean shafts are more closely matched.
I do not use a thumb draw so I've yet to find out if bamboo arrows will suit my bow. I hope so.
edit: Should I soak the sinew first before I bind the nock end?
I have a friend who used bamboo arrows decades ago and they were sold for Western style archers to use. They were excellent arrows for a Mediterranean draw, not just for a thumb draw.
Thanks for that, Bede. So all I have to do now is find the optimum weight to suit my bow.
I just finished binding the nock ends with sinew and hide glue....I bet those Koreans don't get as messed up as I just did :oops: My first attempt was not too great but the others are more evenly bound and look a lot better.
I just finished binding the nock ends with sinew and hide glue....I bet those Koreans don't get as messed up as I just did :oops: My first attempt was not too great but the others are more evenly bound and look a lot better.
I have a question to ask about the pile. I have several dozon bound up and almost dried. But I have selected these becouse they are very good but have a small diameter ,around 7mm. What would be a good pile for these? shold I try and fit some small dowle on the insde before I put on a pile? Or jsut glue on a pile and wrap it with silk? or use a tang?
I want it to be durable.
Matt
I want it to be durable.
Matt
These are arrows I made about 15 years ago. Arrow bamboo, 7mm largest diameter, 33", in a Japanese war style, Urushi lacquered, swan fletch, self nock, thread and lacquer lash, red eyes.
These are others in a Japanese war style, 9mm by 32 1/2, 6 1/4 wild goose fletch, 24k gold over red crest, black thread and lacquer lash, red eyes.
They are 'very' nice.
Jack,
You make very good looking arrows!
What is that "red eye"?
You make very good looking arrows!
What is that "red eye"?
..... some pics of indo-persian bamboo arrows with brass tubings and different layers (brass, iron, ivory, leather, .. ) of cross sections to absorb the bunt
I took some photos of my progress so far: The bamboo shafts have been drying for about one month, the straightened shafts are an earlier set. I am very pleased with them, straightening is not too difficult and it gets easier each time. I used hide glue to bind the nock ends and this too was a trial and error experience to find the right amount of glue. Looking at the colour of the shafts, I could probably have given them a little more heat but I'm happy enough with them.
Red Eyes. -j-
Jack, those swan fletchings are beautiful. You mentioned in a previous post about suppliers of various feathers, do you have any links? Putting Trueflight fletchings on these would be a sin.
I ended up with only one pheasant wing, my friend was horrified when he discovered maggots on the other three and threw them away :shock: Unfortunately he did not have the presence of mind to remove the feathers first. Though I like the fletchings I use on my tournament arrows (white, low profile parabolic) I'd rather put some really nice fletchings on these.
I ended up with only one pheasant wing, my friend was horrified when he discovered maggots on the other three and threw them away :shock: Unfortunately he did not have the presence of mind to remove the feathers first. Though I like the fletchings I use on my tournament arrows (white, low profile parabolic) I'd rather put some really nice fletchings on these.
Rusty' Feet has goose fletches prepared. Feather Source has turkey hybrid whole feathers. -j-
Almost all arrows I have seen are brown, from gold-brown to dark-brown. Especially the korean and japanese arrows are a dark-brown colour.
So, how much heat it must be applied to the shaft? Untiil will become brown or just only enough to straightening?
The shaft is really hardened by heating or is just heated to straightening?
For example Stig's arrows looks green.
So, how much heat it must be applied to the shaft? Untiil will become brown or just only enough to straightening?
The shaft is really hardened by heating or is just heated to straightening?
For example Stig's arrows looks green.
by using heat, you not only straighten the arrows, but also temper the strands/fibres for more resistance of this gras. By using too much heat you may burn the fibres and make the arrows exploid - start smelling terrible. Getting the nice dark coulour depends on the species of bamboo. Some get darker sooner, others later - it depends on the characteristics.
Reto
http://www.bamboo.com/
Reto
http://www.bamboo.com/
Ginni,
You can see in the first picture I posted how the shafts have dried to a pale greyish green, they were dried for about a month to get to this stage. The amount of time I spent heating each shaft depended on how easy they were to straighten but I'd guess it was around twenty minutes per arrow. Even after that time, I had areas that still looked a bit greenish. Sanding away the outer skin revealed a light brown colour underneath, similar to untreated POC shafts.
I found that with heating, they sweat a waxy substance and are easily straightened at this point. I wondered the same as you because they were still fairly light in colour and I was worried about heating them too much. It is easy to scorch them if you are not careful.
The diameter of the shaft is no clue to the weight as some are more dense than others. Of the dozen I have prepared I have been lucky, I have seven that range from 330gr to 355gr and five from 300gr to 317gr. I've begun making horn nocks and these weigh around 20gr. My POC arrows are around 400gr so I'm a bit concerned that the finished arrows may end up a bit on the heavy side.
