new method for speed shooting during HA

The suspense! I'm very curious about your method.

Hi josedom I come back from ECHOA:it was wonderful

I try for the first time my method on horseback :it work and as usual I

have to train with:I put the arrows with the heads up in my bowhand(I

think that indian of america do like that:hey jack Farrell?) then I use

thumb release or modified sassanid release (hey Bede it work well)

josedom you want try with your fine old yumi?

Hi Jak, I think the method you described is similar than Kassai's but you hold the arrows upside-down than him and also he uses the 3 finger draw instead of the mongolian draw.

I think it's impossible to hold arrows on the bow hand using a yumi because of the special Japanese way to hold the bow. They hold one arrow but on the drawing hand, this is for formal shooting. For horse-archery, they use either the traditional ebira or they just put their jindo-ya under the belt of their hakama.

By the way, I always enjoy looking at the pictures of your blog. Those hornbows look amazing, especially that scythian.

no josedom it is not like kassai method(nothing similar) and I dont use 3 fingers
the only "new" of my method is to hold the arrows upside ,after I shoot as usual

video soon

jak wrote:

no josedom it is not like kassai method(nothing similar) and I dont use 3 fingers
the only "new" of my method is to hold the arrows upside ,after I shoot as usual

video soon

So Jak I hope you don't mind that I show pictures of your technique.

http://www.fletchers-corner.de/cpg/disp ... fullsize=1

It's really a fast one, I tried it at EOCHA 2008 and Jak was my instructor.
I only have some problems with my thumb (hand of the bow), because I have to move it to put the arrow on the string.

no problem lancelot

the picture is a little bit take early:after the thumb coil around the string naturally

one of the korean or mongolian team make a video when I shoot 6

arrows:may be he can put in youtube? thank to him in advance

Look forward to seeing that video, 'cos by the looks of it from the pictures and one "dry run" with some arrows in my hand just to have a look my reaction is:
- Seems a greater risk at fumbling the arrows, or the bow, due to need to open the thumb (else there are three movements after all)
- Seems also like you need to hold the arrows in place just a fraction more stiffly so they won't slide down when you draw one of them (since the fletches aren't there to stop them from slipping through the fingers

But that is just a first impression :-)

Ooops robno sorry I dont see your answer:

the method to hold the arrows head up is not really "new" but I think it was

forgotten and I "rediscover" it.

May be many people have used that method but I have no proof but I

have historical proove that french people used that method at least 1000 years ago

so I use that method as the french way for speed shooting.

It is a very old technic in fact

something new under the sun????

Jak,
I always thought it would be safer to have the points held upwards because, if you are hunting with broad heads, you might accidentally stab yourself in the thigh otherwise. Hunters on foot have cut the femoral artery and bled to death before help could be brought.

Shooting on horseback and holding the arrows in the bow hand is ancient. In the old terracotta bas relief of a Parthian archer shooting (in Berlin I think), I could not tell which way up he held the arrows. There was not enough detail.

Clear visible how holding archer in left hand his arrows. Its fresca from Slovakia town Velka Lomnica , 1200-1300 - Legend about Vladislav



[external image]

thank you dusan for the pic:

I often hold 6 arrows in my drawhand like this ,during HA

well you can hold 6 arrows with bowhand and 6 with drawhand and one

ready to shot:so 13 arrows with no problem using thumb-draw method for HA

but now I think that using a quiver is the safer method

holding arrows in the bowhand with points up is also a french method at

least since year 1066 because william the conqueror french army used it when

they invade england at hasting battle:you can see it on "bayeux tapissery"

you can see the picture at http://jakpradere.blogspot.com/

Jak,
I'm glad someone else is thinking about fast tumb reloading. Unfortunately the link to the pics is not working anymore, and I have never seen the video with your reloading.
Just yesterday at the field I discovered a verry quick method of reloading while using thumbring. The interesting thing is that my arrows are with arrowheads up too. So I think it might be actually the same method. Could you please repost pictures and/org video? I'm verry interested.
Unfortunately with my method, there is a problem - you can't hold too many arrows in the bowhand. I believe 4 or 5 is the limit (well, my hands are a bit small, buth nevertheless...) .
Tomorrow, when I'm back on the field I'll make a video and post it the day after tomorrow.

Thanks in advance.

ok my lord

I will put soon a new video: I hold at least 6 arrows in my bowhand

if you go to my blog clik on video link and you can watch the video at ECHOA2009

As I promised, here is what I have come to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5k8DwtON7s
This is one of my first attemts, so speed is rather low.

Looking forward to see your aproach.

Hi

not bad...with training you can go faster
you reload on the upper side of the nock as some hungarian do with thumb release....for me it is faster to reload on the lower side of the nock because arrows are heads down

normally I will do my video this WE

Hi

I put a video on my blog EPONARC showing "my" technic and showing 13 arrows shots without quiver and with thumb release:
6 arrows in bowhand with my technic and 6 arrows in my drawhand with shower technic and one ready to shot

see at post"jak13arrows" in http://jakpradere.blogspot.com/

Verry impressive! Thanks for sharing.
It seems somewhat different than "mine". I see you too have to arrange the arrows in order not to tangle them while reloading.
Isn't the bow unsecure while you move your fingers to make way for the arrow? Especialy while riding ?
The idea to reload on the lower side of the nock is quite interesting and may be faster. I'll try it.

I'll post a detailed slow reloading soon.

Thanks again

Hi lord
of course every body (and all around the world) have to arrange arrows before reloading

I use this technic while riding:you can see on my blog the video" korean and hungarian..during echoa 2009
it is not insecure at all

during "Hasting battle " in 1066 when french normand have invaded england with william the conqueror we can see that french archer(and HA archer) hold the arrows with point up so "my" technic is at least 1000 years old, so it is secure(the french win the battle!!!)

