Mongols

Peter; i'll just give some of my opinions, I was not around then, 1200AD.

One can see several existing Mongol era quivers and they will barely hold a dozen arrows. The arrows make a tool kit of different types, I mean radically different than eachother. Short range, long range, armor piercing, bloodletting. I have seen grenades of the period and they cannot be shot from a bow.

"Tartar" means something like hell so the Mongols who invaded Europe were known as that. Their horses were Mongolian type which are about one third smaller than standard, not crossed with Arabians, as the horses of Turkmenistan look (but aren't).

Mongols also carried a sword and lance for which they are also famous.

I should think that blood was consumed when necessary and would be surprised if any weak animal was not eaten when necessary.

Mongol warriors were not paid as such but earned a share in plunder, were expected to fight if instructed.

You might find "the secret life of the Mongols" or something like that. have not read it but many who have say it is excellent. I like "the Mongol Warlords" by Nicolle, and "Historic India", by Schulburg. Both are easy reading and should be generally accurate. Lots of warrior lore. -j-

Peter,
Your source seems a bit confused.

• The source for the sixty arrow quiver is a misinterpretation of a European report of the Mongols where two quivers of thirty arrows each were mentioned. One quiver was full of arrows for close work and and the was for distance shooting.
  I think Jack was referring to the "SECRET HISTORY OF THE MONGOLS". There are several good translations in English. Cleaves is more formal and de Rachewiltz is more complete (two volumes).
  The Mongols had little access to Arab horses until they reached the middle east. The current Mongol ponies are descendants of at least one of the breeds in Mongolia at the time. From archaeological evidence, there is no doubt there were larger horses, though none of the size later bred in Europe.
  Jack is correct in that the European name "Tartars" is equated with Tartarus meaning Hell. However, the name was a misinterpretation of the tribal name "Tatar", which referred to a group wiped out by Chinggis Qan before he started to move west. The Mongols were saddled by this name in the same way as the Greeks nearly always referred to the Persians as Medes.
  The quivers that Jack refers to may have been hunting or court quivers. They usually have a small number arrows with various heads. Actual war quivers have not been found yet.
  Up until the studies of the Mary Rose longbows, it was generally believed that longbows were not much heavier than ninety pounds. That changed after the testing and building of replicas. Your source is out of date. The Mongols and other peoples with the right technology could build very strong bows.
  Morgan's "THE MONGOLS" is a good introduction to Mongol history. Nearly all books where they describe Mongol technologies are rapidly going out of date because of new discoveries.

thanks everyone, my source of "the devils's horsemen" by james chambers was published in 1979 so it is out of date. I think I will look into buying the books you guys have mentioned and see what I can find, Out of date info is why im kind of apprehensive about using articles online about the mongols because I read acticles about different things I know much more about and the articles are usually terrible.

Carpini's "The Mongols Whom We Call Tartars" contains the observations made during his journey to the court of Guyug, including descriptions of Mongol arms and armour.
Buell's "The Historical Dictionary of the Mongol World Empire" contains a lot of information either ignored or overlooked by other authors.
Michal Biran's "Qaidu and the Rise of the Independent Mongol State in Central Asia" is an in depth study of the events in Central Asia, shedding much light on fractured state of the Mongol Empire, a wealth of information.
The term Tatar seems also to have been applied, by the Mongols, to conquered tribes and was readily taken up by the 'Golden Horde', whose armies contained far more Qipchaqs than Mongols. The Mongol bow and its performance has also been blown out of all proportion, it was highly disciplined military and some astounding generals that was the true strength of Mongol armies of that time (mid 13th C ) The Mamluks took this one step further and schooled slaves (many of them Qipchaqs sold by the Mongols) into highly disciplined armies.
I am also sure that, given the extent of the Empire, horses such as the Central Asian Akhal Teke, an animal of around 15.2HH, would have been found among Mongol herds.

