shooting technique

Hi Eugen,

I would really need to see your form in order to figure out what the cause of the problem is. However, I can venture a couple guesses.

Are you shooting with fingers or a thumb ring? It sounds like fingers, due to the arm slap. Torquing the bow would work well when shooting with a thumb ring, but I think it might be a bit disadvantageous with fingers; it would make the string turn towards the outside of the bow, but your arrow is on the opposite side. Try not torquing the handle and see what happens.

Also, make sure you are gripping the bow correctly. The handle should be diagonal across the palm, with the bottom (the wide part of the handle) placed into the heel of the palm. Grip the bow firmly, but not tightly. There should be about a three finger space between your forearm and the string. Make sure the inside of your forearm is perpendicular to the ground (parallel to the string), so that your elbow does not lean in towards the string.

The image url you put (picasaweb.google.co.uk/le...6894272466) unfortunately was truncated, making it invalid. I would like to see your drawing.



Thomas

Hi Thomas!

Thanks for your reply!

I shot with an amgakji thumbring, made by my self, with 33''-34'' draw lenght, the bow is 15 degrees inclined, arrow touching the chin and the string in touch with my cheekbone, as I seen on the korean archers.

I usually do what you say, the diagonal grip and the forearm position (the direction of the elbow is parallel to the ground).

I am not sure about the distance between forearm and string.

I will show you some pics soon.

I put about 45 degrees between the bow hand direction and the bow axis.

hai ginni, your english not badly than me and you just do the things i want to do! the snow and big wind can not allow i shoot arrows!

in my guess:


torque: before you are aiming, the torque done, it will mean your forearm as a beeline(elbow joint and wrist), your hand has some angle away to the beeline turn more right.

twist: when your torque done(arrow not shoot) but your right hand keep the position, the forefinger will flank the bowstrings and has a few suffering, your hand draw the strings away to the axis of the bow(right side of axis), also when this step done the bow lamb twist.

relese: when the right hand release, the shake of the bow will take your left hand move more left , or your do it voluntary.

the arrow will not contact the bow , along the arrows beeline your are aiming flying, and so fast than your draw along same direction of the axis of the bow , the bow lamb rebound from transverse(x axis) and lengthways(y axis)

is my guess correct?

how does a pill not hit the axis of bow ? it is one elements but the torque (torsion)/ not torque (torsion) direction different?

I am not sure I understand right what you are saying.

At first I have try to twist the bow hand to the left in the shooting moment. I have find it some how hard to manage the twist. After that I try to put torque from the drawing start to the full draw. When I shot the bow hand go slightly to left and arrow is going straight and after that the bow hand rest in the position before drawing. Now I think this is not right, as Thomas said it must be a shorter distance between bow string and forearm in the relaxed position, before drawing, so a lower angle, not 45 degrees but about 10 or 15 degrees between bow axis and forearm direction (pushing or drawing axis).

So I will restart at the beginning until I will make it right.

Eugen,

If you can get someone to take some pictures of you shooting, I might be able to visualize what's happening better.


T

Thomas,

I have make today this picture.

I have make a short movie with my photo camera, not high quality.

You can see the movie here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEUTfsYdHBI

I have try to put less torque in the bow hand.
The arrow is 33,5 inch long from nock to base of the tip.
Usually I draw until the tip is on the thumb, but now I draw little shorter, after the arrow breakage.

Can help me to correct my technique?
And how about the lenght of draw?
I have seen korean archers using different draw length ( the position of the draw hand related to the body), between the ear line to the right shoulder, how each archer choose the proper draw lenght?

In my case I feel much comfortable with a little longer draw, 34,5-35", but the bow become very hard to handle over 33, and on the other side I cannot find over33,5" lenght.

Eugen,

I watched the video clip. Actually, your form looks pretty good. How did your arrows fly? The only thing might be a bit too much pronounced twist in the handle upon release, but not by much.

Would it be possible to see hand grips (both bow and draw hands) at full draw?


Thomas

Thomas,

Now I don't have a picture with hand in a closer view.
I will post it when a will have.

Today I have shot with my sugakji ring, because my thumb nail is beated and is blue now, so is very painfull nearly impossible to shot with amgakji.

With the sugakji ring I was able to shot at first time, after a while I turn to amgakji, this is a better way I think, the release seems to be softer and with much accuracy; the sugakji ring have a brutal and noisy release.

What ring use the koreans for strong bows?

My bow have 86 lbs@33".