You can see in the first picture I posted how the shafts have dried to a pale greyish green, they were dried for about a month to get to this stage. The amount of time I spent heating each shaft depended on how easy they were to straighten but I'd guess it was around twenty minutes per arrow. Even after that time, I had areas that still looked a bit greenish. Sanding away the outer skin revealed a light brown colour underneath, similar to untreated POC shafts.
I found that with heating, they sweat a waxy substance and are easily straightened at this point. I wondered the same as you because they were still fairly light in colour and I was worried about heating them too much. It is easy to scorch them if you are not careful.
The diameter of the shaft is no clue to the weight as some are more dense than others. Of the dozen I have prepared I have been lucky, I have seven that range from 330gr to 355gr and five from 300gr to 317gr. I've begun making horn nocks and these weigh around 20gr. My POC arrows are around 400gr so I'm a bit concerned that the finished arrows may end up a bit on the heavy side.
I would not make a big deal over heating. Old illustrations and Thomas' tape do show heating the entire shaft; I do this just enough to remove the wax. Honestly, the difference in strength between a heated and never heated shaft does escapes me. It is much easier to straighten a shaft if only the area desired to be bent is heated. Reheating a straightened area tends to induce the bend to return. So if you must heat treat a shaft, do it before straightening the shaft.
I cannot recall any specific information that heating wood eighter improves or degrades charistics in wood. However, I have never seen a Japanese, Korean or Persian bamboo arrow with a scorch mark on it. This much heat is unnecessary and possibly damaging.
Khan; one month may be too little drying time. You will notice pale shafts are not as mature/heavy as others. You gave the weight but not the length. -j-
I cannot recall any specific information that heating wood eighter improves or degrades charistics in wood. However, I have never seen a Japanese, Korean or Persian bamboo arrow with a scorch mark on it. This much heat is unnecessary and possibly damaging.
Khan; one month may be too little drying time. You will notice pale shafts are not as mature/heavy as others. You gave the weight but not the length. -j-
Very true, I found exactly that. You get somewhere near straight only to see the shaft return to its original shape.jack farrell wrote:
It is much easier to straighten a shaft if only the area desired to be bent is heated. Reheating a straightened area tends to induce the bend to return.
The shafts in the first picture are still drying, the ones I am working on were an earlier batch. I still have the thicker offcuts from the early batch and interestingly most of these have dried to a light golden brown.
I straightened three more shafts today that were around 300gr so I may yet achieve six arrows around 400gr finished.
I've cut them all to 30 inches. My POC are 29 inches.
According to Thomas' graph a 6 1/2 don arrow would weigh 376 grains, 75 grains of that would be point, leaving 300 grains for the shaft which would suit a 45-50# bow ( this would be a totally dry shaft). I find that to be accurate but bamboo shafts have a somewhat more variable range so possibly 300 grains (could go to 32 inches) would be good to that draw weight, possibly more or less.
Remember I told you that 20 grams would suit most archers (312 grains)? -j-
Remember I told you that 20 grams would suit most archers (312 grains)? -j-
Well folks; Today I had the distinct pleasure of visiting with a Korean arrow maker. He dries his shafts one year and roasts the entire shaft claiming that it lowers the weight, increases strength and elasticity. There you go straight from the horse's mouth. -j-
Unfortunately, as was discussed at WTAF, the stable is in danger of becoming empty... :(jack farrell wrote:
There you go straight from the horse's mouth. -j-
Let's hear about your journey to Paju, Jack :)
T
moved post to general discussion, Korea. -j-
Jack,
I have seen film of Japanese archers heating the entire shaft while straightening it. Added to your experience, this suggests that it was a very common method. The Bhutanese do not heat the shaft according to a conversation I had with Tsewang Nidup in Fort Dodge. Most of the Indo-Persian arrows I have show signs of heat treatment.
In the Traditional Archers Bible, there are comments to the effect that heat treatment hardens shafts made from shoots. I think it was in the context of making grooved arrows in the plains fashion. I have not tested this myself though it should be easy enough to test a shaft, heat treat it and re-test.
I have seen film of Japanese archers heating the entire shaft while straightening it. Added to your experience, this suggests that it was a very common method. The Bhutanese do not heat the shaft according to a conversation I had with Tsewang Nidup in Fort Dodge. Most of the Indo-Persian arrows I have show signs of heat treatment.
In the Traditional Archers Bible, there are comments to the effect that heat treatment hardens shafts made from shoots. I think it was in the context of making grooved arrows in the plains fashion. I have not tested this myself though it should be easy enough to test a shaft, heat treat it and re-test.