I guess you missunderstood me. In "my" way, the arrow has to open just 3 fingers of the bowhand while reloading, so thumb and forefinger always hold the bow. In your way I see it has to open all 4 fingers and move the thumb. Isn't the bow insecure at that very moment, while you move the arrow to nock it ?
As for the arrangmet of the arrow - in the Kassai way (and I believe in Novotni's way too) for mediteranian draw the arrows are arranged only by heigth (i.e. first drawn arrow - higher, next - a bit lower, etc.). Since you pull them completetly out of your bowhand before nocking them, there's no need to arrange them otherwise - you can't tangle them. As for "my" and your approach, since you only rotate them, while reloading, they must be arranged in order not to tangle with each other. In this way the first arrow must be to extreme right, not crossing the seccond, which is left of the first, but right to the third, not crossing any of them, etc.
That's what I really meant.

Best Regards
Alexander

Lord Ruthven wrote:

what I have come to:

Hi!
It seems that whot you are doing is very similar to the method I'm working on, please take a look:
http://www.lucznictwokonne.pl/traktat/r ... misia.html
(there are only photos at the moment, the site is still under developement. Text is in Polish but the pics should be clear enough, I hope).

As you can find there are 2 differences:
1) I'm keeping the arrows under middle finger only. This allows for a firm grip on the handle of the bow with thumb, ring and small fingers, which I like.
Also, arrows are resting on the knuckle of the ring finger and they are spreading fan-shape 'all by themself', there is no need to arrange them.
It's possible to take 3-4 arrows from a quiver, put them quickly under the middle finger and start shooting immediately, arrows will arrange themself.
You can also, if you have a moment without any targets in sight stop shooting, add some more arrows from the quiver and continue.
(I hoope I made this clear, sorry form my limited english)

2) I'm nocking arrows on the string UNDER the nockpoint.
Here you can find two methods of quick nocking I'm using (with pics and short movies, this part of site is ready):

something I found by myself (and what is called in Poland 'the Bearway' ;-):
http://www.lucznictwokonne.pl/traktat/r ... nie2p.html

and 'historical' method based on 'arab archery/saracen archery' (together with 'chinese' variant Stephen Selby shown me)
http://www.lucznictwokonne.pl/traktat/r ... nie3p.html

Of course keeping arrows under middle finger is limited to about 4 + 1 on the string.
Currently im experimenting with 11+1 version:
4 arrows under small, ring and middle fingers (exactly 'your style')
3 more arrows under ring and middle
4 more under middle
1 nocked on the string
It is possible to do, but I have to work a lot more before I will make my movements fast and sure.
Tucking all these arrows under fingers of course takes a long time, comparing to the first variant.

Best Regards,
Michal

jak wrote:

of course every body (and all around the world) have to arrange arrows before reloading

Dear Jak (hallo! we met during Eocha)

I believe this is not so.
Of course, if a method involve tucking a lot (let say 8, 10 or 12) arrows under different fingers then, YES, certainly you have to arrange them.
But there are difrent ways (or Bearways ;-))

I have 2 methods in which arranging is not necessary.
One I described in a previous post: 3-4 arrows under middle finger.
The only thing you have to do is take 3-4 arrows from the quiver, keeping them under right thumb. You have to get them flat in your hand, NOT in bundle, but one laying next to the other.
This is easy with flat, open-type quiver (and not so easy with tube type).
Then you open the middle finger of your left hand, with right hand place the arrows under it (still laying flat one along the other) and close the finger. Arrows will 'arrange themself' as described before.
It really works - of course if you do not pull the arrows from the quiver correctly, but take them in bundle, then they criss-cross one another and a BIG problem occurs...

The second method is different:
you take a bundle of arrows under middle and ring finger (maximum about 10pcs is possible, depending on the size of hand and diameter of shafts). Then you pull your arrow from the bundle by the nock, in a manner a bit similar to Kassai style.
Of course it's impossible to use broadheads - only target points or similar,
but no arranging of arrows is necessary - you grab several arrows from the quiver and tuck them in your left hand.

Here some photos:
http://www.lucznictwokonne.pl/traktat/r ... iazki.html
This page is also under construction and show only what we call "rubber trick" with bundle of 16-18 arrows tied with a piece of rubber band and special knot.
But you can do the same without band, only with smaller number of arrows (more pictures will be inserted later).

Regards,
Michal

Very interesting, thank you for posting the photo links.
Alan

Urwis, very interesting! Thank you for posting!
I am nocking under the nock point too, but what I use is something in between the Bearway method and the saracene - I'm holding the arrow between my forefinger and middle finger, as in the saracene way, but I'm guiding the arrow on the string with the thumb as in the Bearway.
There is just one problem - one has to be quick but not hasty. Otherwise the thumb may move under the pressure of the string and the nock may miss the string.

Hi urwis

glad to ear from you......thanks for your post

I have try your way to hold arrows :it is very good

to knock the arrow (bearing) we do more or less the same thing

when I hold the arrow between first finger and middle one(as you do) I

continue with sassanid release and not with the thumb

I have some ECHOA pics of you

best jak

Hi again!
I added some more photos on my page, please take a look:

http://www.lucznictwokonne.pl/traktat/r ... misia.html

This is with 10 arrows (3+3+3 in the hand and 1 on the string, not included in the photo)
The 12 arrows version is exactly like this but more difficult for the fingers, with 3+4+4 and 1 on the string.

Best Regards!
Michal