And how with the draw lenght? For example I seen in pictures that you have a draw to ear line, and your son draw about two inches longer, closer to the shoulder.
The archer can choose the comfortable position or what?
And in other pics I seen archers with a high position, the arrow touch the cheek near to mouth.

And the last problem I hope. I use to check the equipment at every shooting round, especially the arrows.
Today was happening what you see in the picture. The nock was ok before that.

I fill some fear now, after the fourth dry shoot and I am starting to lose my confidence. I do not know anybody having my problems.
Almost erevy shooting day is something bad happening.
How much can a bow resist in this way? :cry:

I looked at your video too, but I cannot make comments about your shooting style in regard to Korean technique. After reading your description of the bow, I can make one observation. I noticed you dropped you bow arm very rapidly after the shot. Has this caused you any problems?

Are your nocks very tight? Strong bows often split tightly fitting nocks. This can happen after the first shot or after the fiftieth.

Eugen,

What Bede said seems quite likely, that you have nocks that are too tight. Also, as your bow has a relatively heavy draw weight, I would be curious to know what your arrows are spined for.

Traditionally, the sugakji was often used for heavy bows, although people use it today for most any draw weight. If the sugakji has a long knob (as do the type I send to people), it could create some string clearance issues; I recommend that people trim it and also curve it up a bit--that might relieve some of the problems you had with it.

Please, don't let your confidence drop! I wish you and I could meet and work out the problem with your shooting; however, it's a bit of a trek between Romania and Korea :D Let's just keep trying to rule things out so we can find what's going on.


Thomas

The arrows are not tight, but for safety I will fill a little the arrows nocks.

About the dropping hand, I see that movement in the video too.

Compared with the korean archers (the movies made by Thomas with amgakji/sugakji shooting archers), they don't drop the hand, so I am sure this is a mistake.

Have try to work at that, but there are a lot of things to keep in my mind and this issue usually rest at last.

Thanks!

That looks painful. Have you considered changing the nocks? It's just an observation but I've always found the 'clear' plastic nocks more brittle than normal plastic nocks. Maybe horn insert nocks would be better still. Good luck.

Ginni; Are those ash arrows? The grain on the broken arrow is short. It crosses diagonally at the break.

Though the others are not saying so, what you are doing is very dangerous. One should learn to shoot on a light bow and work up to a strong bow. I can see how easily you draw this bow but you are hurting yourself.

These arrows are inferior for this bow. The shafts are not good enough nor are the nocks. Self nocks with good thread lashings which are lacquered, glued or painted would be also be necessary. you also need a good lash on the leading end of the fletch, no tape. But clearly the short grain cannot take the stress. The arrow shaft broke first and opened and broke the nock.

Bede can research Arab archery or etc for the Rx for your sore thumb. Now is the time for the strong bow proponents to come to your aid before you need a surgeon to remove an arrow from your hand. I have met two people who have had broken arrows removed by surgeons.

Be kind to yourself. Take a break and reasses what you are doing. -j-

Jack,

The arrows are made from spruce, 10 mm diameter with three layers of nitrolac.

Do you believe that spruce is not good for arrow shafts?

Ginni; Spruce makes good arrows but you need special, perfect arrows for a strong bow like yours. The maker of the bow would probably recommend special bamboo arrows.

Look at the grain on the broken arrow. It is short grain. -j-

It seems to me the arrows do not have enough spine for 86lb@33". I would think you need arrows spined #100+. Such arrows are probably best made of bamboo.

I am no expert on Korean technique, but the blue thumb means it is hit badly by the string on release. The fit of your ring is probably not good - I would try to make sure the ring is not too loose on your thumb. It also seems your index finger is curved too much and/or too tensed, so the thumb is held by it too long, causing the pinch. I also find too much flex in the thumb is not a good idea for heavier bows, because it tends to put too much pressure on the tip of thumb during release.

Adam

Adam,

I agree with you about the flex of the thumb. I have observed that with too much flex, around 90 degrees, the pressure will be concentrated to the joint between the first and second phalanges of the thumb with a lot a pain, so that way cannot be suitable for my bow. I cannot draw at full the bow in this manner.
With an more open thumb and with the index anchor on the base of the thumb tip, I find is hard to manage the pressure to the arrow, so the arrow will stay bended; in order to put less pressure on the arrow, in a controllable way, it must rotate a little the index plane, but it will intersect the string plane, so the string can hit the index tip and this hurt like hell.

The solution seem to be an anchor with the index on the thumb nail, the release is very clean and the pressure on the arrow is controlable. But after three consecutive days of shooting- I think I have shot 700-800 arrows- the thumb nail have a blue-mauve painful spot in the middle and now I cannot shot with the lipped ring.

