the Greek bow is back
We?ve just finished a researching- project about different types of Greek hornsbows. The leader of the project is Erhard Godehard, I?m the bowyer, historians, technicians and engineers are involved too.
The first bow I want to present here is the so- called bow of the Goddess.
A bow told to be non- shootable, according to its reversed recurve, legends tell that such ends of a bow mean that the Gods should not be able to shoot at human beings.
I like to study everything conncted to Gods in its material and spiritual sense, cause it tells a lot about our ancestors and our existence on this planet.
I find this bow an out- standing beauty too.
We decided to do it as a horn- composite(waterbuffalo, mountain-maple, buffalo- sinew).
At first it looks like the reversed recurves would a kind of weaken the composite. But when I checked the tiller I realized that the bend of the limbs is beginning at the ends of the limbs, the whole limb is used by this design, from that moment on I love this design. Draw starts with almost zero, rises till 18"- drawlength very slowly to 22lbs and till 26" drawlength, drawwweight rises to 44lbs. Speed is 145f/s shot with a 22grams- arrow.
For sure it is possible to draw this bow further.
This bow is a very comfortable shooter, you could get hooked on shooting it.
It is a great option for archers who are used to drawlenghts more than 28".
I think this bow is as a horn- composite overbuilt, it is for sure possible to do it in wood only, maybe sinew-backed.
I want to add that my experience with this design leads me to check out other ways to make bows more effective. Reduction of limbmass or reducing the bending- zone of the limbs is limited.
I believe more in what I call the dynamics of a bow: make bend what makes sense to be bend.
My first trial with this bow was to weak, 25lbs at 26".
I decided to cut the bow in the middle and to join the 2 parts at 12cm lengthwise again. By the way this operation allows an always welcome insight at the profiled glue-line. The joint was completely sinew- wrapped.
I hope this reconstruction will enforce you to look out for more strange or bizarre looking traditional designs, I?m sure there is lot to explore and lots of "new" ways for making bows more effective.
Michael
The first bow I want to present here is the so- called bow of the Goddess.
A bow told to be non- shootable, according to its reversed recurve, legends tell that such ends of a bow mean that the Gods should not be able to shoot at human beings.
I like to study everything conncted to Gods in its material and spiritual sense, cause it tells a lot about our ancestors and our existence on this planet.
I find this bow an out- standing beauty too.
We decided to do it as a horn- composite(waterbuffalo, mountain-maple, buffalo- sinew).
At first it looks like the reversed recurves would a kind of weaken the composite. But when I checked the tiller I realized that the bend of the limbs is beginning at the ends of the limbs, the whole limb is used by this design, from that moment on I love this design. Draw starts with almost zero, rises till 18"- drawlength very slowly to 22lbs and till 26" drawlength, drawwweight rises to 44lbs. Speed is 145f/s shot with a 22grams- arrow.
For sure it is possible to draw this bow further.
This bow is a very comfortable shooter, you could get hooked on shooting it.
It is a great option for archers who are used to drawlenghts more than 28".
I think this bow is as a horn- composite overbuilt, it is for sure possible to do it in wood only, maybe sinew-backed.
I want to add that my experience with this design leads me to check out other ways to make bows more effective. Reduction of limbmass or reducing the bending- zone of the limbs is limited.
I believe more in what I call the dynamics of a bow: make bend what makes sense to be bend.
My first trial with this bow was to weak, 25lbs at 26".
I decided to cut the bow in the middle and to join the 2 parts at 12cm lengthwise again. By the way this operation allows an always welcome insight at the profiled glue-line. The joint was completely sinew- wrapped.
I hope this reconstruction will enforce you to look out for more strange or bizarre looking traditional designs, I?m sure there is lot to explore and lots of "new" ways for making bows more effective.
Michael
Hasn't these type of bow a recurce part on the ends on the picture "Apollon and Athene are killing the children of Niobe" ?(Both gods are shooting with that kind of bow, Apollon is totally naked, but Athene is clothed well:-) And the bows don't have non bending siyahs.