I can also advise "Genghis Khan.Conqueror of the World" by Leo de Hartog. You can find there lots of facts about everyday life of the Mongols and it is easy to read.

In reference to Tatars, large groups settled here in Poland as my family :)

Best
Janek

Quick Reference on Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars

I do not have a copy of the book (it went out of print while I was in the US), but the Kipcaq DID have access to Arab-lined horses. At least one was buried with a Cuman/Polovetsi prince at Csinggele.

[quote="Bede"]Peter,
Your source seems a bit confused.

• The source for the sixty arrow quiver is a misinterpretation of a European report of the Mongols where two quivers of thirty arrows each were mentioned. One quiver was full of arrows for close work and and the was for distance shooting.
  
  
  What do you mean by and and was for distance shooting?

First at all- name- "Mongols" is fiction name, like in 18 cen. "Americans"- in America (from name Amerigo Vespucci) live this days people from Britain, France , Irish, German, Polland , ... etc. Same is Mongols - this is group of many tribes, most of him are erliers Huns. Genghis army was like snow ball . In every teritory who was conquer , he packing or"gluing" in this snow ball more and more wariors from new tribes . Its like Babylon army. But very strictly strong sistem in army keeping whole all this ball. From historical sources only 20 % (maybe less) wariors from all mongol army was from Genghis teritory. Same variation must be vith horses, bows, arows, what ever you mean...
I mean that Russian and Chinese Historicians and archeologists was best experts in this thema- there is sources.

The close shooting and distant shooting were defined as close combat heavy arrows and lighter arrows for shooting at people at a distance. Unfortunately they did not define the type of heads or the sizes of the shafts. Like a lot of old sources, they were writing for people who knew already what they were talking about.

Do you want me to find you the whole quote and put it here?

Regarding the Mongols, it was a tribal designation for a group of clans that appeared in the 9th-11th centuries. There are Chinese references to a similar name (but Chinese transcriptions of foreign names are not very precise) from earlier times, but whether they are related is a bit hard to determine.

The British Empire was the empire ruled by the British and the Mongol Empire was the empire ruled by the Mongols. No one would say that everyone in the British army of the period was an Englishman nor does that apply to the Mongol army of the imperial period. As far as I can tell the one made up name in this area was "Manchu" which was created by Nurhaci to identify the Jurchen tribes he was forming a new nation from.

At the time of the foundation of the empire by Chinggis Khan, There were several tribal groupings in the area of modern Mongolia: the Naimans, the Merkit, the Kerait, the Mongols and the Tatars. There were smaller groupings like the Uriangkhai and others. Some spoke Mongolian and some spoke Turkish languages (like the Kerait).

There had been a lot of ethnic and linguistic changes since the time of the Xiongnu, who had only been the ruling tribe of a confederation as well. It can be confusing if you mix up linguistic groups with ethnic groups since they can overlap.

One could get into a lengthy discussion; but I'll make a couple of points.

There's no evidence that the Mongols used thumbrings. Certainly not stone ones. It is also unlikely that they used bows with massive draw-weights except for training on the ground.

The imperial period Mongolian armies were made made up numerically of a majority of non-Mongols who may have shot every-which way.

The horses they rode were almost certainly not Mongolian steppe ponies, which were highly unsatisfactory for military work. They probably rode Ferghana/Mongolian cross-bred horses for size and speed.

They used closed quivers which don't seem to have the capacity to hold more than a dozen arrows. They mixed the arrow-types within the quivers.

All massive war attacs in european agrycoultural tribes was from the same teritory in east asia .From the same hunters and wariors tribes tru the step highway. Skitas, Celts , Avars, Huns, Mongols- this is only biggest name of many more litle or bigger tribes. Our archeologist in Slovakia found big wall from earth stons and woods cross all Slovakia north -south directory - about 350-400 km long . Same solution , like China.

Stephen,
There are references in the Secret History of the Mongols to the thumb draw. I agree that there are unlikely to be locally made stone thumb rings. Leather and horn are more likely materials. All Middle Eastern and Chinese depictions of the Mongols in the imperial period show the thumb draw.

Undoubtedly there were some tribal groups that did not use the thumb ring, but most of them were to the north west of Mongolia. Evidentally, there was a conversion among some of the Turkish tribes on the Russian steppes from a finger based draw to a thumb based one around the time of the Mongol conquest. Even so, the number of stone or metal thumb rings in tombs in very small.

The closed quiver is the most likely domesticly used quiver for hunting, but there is a definite change to open quivers based on the Persian miniatures and contemporary Chinese paintings. There were clearly different types of closed quiver with different capacities and purposes. Most of the surviving ones seem to have had hunting arrows (often with broadheads and whistles). This tendency goes back to early Turkish times. There are some fourteenth century miniatures showing narrow closed quivers used by heavily armoured cavalry. Probably they were not involved in large scale archery attacks.

The Mongols regularly recruited warriors from conquered tribes and after they took settled areas like North China, they employed specialist technicians to built siege engines and other military necessities. The composition of the Mongol armies varied from place to place. In Batu's ordu (the Golden Horde in Western literature), the majority of the army was composed of Kipchak warriors with a few Mongol tumens and mongol senior officers.

The strength of the bows is difficult to determine, but the one Mongol flight record (the Yissungge stone) we have suggests powerful and efficent bows.

There is also reference in The Secret History of the Mongols regarding thumb draw during the argument between Jochi and Chagadai. Jochi remarks that he will cut off his thumb if Chagadai was more proficient than he was with the bow.

I agree the Mongols used a thumb draw. It was thumbrings that I said they didn't use (to my knowledge).

S

The lack of metal or bone thumb rings in archaeological context in Mongolia proper has always been a problem. However, the survival rate and the accurate identification of thumb rings have always been low in archaeology.

Middle Eastern paintings of Mongol troops attacking Baghdad clearly show thumb rings. Most of the equipment is accurately observed (closed quivers, lamellar armour etc.). While it could be argued that they acquired thumb rings in Iraq or that the artists were representing Mongol troops through a local mental filter (i.e. they had seen local Turkish archers using thumb rings or that it was part of the artistic canon), the simplest explanation is that the Mongols were seen using thumb rings. The painting was painted within in a century of the events being represent and before the first thumb ring to be found in a Mongol grave in Russia. Mongol equipment was still relatively consistent with the early period. In fact, despite the the excavate thumb rings in the Middle East before the Mongol invasion, representations of them are rare though they are described in archery literature. It is during the Ilkhanid period that they start to appear in paintings.

Stephen Selby wrote:

One could get into a lengthy discussion; but I'll make a couple of points.

There's no evidence that the Mongols used thumbrings. Certainly not stone ones. It is also unlikely that they used bows with massive draw-weights except for training on the ground.

The imperial period Mongolian armies were made made up numerically of a majority of non-Mongols who may have shot every-which way.

The horses they rode were almost certainly not Mongolian steppe ponies, which were highly unsatisfactory for military work. They probably rode Ferghana/Mongolian cross-bred horses for size and speed.

They used closed quivers which don't seem to have the capacity to hold more than a dozen arrows. They mixed the arrow-types within the quivers.

So they only had 12 arrows? Also, what did they use instead of thumb rings???

It's not really necessary to use a thumbring. It certainly helps in terms of increasing the smoothness of release; but on horseback, it's just one more thing to get in the way of rapid nocking and shooting. If you're afraid of pain when you draw a heavier bow, then you just add some soft leather serving below the nocking point on the string.

Stephen,
I really think that increasing the thickness of the string at the nocking point is a modern and inefficient method of using the thumb release. Leather thumb rings are attested to in the literature and are still used in Mongolia today. Padding the string is a good practice technique and attested to in Turkish literature.

I gave one to a Mongolian archer in Korea last year and he commented on the ease of shooting with them compared to a horn ring that didn't fit too well.

In answer to the other question about the numer of arrows. Most surviving closed quivers seem to be hunting quivers, judging by the types of arrow heads found in them. However, there is enough artistic, literary and archaeological information to suggest larger ones were quite common. Perhaps users of closed quivers preferred to hunt in the afterlife rather than fight.

Beatiful mongol horse full war armoured- Russian "Kulikovo pole " museum-maybe reconstruction

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mongol warior

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archeological original from Uzbek muzeum

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Dusan, these compositions are modern replicas

This is visible , but looks good :lol: and historical right-

Beg your pardon. Speaking about these armor spicemen in a right way we should use words as "a version of reconstruction"!

Yes, It looks very good. But I'm not sure that all the details are "historical right" in full meaning.

The helmet's isn't right. Should be 8 steel leaves and 'garlic head shaped'. I have an original one here, authenticated by Prof. Yang Hong.

S

The lamellar armour is an imaginary pattern reconstructed on the basis of some Osprey books' interpretations. Admittedly, these are very good reconstructions, but there is a lot of imagination used in their details.

Sometimes it is imagined that the Tibetan lamellar armours are made in the Mongolian style, but the Tibetan ones are so sophisticated that they appear similar to many other types because they incorporate many scale types into the one piece of armour.

In addition, from archaeology and art it is clear that there were many sorts of lamellar armour in use at the same time and there was a progression of styles of construction over a period of about 150 years in Mongol ruled areas. Prof. Yang Hong's book on Chinese weapons has a list from the Song Dynasty of many types of armour with special uses and the number of scales varied considerably.

Stephen,
Would you like to show us a picture of your helmet?

Stephen , like we talked about mongols arme some time ago , this arme was from many diferent tribes, horses, weapons ...and lamellar armour. Why not ? I thing the russians scientist have moore than other archeological experiences and facts from this tipe reconstruction. From other side ,who can say what is the "right " helmet for all mongolian army (?) or right sistem ? If anybody have this complicated and not a cheep armour he must be a nobility man.

Stephen , like we talked about mongols army some time ago , this army was from many different tribes, horses, weapons ...and lamellar armour. Why not ?

You have a good point. I agree that armour like this might have been used by some army in east Europe or Asia during the 11th Century.

But then what shall we discuss here? Whether the photograph shows Turkish mercenary armour? Or whether it's Togbut or Xixia armour?

I dont know . Here we dicsus about Xixia or Togbut ? I thing we discus about Temudjin army or Golden Horde army.this armour is -like said in Kulikovo P.Muz. -reconstruction of russians findings from Golden Horde era. But sorry, :lol: i am not expert.

Dusan,
I don't believe this reconstruction is based on Russian research. I recognise the style of construction from Western publications. Gorelik is the Russian expert on armour of this period. He has published in Russian and English.

I know Gorelik. I know his work. His drawing reconstruction looks close this armour... I found many of his pics. I am not this person who can be judg in this question . I only believe profesionals in muzeum - specializing in mongols and Golden Horde.Thats all. I only "hunting" pics from Russian sites - discusion about amour is your job , boys. :lol: I wil be happy ,if you say me somthing new about it . Go on.

I find this reconstruction to be believable. Images of helmets from Kazakhstan. The Mongols invaded them at least twice, hundreds of years apart.

Ermitage expozition- The great Mongol State or Golden Horde, excavated in the village of Nikolaevskoe-Orel Region

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Helm vith a half mask/irongilding

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interesting comparison vith helm Alexander the Great period from the same muzeum

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The middle helmet looks in the Russian style. It make have been booty or craftsmen from the Horde coudl have copied it since the bowl is made in an interesting shape.

Bede , you mean Jacks post ? Because all 3 pics in mi post is the same helmet -only from other sides.4 helm is from Alexanders time for comparison.

I read in russians profesinal archeologist and historicians articles, that its very big problem selected what is tipical from Mongols (hordes) or Rusian warriors armour detailes, because in Mongols (hordes) arme worked and fighting many Russians warriors , slaves, craftsmans etc. Novadays little changing historical mind about strongli border line between russians and mongols(hordes) arme and political interestings . Discovering many historical facts, that some russians aristocracy wery close cooperation vith mongols army, and use this army in his personal war between Rusians aristocracyans from power in Russia. Some aristocracians in historical books have no russian tittle "kniaz" but KAGAN or CHAN...

Mongolians are Xianbei ethnic offspring. After the Tang Dynasty, Mongolia ministries moved to the Mongolian Plateau. 10 century to the 12th century, the Mongolian Plateau has succumb to the Liao and Jin. To about 1200, with the gradual decline of Jin and Mongolian forces gradually strong, Mongolia is no longer tribute to Jin.
In 1206, Kublai's unification of Mongolian ministries, in turn difficult to River (this onon River) to convene the General Assembly at its source, that is, Mongolia profusely, and its "Genghis Khan", the country's "Great Mongolia."
Starting in 1205, Genghis Khan attacked three Xixia. 1211 Mongolia Jin cavalry attack and occupation of both. In 1218, Mongol armies destroyed西辽regime. Offspring set up here at窝阔台Khanate.
From 1219 to 1222, Genghis Khan offensive花剌子模(now Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan area), Capture a number of major cities. La Flower submodule Mahabharata rulers fled to the Caspian Sea at the end of Su-Dan Gudao died. Genghis Khan in 1223 not to send speed Units continue to the west, Ukraine is to overcome at the Grand Duchy of Kiev, after the withdrawal. Genghis Khan once again in 1226 Xixia levy the following year The Last King of Western Xia surrender.
1227 Genghis Khan died at the Helan Mountains. At that time, the Mongol Empire, including the Mongolian Plateau, Northwest China, Northeast China, and part of North China, and Central Asia, West Asia most. Chagatai Khanate after the set up here.

Wokuotai Khanate (1225-1309): this is located in Xinjiang, the Central Asian area. Most of Kublai Khan moved the capital (now Beijing), the support of alibug erefuse Wokuotai Khanate Khan Weaklyand independent. Was the third son of Genghis KhanWokuotai the fief, as holders of Irtysh upstream and east of Lake Balkhash area, leaf density in Metro City (now Xinjiang emin). In 1229, that is profuselyWokuotaiposition, will give his eldest son fief by You. In 1246, inherited by the sweat of expensive, but died after two years. By the sweat of WokuotaiDepartment to the Department ofTuolei. In 1251, the newly appointed Department of sweat MungoWokuotaiKings of repression, with the exception of death, disgrace to move part of the Princes, the land will be sub-delegatedWokuotaiKhanate descendants of Kings and the weak of their potential. Kublai Khan, after the succession, a commitment to Chinese policies, caused by entropyWokuotaiSun Kings are led by the public discontent. The sea has on several occasions have raised an army for the chaos, repeated Shengyuan Army, a major threat to the Yuan Dynasty. 1301, sea and are more than 40 kings together rebel soldiers invaded the Yuan Dynasty, people wishing to replace them, but at Kamal and Lin Yuan-jun by the defeat, and soon perish sea sick. In 1310, the son eight visits by children for the Chagatai Khanate defeats khanatesWokuotaideath.
Chagatai Khanate (1227 -1369 years): this is located in Xinjiang, the Central Asian area. By Kublai Khan,Alibugeforces such as competition for time and again. This was the second son of Genghis Khan Chagatai's fief, the early holders of the oldliao, including the North and the South Tianshan and Amu Darya, Syr Darya between land, capital of Ali Mari (now Xinjiang Huocheng). In 1310 and merged most of the Wokuotai Khanate Territory
, Tatsu and powerful country in the heyday of its territory from Turpan East, West and the Amu Darya, north to tarbagatay Taishan, Nanda Hindu Kush mountain. Mongolian military aristocracy with the local Turkic nomadic aristocracy together constitute the ruling class, spare no effort in maintaining the feudal system of nomadic patriarchal relations. Turkic Mongols relatively common phenomenon. The mid-14th century, khanates divided into East and West 2. East Chagatai Khanate Khanate licensed Wokuotai old and sparse western Xinjiang attached for all, after further division, the 16th century have been re-incorporated into the Chinese. West Chagatai Khanate holders of the river, so as to Samarkand as the capital in 1370 by Timur seizing.
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Since the mid-14th century founding to 100 years, the Golden Horde State are potential time heyday. Mongolia steppe aristocracy gradually andQinchaaristocratic nomadic tribes merge, change turkic fuck, to comply with Islam, with the adjacent khanates fight abuse in Iraq and other places of Azerbaijan, often do not tame a crusade to force the Russian nobility. In 1341, Uzbek Khan's death, domestic conflicts, internal strife about. In particular, are growing stronger and stronger in the Principality of Moscow and Central Asia, the emerging anti timur Empire, the country increasingly fading potential. The 15th century, the Golden Horde split into Kazan, the Crimea, Astrakhan, Siberia Khanate, etc..
Iraq abuse Khanate (1256 ~ 1388): located in the Caucasus, Iran, Iraq and other places, in order to旭烈兀created. For the three sub-Tuoleiexpedition旭烈兀khanates built in West Asia. In 1264, Kublai Khan officially canonized profusely for the Iraqi children旭烈兀Khan. Their country from阿姆尔East River, west to the Mediterranean, the North arrived in the Caucasus, the south Indian Ocean, the capital of Tabriz.
Iraq abuse pre-Khanate, Khan because of the various expeditions frequently, people living in dire poverty, Mongolia and the United Turkic aristocratic dictatorship, stick backward nomadic mode of production, farmers and settlers of the town pressed the purposes of policy, with the result that the national economy is sluggish and society is sparsely populated, barren land, people continued to resist , social order turbulence restless.
1295, Taiwan's Chan-Khan succession, in order to save a critical situation. Easing social conflicts, to abandon the traditional policy, the full implementation of the Islamic-oriented reforms in order to win the support of many Muslim aristocracy, and consolidate the rule of the feudal order. Rate of the armed forces him to abandon the original religious beliefs, to comply with Islam, and as the state religion; vigorously promote Arab conventional militaryTerritorysystem, will be strictly peasant fixation on at land to the licensed serviceTerritorywho pay rents; the abolition of tax system, under the provisions of tax rates, severely punish those who over-levy; unified currency and weights and measures to develop industrial and commercial tax; encourage the cultivation, build roads, reduction of post-chuan, and approved the amount of soldiers, the prohibition of corruption; incentives cultural, academic advocacy. Thus the early 14th century, the Iraqi children khanates greater socio-economic recovery, feudal rule was strengthened, and the Islamic culture there is a considerable development. All praise Khan at the palace, the aggregation of many writers and scholars. His prime ministerConfidantpull Streichert sorrow edited by Kenneth historical masterpiece "history collection" Communication has to stay.
In 1304, with the death of Chan-Khan. Shortly thereafter, the situation in Iraq abuse Khan at home and abroad has become increasingly serious. Inside there is an indisputable Kings lap,Power allocationpower struggle, infighting after another; outside Egypt have wooden horse Luke dynasty and constantlyQinchakhanates invaders, Guoyun Day Organization, in a split. In 1388, eventually emerging Timurid Empire in Central Asia are out.

Mongolian warrior sculpture

Experience tells us that a lot of the conquered country will retain the traces of the conquerors, the experience of a friend be able to explain the above response to the queries raised.
This is the early period of Ming Dynasty Chinese armor. Prior to this Chinese was once ruled by the Mongolian conqueror 80 years, so the early Ming dynasty style and Mongolian armor armor surprisingly similar

Chiron,
Are you sure these are early period Ming paintings? The armour has more resemblance to the Qing armour (it has the base armour as a sleeveless jacket with a lower part with two thigh pieces) than to the Mongol which often had the body and the thigh pieces in one piece like Song armour and Jin armour.

Later period Ming depictions of armour look much more like the Qing ones as does your painting. Sometimes paintings of historical events earlier in the dynasty are labelled as if they were done at the same time, when in reality they were painted in a different century. This happens in Western art a lot too.

Bede：
This is a Chinese painting, "a police map" of the draw are the Chinese Ming Dynasty emperor eleventh term Jiajing emperor (1521 - 1566) tour of inspection of the scene, this time in the late Ming Dynasty, you can see the map samurai armor are what kind of style.

Qing Dynasty armor are Potaninia A, regardless of style or the protective principle has made great improvements, it is an external multi-Chien-Hou dense cotton or silk internal mosaic iron sheets and copper fixed on the cold steel and firearms have good protection role. Mian A principle similar to the existing protective Kevlar, and has a certain role in cold, very suitable to use the Manchu cavalry infantry north. Compared to the Ming dynasty armor, the armor of the Qing Dynasty is a revolution.
Chiron

Chiron,
Thanks. I thought it was around that date or maybe a bit later.

Bede:
Be able to transcend national boundaries and oceans, on matters of mutual interest to discuss the problem with you is my pleasure.
Chiron

Bede wrote:

The Mongols had little access to Arab horses until they reached the middle east. The current Mongol ponies are descendants of at least one of the breeds in Mongolia at the time.

As far as I know, the modern Mongolian breeds are not ponies, but horses.
Alam ed Din

Modern Mongol steppe horses are ponies, in that they measure <=145 cm at the withers. The modern breed is not the horse that the Mongols went to war on: they were quite a lot bigger (160cm or more).

S

I disagree, Bede. Despite their small size, they are horses, not ponies. They lack certain other traits that are commonly associated with ponies.Maybe in Australia just any small horse within a certain body height is called a pony? I hope you are doing well, Bede, greetings and all the best,

An animal under 14.5 HH is classified as a pony.

Adnan,
In English usage and for competition, pony is a technical term for a horse fourteen hands or under in height at the withers (140 cm). It does not refer necessarily to the breed of horse.

Small steppe horses are attested from the excavations of the frozen tombs of Pazyryk where they appear to have used for drawing wagons. There was a taller horse type in the same burials used for riding (they had their saddles in place).

It is likely that after 1,500 years of breeding both types would be more refined.

Everytime someone is calling my pinto- mere a pony I feel somehow offended. But with her 137cm height she is a pony, 140cm is the term for to call a horse a pony.
Anyway I feel like riding the best horse ever.
If you study history or talk with real horse experts they will tell you that ponies are much stronger, cleverer, agile, healthier.............
..........the Mongols or Native Americans knew very well what they were doing.

Michael

For me these are 'horses' incl. pintos, arabs, mustangs, nez perce's, appaloosas, mongol horses, sometimes English terminology sounds like....I don't know.... [They called brown people "boys" not long ago and it was completely normal to them]. Will you forgive me if I keep calling them horses?

The term pony is erroneously used to differentiate small equines from larger ones. It is nothing more than a term of convenience for the horse trade.
In actual genetic terms that is entirely incorrect. A horse and pony in their natural state would be as different as a Wolf and a Coyote.
There are actually miniature horses which have been bred down to miniscule size that are still derived from horses rather than ponies. They are still horses despite not being tall enough.
There is quite a radical difference in body structure in the two animals and those features are just as prominent in a "giant" pony that happens to be tall enough to qualify as a horse or a dwarfed horse that still actually has horse features.
In their natural wild state the two types would have been extremely reluctant to interbreed even if they existed in a mixed zone.
You can still see this if you introduce a number of of pure ponies into a field containing horses. They tend to try to keep to themselves.
The Mongols rode horses despite their mounts being on the small side.