New to Asian archery, where to start?
Hello. I found this site after searching the internet for information on the Asiatic archery traditions, and I have an interest in learning the use of these weapons. I am a lifelong longbow shooter, and I am wondering if anyone can suggest a good value in a bow that would be suitable for a beginner? Not looking for a cheapie, but certainly not the highest end bow either, obviously.
Thanks in advance,
David
Thanks in advance,
David
Welcome! Great to have you aboard.
There are lots of bow models to chose from. As a longbowman, I suggest that you go for a larger bow (e.g. Chinese, Mongolian or Hun) that you can feel 'inside of', rather than some of the smaller ones (e.g. Turkish, Korean).
Secondly, while you are learning, draw below your weight. Chose your fist Asiatic bow at around 10 pounds below your longbow draw weight. It's a different technique and different muscles. Use good stiff 32" aluminium arrows with a decent weight.
For durability and a wide range at moderate price, I still think Grozer offers the best range. But Kassai, and others are also good quality. Kassai does a number of good, large bows.
S
There are lots of bow models to chose from. As a longbowman, I suggest that you go for a larger bow (e.g. Chinese, Mongolian or Hun) that you can feel 'inside of', rather than some of the smaller ones (e.g. Turkish, Korean).
Secondly, while you are learning, draw below your weight. Chose your fist Asiatic bow at around 10 pounds below your longbow draw weight. It's a different technique and different muscles. Use good stiff 32" aluminium arrows with a decent weight.
For durability and a wide range at moderate price, I still think Grozer offers the best range. But Kassai, and others are also good quality. Kassai does a number of good, large bows.
S
Thanks Stephen,
I have looked at some of the bows from those sources. Also, I would like to avoid aluminum. I absolutely detest those things, and won't allow them on my property, let alone in my quiver. :evil: I'm skilled at making my own arrows and shafting, so I think I could come up with some good wood arrows :)
I have looked at some of the bows from those sources. Also, I would like to avoid aluminum. I absolutely detest those things, and won't allow them on my property, let alone in my quiver. :evil: I'm skilled at making my own arrows and shafting, so I think I could come up with some good wood arrows :)
BTW, does Grozer have a U.S. distributer?
A man after my own heart, glad I am not the only one.David_Hurst wrote:
I absolutely detest those things, and won't allow them on my property, let alone in my quiver.
You do not mention your intended style, will you be using thumbdraw or Mediterranean and what is your draw length? Some of Grozers bows stack at longer draw lengths and for some unknown reason he has changed the design of a lot of his base models, some of them are really ugly. Kassai's Hunnic models especially, offer a decent draw length and are very stable.
This site www.hunarchery.com offers a large range from various bowyers. I believe www.horsebows.com is an American distributer but the price mark-up is fairly big.
I would like to learning the shooting with a thumb ring, as it is what these bows are designed for. I don't know what my draw is with a ring, but my draw using a Mediterranean hold/loose is 29 1/2". I gather that my draw with a ring would be some 2" or so longer, give or take? I typically shoot bows from 75 to 90#, so to start with the new technique a bow of 60# would be a good choice, am I correct?
These are my experiences with transition from one style to the other, maybe they could be useful:
1. For testing what weight would work for you, take one of your current bows, put a thick piece of leather (or whatever, really) around the string and pull back a few times, take break, pull back a few more, etc, just to test how your muscles feel after a while. Do your estimate based on that.
2. When you then eventually have your bow, you can use the Turkish style of thumb-realease (some examples of this has graciously been provided by members of this forum on YouTube) which is shorter than the Mongolian, Korean, etc. In fact, the first couple of shots could even be pulled really short, about up to the shoulder of your bowarm just to see and feel the reaction of the arrows. Again, this - the Turkish draw - is to make your arm and hand more used to this type of draw, and you will probably not need to use it for more than a couple of hundred arrows before you get comfortable. NOTE: The longer you've used finger-release, the longer the shift takes, I assume. Or it's just me.
3. Proceed to a longer draw.
1. For testing what weight would work for you, take one of your current bows, put a thick piece of leather (or whatever, really) around the string and pull back a few times, take break, pull back a few more, etc, just to test how your muscles feel after a while. Do your estimate based on that.
2. When you then eventually have your bow, you can use the Turkish style of thumb-realease (some examples of this has graciously been provided by members of this forum on YouTube) which is shorter than the Mongolian, Korean, etc. In fact, the first couple of shots could even be pulled really short, about up to the shoulder of your bowarm just to see and feel the reaction of the arrows. Again, this - the Turkish draw - is to make your arm and hand more used to this type of draw, and you will probably not need to use it for more than a couple of hundred arrows before you get comfortable. NOTE: The longer you've used finger-release, the longer the shift takes, I assume. Or it's just me.
3. Proceed to a longer draw.
Robno, thanks for your advice!
Well the use of thumb rings is a moot point with some of these bows, there is no recorded evidence that Huns used them, for example. The Sassanid draw again, did not feature a thumb ring so there is no rule of thumb (pardon the pun :wink: )David_Hurst wrote:
I would like to learning the shooting with a thumb ring, as it is what these bows are designed for. I don't know what my draw is with a ring, but my draw using a Mediterranean hold/loose is 29 1/2". I gather that my draw with a ring would be some 2" or so longer, give or take? I typically shoot bows from 75 to 90#, so to start with the new technique a bow of 60# would be a good choice, am I correct?
I agree with robno, the transition may take some time.
Interesting. I was under the impression that a thumb ring was the norm with such bows. Shows what I know :?
Which leads me to my next question. What traditions definitely used the thumb ring?
Thumb rings were known in Shang dynasty China in the second millenium BCE. However, even in China, due to the diversity of cultures, other techniques were used. There is strong textual evidence that the Turks used the thumb ring and brought it west, possibly as early as the time of the Avars. Some Turkish groups did not adopt the rings though until much later. Muslim writers and Byzantine writers both wrote about thumb ring use. In the Islamic world it became the general technique. The Byzantines had an either/or attitude to its use.
Separately in the early centuries of this era a group of people developed thumb rings in Nubia and there is an African tradition of release aids that is only becoming known now.
Groups that did not use the thumb ring, but did use the composite bows, include the Scythians, the Hungarians, the early Sassanid Persians, the Xiongnu and Huns. There is still some debate about early Mesopotamian civilisations and ancient Egypt. Aside from the doubtfully dated Dura Europus ring, the main arguments are based on art which are largely not easily judged due to the conventional nature of the medium. You will find several different opinions on this forum.
Separately in the early centuries of this era a group of people developed thumb rings in Nubia and there is an African tradition of release aids that is only becoming known now.
Groups that did not use the thumb ring, but did use the composite bows, include the Scythians, the Hungarians, the early Sassanid Persians, the Xiongnu and Huns. There is still some debate about early Mesopotamian civilisations and ancient Egypt. Aside from the doubtfully dated Dura Europus ring, the main arguments are based on art which are largely not easily judged due to the conventional nature of the medium. You will find several different opinions on this forum.
As I don't want to make an advertisement for a site whose reputation I cannot verify, I will only say that if you search for combination of "rome" and "thumb ring" you find a site where they sell ancient Roman thumb rings.
Can the Roman usage be verified? If so, from what century? Where was the inspiration from?
Can the Roman usage be verified? If so, from what century? Where was the inspiration from?
Just so there's no misunderstanding, it's perfectly ok to do a thumb draw without a ring, just as you can do a 'Mediterranean draw' without a finger tab if you want. So discussion of 'not using a thumbring' doesn't mean the same a 'not using the thumb to draw'.
S
S
Precisely. There is always the possibility that thumb rings were in use in the cultures we have ommitted. Lack of findings need not necessarily point to a different technique, though I am sceptical about this theory.It seems far more likely they used a different method to draw. To the best of my knowledge, the earliest findings in and around eastern Europe are dated to circa 7th C, which would suggest the Avars.
I remember reading about Roman findings at out posts in Britain which would be 5th C at the latest but I am not convinced.
As an aside, the argument that thumb rings are 'release aids' still goes on in archery circles here in the UK. Thumb ring = release aid = archer must enter compound unlimited class....it's totally nuts.
I remember reading about Roman findings at out posts in Britain which would be 5th C at the latest but I am not convinced.
As an aside, the argument that thumb rings are 'release aids' still goes on in archery circles here in the UK. Thumb ring = release aid = archer must enter compound unlimited class....it's totally nuts.
Well, that clears everything up! :lol:
No, I would not think that a thumb ring would be any more a release aid than a tab or glove. It is still the hand and the digit/s that are directly contacting the string and controlling the release. I do want to learn to use the ring/thumb release, but I would want to do so with a bow that is historically appropriate to the technique. If it is, perhaps, a shorter bow that can be difficult to master, so be it. "Difficult" does not mean impossible...it just means having a good focus and dedication to putting the work in.
All very interesting, thanks folks for the information!
No, I would not think that a thumb ring would be any more a release aid than a tab or glove. It is still the hand and the digit/s that are directly contacting the string and controlling the release. I do want to learn to use the ring/thumb release, but I would want to do so with a bow that is historically appropriate to the technique. If it is, perhaps, a shorter bow that can be difficult to master, so be it. "Difficult" does not mean impossible...it just means having a good focus and dedication to putting the work in.
All very interesting, thanks folks for the information!
Regarding Roman thumb rings, the principle example cited is the partial ring found at Dura Europus, a Roman outpost against the Persians. The archaeological information was recently republished and re-evaluated. Despite the author's suggestion, I feel that there is no strong evidence for the date of the ring nor its association with the Roman levels.
Roman literature has direct references to rings much later during the Byzantine period. The rings found in Britain have usually proved not to be archer's rings at all.
The many rings appearing for sale are at best Byzantine of the later period and in many cases early Turkish from the Balkans. Without preempting a study that is to be published in the near future, I can say that there is some evidence for modern reproductions being sold online.
Stephen is also right, many people shot without a ring or with only a leather tab. These practices did not leave archaeological traces. Both practices are mentioned in the contemporary literature.
While there are definite advantages to using a thumb ring with a shorter bow, many large bows were used with the thumb release. Short bows themselves have more advantages from their portability than anything else. Many longer bows were used by horse archers as well.
Roman literature has direct references to rings much later during the Byzantine period. The rings found in Britain have usually proved not to be archer's rings at all.
The many rings appearing for sale are at best Byzantine of the later period and in many cases early Turkish from the Balkans. Without preempting a study that is to be published in the near future, I can say that there is some evidence for modern reproductions being sold online.
Stephen is also right, many people shot without a ring or with only a leather tab. These practices did not leave archaeological traces. Both practices are mentioned in the contemporary literature.
While there are definite advantages to using a thumb ring with a shorter bow, many large bows were used with the thumb release. Short bows themselves have more advantages from their portability than anything else. Many longer bows were used by horse archers as well.
Another thing: a number of modern thumb-draw cultures don't wear a thumbring; but they do build up the string below the nocking point so that discomfort from cutting by the string is minimized.
That leads to an additional piece of advice when learning thumb draw: your serving at the nocking point will be bulkier than you may have been using with a three-finger draw. A thicker string gives a smoother release than a thin string (with or withour a thumbring), which offsets any slowing of the bow caused by the (minimal) additional weight of the serving.
S
That leads to an additional piece of advice when learning thumb draw: your serving at the nocking point will be bulkier than you may have been using with a three-finger draw. A thicker string gives a smoother release than a thin string (with or withour a thumbring), which offsets any slowing of the bow caused by the (minimal) additional weight of the serving.
S
Lots of good information in this thread. Thanks!
I only wish that I could shoot before buying, but that's the way it goes I guess.
I only wish that I could shoot before buying, but that's the way it goes I guess.
I've got these fiberglass Chinese-style take-down bows that we've been developing in Beijing. They're around 35# and cost US$150. Because they're take-down and light they're dead cheap to ship. Not the acme of archery technology, but a cheap way to dip your toe in the water.
Send me a PM if interested (you or anyone else.)
S
Send me a PM if interested (you or anyone else.)
S
What's the possible range of draw weights for these low-cost fiberglass bows?
We make them like the old Ford cars. You can have any weight you like as long as it's 35#.Hyarmendacil wrote:
What's the possible range of draw weights for these low-cost fiberglass bows?
Two reasons: one is that they are for learning and we don't want people learning Asian archery on heavy bows because they always develop a bad technique that way. Second, these are a new design and we are not confident about how the take-down structure (no screws: just slotted) would stand up to heavy draw-weights.
S