I want to add the pics of the enforcement of the bow and one of the pics about the bows origin.
My first trial of this bow was to weak, I didn?t have any experience with this design, maybe I?m the first bowyer who tried to reconstruct such a bow. So I decided to cut the bow and to rejoin it for to shorten it and so to enforce it. Between the 2 reversed recurves the length of the bow is 98 cm.
I?m persuaded by the efficiency of this design, without having calculated it exactly the bow?s effiency seems to be good. I?m looking forward to the exactly tests with this bow with a shooting- machine.
After having done this bow, I have the serious suspect that the selfbows found in tut-enk-amuns grave were posted backwards ( see McLeod plate 3)
Michael
PS: No pics! You?ve reached your max. upload quota.....?
For the origin of this bow have a look at www.redhawk-online.com
My first trial of this bow was to weak, I didn?t have any experience with this design, maybe I?m the first bowyer who tried to reconstruct such a bow. So I decided to cut the bow and to rejoin it for to shorten it and so to enforce it. Between the 2 reversed recurves the length of the bow is 98 cm.
I?m persuaded by the efficiency of this design, without having calculated it exactly the bow?s effiency seems to be good. I?m looking forward to the exactly tests with this bow with a shooting- machine.
After having done this bow, I have the serious suspect that the selfbows found in tut-enk-amuns grave were posted backwards ( see McLeod plate 3)
Michael
PS: No pics! You?ve reached your max. upload quota.....?
For the origin of this bow have a look at www.redhawk-online.com
Redhawk,
The self bows in Tutankhamen's tomb are well documented and descendants of the design are still used in Somalia. There are large numbers of illustrations of self bows in Egyptian art and they all replicate the form of the Tutankhamen self bows. They have low brace heights and deflexed tips. The design purpose was to maintain low stress while braced.
Similar types of bows are known from North America. It was suspected there that one of the reasons for the design was the poor quality of the woods available in the areas where they were made.
I have seen one of the Egyptian bows up close in the Grayson Collection. You could see the tool marks and how it was constructed. It conformed to the descriptions in McLeod's book.
The self bows in Tutankhamen's tomb are well documented and descendants of the design are still used in Somalia. There are large numbers of illustrations of self bows in Egyptian art and they all replicate the form of the Tutankhamen self bows. They have low brace heights and deflexed tips. The design purpose was to maintain low stress while braced.
Similar types of bows are known from North America. It was suspected there that one of the reasons for the design was the poor quality of the woods available in the areas where they were made.
I have seen one of the Egyptian bows up close in the Grayson Collection. You could see the tool marks and how it was constructed. It conformed to the descriptions in McLeod's book.
Bede,
my suspect is based on the fact that McLeod has posted these selfbows sometimes with the back up, sometimes with the back down, so whats back or belly?
My suspect is based on the fact that this design is efficient enough to make a good bow, cause it makes the whole limb working.
The Native Americans you?re talking about are the Paiutes, they made very long bows of a special kind of willow, which is nornally a poor wood for bows, but we should remind the great statement of Tim Baker: a good bow is a question of design.
Due to the force of habit we lose sight of traditional bows not so much known as the traditonal mainstream. If we don?t take care many bows will be lost forever.
Michael
my suspect is based on the fact that McLeod has posted these selfbows sometimes with the back up, sometimes with the back down, so whats back or belly?
My suspect is based on the fact that this design is efficient enough to make a good bow, cause it makes the whole limb working.
The Native Americans you?re talking about are the Paiutes, they made very long bows of a special kind of willow, which is nornally a poor wood for bows, but we should remind the great statement of Tim Baker: a good bow is a question of design.
Due to the force of habit we lose sight of traditional bows not so much known as the traditonal mainstream. If we don?t take care many bows will be lost forever.
Michael
Redhawk,
When McLeod published his books, illustrations were much more expensive to include than they are now. The bows are described in detail in the text and that was considered at the time the best they could do. The photographs were not organised to show the relative backs and bellies of the bows, but to fit as many bows into a small space as possible so that they could be fitted into one photograph.
They are usually of circular cross section with tapered tips. There is not much chance that the middle third bent very much because of its relative thickness. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there are Egyptian illustrations of the bows in use. There is no doubt about their orientation, only their efficiency.
When McLeod published his books, illustrations were much more expensive to include than they are now. The bows are described in detail in the text and that was considered at the time the best they could do. The photographs were not organised to show the relative backs and bellies of the bows, but to fit as many bows into a small space as possible so that they could be fitted into one photograph.
They are usually of circular cross section with tapered tips. There is not much chance that the middle third bent very much because of its relative thickness. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there are Egyptian illustrations of the bows in use. There is no doubt about their orientation, only their efficiency.
Bede,
O. k., the Egyptian illustrations about these bows in use tell the truth.
But anyway long selfbows with sharp recurves make no sense?
I would like to check out this design.
Where could I find these illustrations?
As I?ve told the design of this type of Greek bows is surprisingly efficient and has some advantages.
Michael
O. k., the Egyptian illustrations about these bows in use tell the truth.
But anyway long selfbows with sharp recurves make no sense?
I would like to check out this design.
Where could I find these illustrations?
As I?ve told the design of this type of Greek bows is surprisingly efficient and has some advantages.
Michael
Michael,
I think it is worthwhile to experiment with the sharp recurves. You might produce a very efficient bow. Do you intend to try working or static recurves?
The illustrations I referred to were from 4th dynasty tombs onwards. I will look up the books and see what I can find for you.
I think it is worthwhile to experiment with the sharp recurves. You might produce a very efficient bow. Do you intend to try working or static recurves?
The illustrations I referred to were from 4th dynasty tombs onwards. I will look up the books and see what I can find for you.
Bede, just yesterday I?ve had a discussion about my upcoming project focused on some bows found in the grave of tut- enk- amun which were not yet researched. Angular bows have been reconstructed by Jack Farrell, McEwen and Novottny. So we?ll try it with the split- limbs and maybe with these selfbows.
I don?t think that the recurves are working, longbows with working recurves make not to much sense. But since my recently experience done with the Greek hornbows (there are stlill 5 bows to be posted here within the next weeks) I?m in doubt about recurves.
A static recurve shortens the bow and makes it stronger more than a working recurve. But what makes a working recurve exactly?
For to check it out a bit more I?ve done a test-bow( black locust, sinew- backed, 130cm in length, 24" drawlength, 40lbs). I?ll split in different kind of recurves and we?ll test it). We? ll focus on the length and the degree of working (bending) of the recurve and the attachment( nocks) of the string.
If you could send me some of your illustrations of the Egytian selfbows it will be welcome, I?ve studied a lot about Egytian bows but I think there is more to see.
Michael
I don?t think that the recurves are working, longbows with working recurves make not to much sense. But since my recently experience done with the Greek hornbows (there are stlill 5 bows to be posted here within the next weeks) I?m in doubt about recurves.
A static recurve shortens the bow and makes it stronger more than a working recurve. But what makes a working recurve exactly?
For to check it out a bit more I?ve done a test-bow( black locust, sinew- backed, 130cm in length, 24" drawlength, 40lbs). I?ll split in different kind of recurves and we?ll test it). We? ll focus on the length and the degree of working (bending) of the recurve and the attachment( nocks) of the string.
If you could send me some of your illustrations of the Egytian selfbows it will be welcome, I?ve studied a lot about Egytian bows but I think there is more to see.
Michael
Here are the pics of the enforcing of the bow: cutting and rejoining are shortening the bow at about 12cm and. The drawweight increases from 26lbs to 44lbs at 26" drawlength. This is an option for other bows too, but it don? t work for every design. Sorry for the quality of the pics I took, but I think they work for just to show what I mean.
And here is one of the pics of the bows origin. Notice the grace, dignity, airiness and beauty in the movement of the Goddess.
Michael
And here is one of the pics of the bows origin. Notice the grace, dignity, airiness and beauty in the movement of the Goddess.
Michael
Redhawk, by expanding the picture of the goddess we can clearly notify the decoration of the back of - Right?
Though old sources / books may show or describe this kind of bow almost every stick can be bent, but I doubt this will be an efficient bow. Go ahead I am interested in further results of the Egyptian bows.
Reto
Though old sources / books may show or describe this kind of bow almost every stick can be bent, but I doubt this will be an efficient bow. Go ahead I am interested in further results of the Egyptian bows.
Reto
Interesting pics for you , Redhawk(maybe)
But most paintings and sculpturs show skitian version bow like this.
More Grek heroes vith bows
or this
If I may redhawk, what sort of archaeological evidence have you for your Greek horn bow?
The bow is beautiful and yet rather unorthodox, I wonder how long a draw could be sustained without the string pulling the nock apart?
I did not realize that the Greeks were so fond of archery in mythology, I was under the impression that they regarded it as a womanly weapon (perhaps I've watched too many documentaries on Spartans).
regards
Mike
The bow is beautiful and yet rather unorthodox, I wonder how long a draw could be sustained without the string pulling the nock apart?
I did not realize that the Greeks were so fond of archery in mythology, I was under the impression that they regarded it as a womanly weapon (perhaps I've watched too many documentaries on Spartans).
regards
Mike
Thanks for the pics, but I know almost every one of these pics very well.
I?ve done our interpretation of the very asymmetric bow of Heracles, it will be posted here soon.
Reto, the Goddess?bow performance is surprisingly good, we haven?t
it expected. The reason is, that the reversed recurve makes the whole limb bending, even the grip is bending a bit. Compare it with other hornbows, there is a lot of unused mass.
The outstanding performance of the Turkish hornbows is due to the fact that Turkish bowyers have begun to reduce unused mass and to balance it with the stability as far as possible ( compared with Mongolian, Hunnish and other hornbows....), but this way is also limited. Cause a bow begins to be unstable.
Mike, the reconstructions are based on the pics we?ve found, there is no archaeological evidence of Greek hornbows. Homer has reported of the making of a hornbow in a poem.
I don?t want to call my work "reconstruction", it is an interpretation of a historical posting of a certain bow as a result of the cooperation with my colleagues.
The nocks are fixed with a wooden nail and sinew- wrapping.
The bow was one weapon among others and the Greeks seem to be focused on further- developing military- tactics with other weapons.
Women were absolutely emancipated in Greek at these times.
Michael
I?ve done our interpretation of the very asymmetric bow of Heracles, it will be posted here soon.
Reto, the Goddess?bow performance is surprisingly good, we haven?t
it expected. The reason is, that the reversed recurve makes the whole limb bending, even the grip is bending a bit. Compare it with other hornbows, there is a lot of unused mass.
The outstanding performance of the Turkish hornbows is due to the fact that Turkish bowyers have begun to reduce unused mass and to balance it with the stability as far as possible ( compared with Mongolian, Hunnish and other hornbows....), but this way is also limited. Cause a bow begins to be unstable.
Mike, the reconstructions are based on the pics we?ve found, there is no archaeological evidence of Greek hornbows. Homer has reported of the making of a hornbow in a poem.
I don?t want to call my work "reconstruction", it is an interpretation of a historical posting of a certain bow as a result of the cooperation with my colleagues.
The nocks are fixed with a wooden nail and sinew- wrapping.
The bow was one weapon among others and the Greeks seem to be focused on further- developing military- tactics with other weapons.
Women were absolutely emancipated in Greek at these times.
Michael
Michael, I showed your thread to an instructor in the classics and he said that he had never seen an illustration of one of these bows drawn fully, which, to him meant that the bow is a wood bow.
But I have a different slant on this, just an observation. This is not the correct shape of a self bow of the Tut era, the set-back of the grip is missing and is a prominent part of the design of those bows. But this bow is exactly like a hornbow of the era which strings to an arched shape but with recurves, but here reversed. As this bow was not meant to be shot at people, is it not likely that it is infact a hornbow strung backwards? and therefore unshootable? There was even a thread recently about a yumi strung backwards on purpose.
If a further search turns up an illustration of a fully drawn bow of this design, then there would be reason to declare it a horn bow. If not then maybe one of these two explainations is more likely.
So I agree with Reto. -j-
But I have a different slant on this, just an observation. This is not the correct shape of a self bow of the Tut era, the set-back of the grip is missing and is a prominent part of the design of those bows. But this bow is exactly like a hornbow of the era which strings to an arched shape but with recurves, but here reversed. As this bow was not meant to be shot at people, is it not likely that it is infact a hornbow strung backwards? and therefore unshootable? There was even a thread recently about a yumi strung backwards on purpose.
If a further search turns up an illustration of a fully drawn bow of this design, then there would be reason to declare it a horn bow. If not then maybe one of these two explainations is more likely.
So I agree with Reto. -j-
Jack, there a pics of this bow drawn in the book of R. Toelle- Kastenbein, dated back to about 400- 600 BC
I?ll post them soon here.
I?m almost sure that this bow had been a common bow- design in the ancient Greek, cause this design is efficient enough. Just think about the working whole limb.
Michael
I?ll post them soon here.
I?m almost sure that this bow had been a common bow- design in the ancient Greek, cause this design is efficient enough. Just think about the working whole limb.
Michael
The Eros bow is the most beautiful shape that I have seen!
Wow Jason and I saw those actual pots in a Boston Museum.
Did you v splice the recurves in ,or are they part of the core?
I like the bow ,it sounds like a good design to me. I have a short little straight horn bow ,I made years ago. If I can splice in some reversed recurves like yours, I could get a higher brace and a longer draw.
I think I'll try it , Thanks.
Ralph
I like the bow ,it sounds like a good design to me. I have a short little straight horn bow ,I made years ago. If I can splice in some reversed recurves like yours, I could get a higher brace and a longer draw.
I think I'll try it , Thanks.
Ralph
Hi Ralph, the re-recurves are steam-bent, they are not backed neither horn nor sinew.
It should be no problem to v- splice in re-recurves to your small hornbow, and so to get a longer draw.
Tell me how the bow is working after your tuning.
Michael
It should be no problem to v- splice in re-recurves to your small hornbow, and so to get a longer draw.
Tell me how the bow is working after your tuning.
Michael
hm. I wonder if this design could be used for wooden crossbow prods. high weight and long draw without ridiculously long prod.
edit: but as more as I think the more I ask myself how is this different then simply deflexed bow along it's entire limbs????
edit: but as more as I think the more I ask myself how is this different then simply deflexed bow along it's entire limbs????
Sime,
I guess the difference in the bent is that the entire limb is working. In simply deflexed bows the ends of the limbs can?t work cause of the physical characteristics of a bent circle.
Additionally the ends of this type of Greek bow are working as a lever, this makes this bow so comfortable to shoot.
I guess also that the angle between the string and the arrow of the fully drawn bow has a "better" impact on the torque than in straight bows.
We?re just checking out the details by doing chrono- tests in comparison to other types of bows with same draw-weights.
Michael
I guess the difference in the bent is that the entire limb is working. In simply deflexed bows the ends of the limbs can?t work cause of the physical characteristics of a bent circle.
Additionally the ends of this type of Greek bow are working as a lever, this makes this bow so comfortable to shoot.
I guess also that the angle between the string and the arrow of the fully drawn bow has a "better" impact on the torque than in straight bows.
We?re just checking out the details by doing chrono- tests in comparison to other types of bows with same draw-weights.
Michael