Was taught a trick by the arrowmaker. He makes the "OK" sign with his left hand palm up making a cradle to hold the fletching end of an arrow spinning on the left middle fingernail. With the right thumb and middle finger, like clicking your fingers, he spins the arrow from the point end.
you can tell by how much noise the arrow makes how straight it is. -j-
you can tell by how much noise the arrow makes how straight it is. -j-
Jack,
There are paintings of this from the 10th century. Good ideas seem to last. It is a bit difficult until you get used to it though. As usual, when a group of archers get together, there are things to learn.
There are paintings of this from the 10th century. Good ideas seem to last. It is a bit difficult until you get used to it though. As usual, when a group of archers get together, there are things to learn.
While examining a Korean arrow which was given to me by the fletcher, I noticed what I would usually think of as wood borer holes in the eyes, just above the nodes. As the arrows were represented as "old style" arrows I thought nothing of them having made out of seconds. After reading Thomas D's new book on Korean archery, I find out that a tiny pin hole is punched there to release steam during heating.
It is always possible that the heating is to kill/prevent borers. -j-
It is always possible that the heating is to kill/prevent borers. -j-
Feeling a bit stupid now. :oops:
I read that once ;
"....very fine awl (or pin) to poke each chamber at the node (this lets steam pressure escape)...."
and for some reason I thought that would be poking through the nodes inside the shaft.
Not having such a long awl I abandoned the idea.
Makes more sense now that's for sure.
I read that once ;
"....very fine awl (or pin) to poke each chamber at the node (this lets steam pressure escape)...."
and for some reason I thought that would be poking through the nodes inside the shaft.
Not having such a long awl I abandoned the idea.
Makes more sense now that's for sure.
Just for the record, my wife has ditched her woods since she tried a few bamboo arrows I made for her. Maybe not twice as fast but definitely much faster than her woods. They taper nicely from 5/16" down to about 1/4" lashed behind the fletchings to a self nock.
Just my idle curiosity, how do they compare to carbon and aluminium arrows?
Mike
Mike
Well I have made up my first second and thrid dozen caane arrows last week in different styles and designs. (I don't ahve any pictures yet). NOt only did I enjoy making and shooting them. But I purposely abused them, to test their durablity. And I was impressed! And for some reason I was expecting them to fly different then my wood arrows, But I matched up the weight, and mixed in some wood ones and they all grouped in the same. I am very pleased!
Matt
Matt
As a matter of interest, I shot both modern-material Korean arrows and bamboo arrows at the same target and found that the bamboo arrows flew straighter and were more predictable.
Perhaps this was because the natural feathers on the bamboo were more forgiving than the plastic vanes on the modern style arrows. It wasn't a scientific test and certainly not definitive.
Perhaps this was because the natural feathers on the bamboo were more forgiving than the plastic vanes on the modern style arrows. It wasn't a scientific test and certainly not definitive.
I have found that not only is the fletching of Korean bamboo arrows softer than the vanes found on carbons, the spine is much more pliable. Korean carbons are quite stiff and were not intended for short distance shooting; over 145m the paradox will work itself out, so spine is generally not an issue. In my opinion, bamboo tends to be very forgiving spine-wise, and can thus be used for either short or long distance shooting with a variety of bow draw weights.
T
T
Mike,
You just swore :wink: I'll be honest, I've never used ali or carbons.
I've mentioned before that my wife uses a 25# Grozer Hun (she's only a little 'un) and she is drawing less than that at 26". Her bamboos are about as fast as my woods, the compound archers especially were impressed with the difference. Everyone has asked the same questions though...
Are they weak here? (the node)
Can't you sand this down further? Won't it affect the flight? (the eyes)
I quoted some of the stats from the Hwarangarchery site and they were amazed at the speeds, even more so when told what kind of bow was used.
You just swore :wink: I'll be honest, I've never used ali or carbons.
I've mentioned before that my wife uses a 25# Grozer Hun (she's only a little 'un) and she is drawing less than that at 26". Her bamboos are about as fast as my woods, the compound archers especially were impressed with the difference. Everyone has asked the same questions though...
Are they weak here? (the node)
Can't you sand this down further? Won't it affect the flight? (the eyes)
I quoted some of the stats from the Hwarangarchery site and they were amazed at the speeds, even more so when told what kind of bow was used.
If you cut a bamboo shaft in half lengthwise you will see that the nodes are solid. I am talking about the round cross sectioned Pseudo-Sasa species. I am looking a section now and it is hard all the way through and the fibres run fairly straight.
I have not done this with other species of bamboo. Phragmites reeds are hollow in the nodes except for a thin septum which has no strength. I am only talking about the ones I have examined.
I have not done this with other species of bamboo. Phragmites reeds are hollow in the nodes except for a thin septum which has no strength. I am only talking about the ones I have examined.
Do you put on a seal or finish on your bamboo arrows? And if so what do you use?