The ring I use is made from copper plate, and the hole is adjustable, so I can make it tight or loose.

How archers shot with really heavy flight bows?


Jack,

The arrow is not splinted along the wood grain; the wood is good, stiff and with long dense grain. The spine was 105 lbs.

Course, the bamboo arrows are the best, but tell me where can I buy pseudosasa shafts?
This is a problem for me, I cannot find anywhere.

Maybe you can sell some from your garden? :D

Yes, the index finger over the nail is the way to go. I actually cover only the tip half of the thumb nail with my index finger. This can vary depending how long are the fingers though.

It would best now to wait for the thumb to heal. Then shoot again as you did, but make sure last three fingers are very tightly curled and pressed hard into you palm and the thumb is also pressed hard into the middle finger. This will partly release the tension in your index finger. When you lock, make sure the index finger is not tensed and consciously try to maintain the pressure of other fingers and thumb as before. The index finger should release first - this will let the thumb fly out of the way quickly, so it will not be injured.

You can also slightly twist your hand couterclockwise on release, so the string will clear the index finger better.

I am not sure what you mean by adjusting the hole in the ring. The hole should be so shaped that the ring sits tight against the sides of the thumb joint, but can be loose and pivot forward and backward (this is why the hole can have an oval shape).

Good luck with your heavy bows, I am glad someone tries.

Adam

Twisting the draw hand ccw is a good solution to keep save the index. But this way the string will be not in a straight line.

Jiao has posted a question about this problem and Thomas said that is not the right way, or that is what I have understand.
Still, in the pics some korean archers using amgakji rings looks twisting a little the draw hand to left - ccw, their strings is not a straight line.

Two questions:
1. When the string is released, it will put a clockwise rotation to the arrow because some energy is stored by twisting the draw hand?
2. Can this twist put more stress or pressure to the arrow nock and that can cause my accident? Course, together with others bad circumstances, like the tight nocking.
I have make this movement instinctively to protect my left index.

It seems to be a serious misunderstanding here. The twisting motion I was talking about is a slight counterclockwise twist, done (by the wrist) at the moment of release. Otherwise there is no torque on the string at all and the draw is straight as usual, with no pressure on the string from the index finger. This twist has no effect whatsoever on the energy of arrow. All that happens is that the tip of the index finger moves counterclockwise to the right, while it lifts off the thumb, thus clearing the way for the string. This is an alternative technique, but not at all essential for handling heavy bows. If you are left handed, reverse the direction of twist etc.

I understood your problem as bruising of the thumb. The bruising is caused by the index finger holding the thumb (and in effect the string)too long which does not allow the thumb to move away. The thumb is momentarily squeezed between the index finger and the string. The great pressure on the thumb tip causes the injury. The index finger does that, because it is forced to support the full pressure of thumb/string. Essentially this way you draw not with your thumb, but with your index finger, while the thumb sits there doing nothing. The problems may not be noticeable with light weight bows, but with heavy bows it may not work well. The solution is to make the other fingers and the thumb work harder, by exerting pressure on each other as I described in the previous post. Then the tension on the index finger is partly released, so it can clear the way for the thumb better.

I believe you can still learn to shoot correctly, but perhaps as others suggested, a light weight bow ma be a better solution for now.

Adam

i borrow my friend's 45#skb, has no other handle add to the bow , difficulty twist the bow , but i find if your hand hold handle more right,use the middle part of your hand on index finger and thumb hold the handle , it will so easy twist, before first step , we are wrong, i am not sure you can use a 83#bow do it

after i twist the bow , bow lamb also twist , and the bow strings away form the middle line of the bow ,waiting i has more time do more test and i will post more, some trouble of language real bug one

Many Korean archers will, like Adam said, give a slight CCW twist to the wrist at full draw, at time of release.


T

Ok!

I think the problem is solved (at least the theoretycal part).
After my nail will grow and the thumb will heal I will put all advices in practice.
Now I use a sugakji thumb ring.

It is a physics principle, not sure I can translate right:

Quantitative accumulations makes qualitative jumps.

So practice is always the answer. Unfortunately bad practice make blue nail, not better shots.

Thanks you all for helping me!

Quantitative accumulations makes qualitative jumps

materialism?

today , me also split 2 arrows form nock :shock: i useing a 45#skb only

same result to this picture

[external image]

the distance of the bowstring between the handle so short, put an arrow to bowstirng, look what angle the arrows and the handle,if the nock too tight hold the bowstring , it is a split arrow bow

right?