Matt
Matt
That's right Bede, if anything the node is probably the strongest part. As for the eyes, it's the fact that the shaft is not perfect, therefore the performance, theoretically, should suffer. Whether they would indeed perform better without this small indentation we will never know but they certainly fly very well. The flight is straight, they strike the target at right angles and they are fast, which is all one could hope for. Of course there are other aspects, smooth as glass, beautifully subtle individual colour tones, especially around the nodes and not least, the knowledge they are home grown.
Bustedarrow,
I applied varnish between the fletchings, over the lashing and the self nock. The rest of the shaft I used car wax as the Koreans suggest.
Bustedarrow,
I applied varnish between the fletchings, over the lashing and the self nock. The rest of the shaft I used car wax as the Koreans suggest.
I am sorely tempted to run on down to the local garden center and pick up some of this bamboo. I am right in thinking that Arundinaria is the stuff we usually see?
Regarding the nocks, I've see full horn ones that are stuck on much like modern plastic snap nocks, and I've also seen self nocks with horn inserts. Are either of those stronger?
I did have a play with some bamboo when I first started shooting, It struck me as odd that my wooden arrows were flimsier and heavier than beanpoles.
Mike
Regarding the nocks, I've see full horn ones that are stuck on much like modern plastic snap nocks, and I've also seen self nocks with horn inserts. Are either of those stronger?
I did have a play with some bamboo when I first started shooting, It struck me as odd that my wooden arrows were flimsier and heavier than beanpoles.
Mike
Hello Mike,
As you know, I began with making shafts with horn insert nocks that I fashioned out of water buffalo horn dowels. I finished a few of these and it was the work involved that made me decide to go with self nocks on the arrows I made for the wife. To be honest and I'm not sure if it is anything to do with the horn etc but hers turned out much better. I will be using self nocks on all in future. The problem I envisage with with obtaining shafts from a garden centre is matching weights and finding a small enough diameter. From the culms I cut I had matching diameters that were as much as 70 or more grains in difference. As these dry further I expect to see the weight drop and hopefully I will get enough of the correct weight to make a good matching set.
I am currently setting up a new PC and as soon as I get the chance to reduce the photos I have I will post them. Fitted with 63gr piles and 4" fletchings, hers weigh in at around 260gr.
edit: Silly me :oops: here they are
As you know, I began with making shafts with horn insert nocks that I fashioned out of water buffalo horn dowels. I finished a few of these and it was the work involved that made me decide to go with self nocks on the arrows I made for the wife. To be honest and I'm not sure if it is anything to do with the horn etc but hers turned out much better. I will be using self nocks on all in future. The problem I envisage with with obtaining shafts from a garden centre is matching weights and finding a small enough diameter. From the culms I cut I had matching diameters that were as much as 70 or more grains in difference. As these dry further I expect to see the weight drop and hopefully I will get enough of the correct weight to make a good matching set.
I am currently setting up a new PC and as soon as I get the chance to reduce the photos I have I will post them. Fitted with 63gr piles and 4" fletchings, hers weigh in at around 260gr.
edit: Silly me :oops: here they are
Beautiful Orda, they look very proffesional.
I don't think I will have a huge problem finding the right diameter, I use 23/64ths anyway.
It seems that most people dry-heat to straighten the shafts, is batch steaming acceptable here as well? (I'm guessing already that the answer is 'try it')
Mike
I don't think I will have a huge problem finding the right diameter, I use 23/64ths anyway.
It seems that most people dry-heat to straighten the shafts, is batch steaming acceptable here as well? (I'm guessing already that the answer is 'try it')
Mike
Rejoice: For those living in the USA, Home Depot gardening department has started selling bamboo sticks good for arrows; $1.65 for 6 shafts. Of course you need many to make a set as some are too large, too small or damaged.
It may be impossible to determine exactly the species but appear equal to arundinaria.
Orda; Beautiful arrows, white eyes, white nock lining. Painting the inside of the nock actually helps see the arrow in the target, as you must know. Superior workmanship. -j-
It may be impossible to determine exactly the species but appear equal to arundinaria.
Orda; Beautiful arrows, white eyes, white nock lining. Painting the inside of the nock actually helps see the arrow in the target, as you must know. Superior workmanship. -j-
Thank you Mike and Jack.
I used a small POC insert at the nocks which I think finished them a little nicer than leaving a hollow. Unfortunately the auto flash spoiled the second photo a bit.
I used a small POC insert at the nocks which I think finished them a little nicer than leaving a hollow. Unfortunately the auto flash spoiled the second photo a bit.
What is POC?
Port Orford Cedar.
I've always used POC shafts and being a natural hoarder I have many off cuts which I knew would come in handy one day :wink:
I've always used POC shafts and being a natural hoarder I have many off cuts which I knew would come in handy one day :wink: