Power generation in forward bow snap in Saracen Archery?
I was re-reading... and am puzzled by the editors' conclusions.
If the forward snap is merely to ingrain a single, predictable habit (which it does well)... why would it need to be forceful? And why would Taybugha claim that it increases the power of the shot?
I have an alternate theory: a compound bow partially has better ballistic properties because the let-off on the string results in the string going through an acceleration phase before it gets to its maximum poundage, whereas a regular bow starts high and immediately drops off. This is the theory here among the bowhunters, at any rate.
Could something like this be in play with the forward snap, with the natural roll of the bow forward? You have a frame of motion occurring with the regular power curve... what happens to that frame if the forward roll is indeed carried out forcefully as Taybugha suggests?
If the forward snap is merely to ingrain a single, predictable habit (which it does well)... why would it need to be forceful? And why would Taybugha claim that it increases the power of the shot?
I have an alternate theory: a compound bow partially has better ballistic properties because the let-off on the string results in the string going through an acceleration phase before it gets to its maximum poundage, whereas a regular bow starts high and immediately drops off. This is the theory here among the bowhunters, at any rate.
Could something like this be in play with the forward snap, with the natural roll of the bow forward? You have a frame of motion occurring with the regular power curve... what happens to that frame if the forward roll is indeed carried out forcefully as Taybugha suggests?
Russ,
The khatrah or follow through is just that.
When you shoot with a thumb ring, you have no positive anchor point and you use the head of the arrow as an indication of full draw like a clicker on a modern bow.
There are several techniques developed to prevent creeping and other faults that occur at full draw. When you grasp the bow in the manner recommended by Taybugha, you put pressure on the grip on the belly side with the flesh between the bases of the thumb and the forefinger at the same time as the tight grip of the little and ring fingers pushes against the back lower down on the grip. This induces the forward rotation of the wrist on release.
Taybugha made several comments that suggests that he was not in favour of extravagant gestures when shooting. That he recommends the khatrah suggests that he thought it has a positive effect, but he does write that it should "appear to give his arrow a push with the string". He also compares it with whipping a horse when it was at full gallop. I think he is saying that this is a technique to prevent an unconscious slacking off of pressure on the bow.
If the timing is wrong, the follow through deflects the arrow or does nothing at all. An early khatrah can deflect the nock of the arrow. A late one is pointless. When I was shooting in front of an experienced archer once, he said I was dropping my hand before the arrow left, which is a bad fault. I had to resort to a video to see if he was right because this all happens so fast you cannot feel anything of what is happening. The arrow had left the string before the hand moved. It looked like the khatrah was just the release of built up compression and tension in the wrist.
So what effect does the khatrah have on the shot? In my experience, it makes the arrow fly with less wagging and more smoothly. Therefore it wastes less energy in straightening out. I feel that shots made with a properly executed khatrah are more accurate as well. I use it in combination with the rearward punch of the elbow, another trick to keep you at full draw right up to release. Does it have a psychological effect? I think so too, but that is harder to quantify.
The khatrah or follow through is just that.
When you shoot with a thumb ring, you have no positive anchor point and you use the head of the arrow as an indication of full draw like a clicker on a modern bow.
There are several techniques developed to prevent creeping and other faults that occur at full draw. When you grasp the bow in the manner recommended by Taybugha, you put pressure on the grip on the belly side with the flesh between the bases of the thumb and the forefinger at the same time as the tight grip of the little and ring fingers pushes against the back lower down on the grip. This induces the forward rotation of the wrist on release.
Taybugha made several comments that suggests that he was not in favour of extravagant gestures when shooting. That he recommends the khatrah suggests that he thought it has a positive effect, but he does write that it should "appear to give his arrow a push with the string". He also compares it with whipping a horse when it was at full gallop. I think he is saying that this is a technique to prevent an unconscious slacking off of pressure on the bow.
If the timing is wrong, the follow through deflects the arrow or does nothing at all. An early khatrah can deflect the nock of the arrow. A late one is pointless. When I was shooting in front of an experienced archer once, he said I was dropping my hand before the arrow left, which is a bad fault. I had to resort to a video to see if he was right because this all happens so fast you cannot feel anything of what is happening. The arrow had left the string before the hand moved. It looked like the khatrah was just the release of built up compression and tension in the wrist.
So what effect does the khatrah have on the shot? In my experience, it makes the arrow fly with less wagging and more smoothly. Therefore it wastes less energy in straightening out. I feel that shots made with a properly executed khatrah are more accurate as well. I use it in combination with the rearward punch of the elbow, another trick to keep you at full draw right up to release. Does it have a psychological effect? I think so too, but that is harder to quantify.
I've had similar results using it as a follow-through: definite increase in accuracy, and more importantly for me, precision. But as a pure follow-through, it never seemed like there was any sensation of increased power or range. (don't have the text with me at the moment)
I don't have anybody trained formally in order to spot my faults, though, so it may be a case of what is obvious to a trained observer mystifying a newbie like m'self.
I don't have anybody trained formally in order to spot my faults, though, so it may be a case of what is obvious to a trained observer mystifying a newbie like m'self.
Russ,
What you have said is always a problem. Having someone tell you what you are really doing compared to what you think you are doing is a real benefit.
I reread the section before I commented. I feel that implies that better performance of the archer makes it look like the bow is shooting better. That is why I included the quote with the word appear in it.
I still make mistakes in technique shooting and some are caused by practising alone. You drift off the right position of a hand or an arm and don't even feel the change until you do it in front of someone else or photograph it.
What you have said is always a problem. Having someone tell you what you are really doing compared to what you think you are doing is a real benefit.
I reread the section before I commented. I feel that implies that better performance of the archer makes it look like the bow is shooting better. That is why I included the quote with the word appear in it.
I still make mistakes in technique shooting and some are caused by practising alone. You drift off the right position of a hand or an arm and don't even feel the change until you do it in front of someone else or photograph it.
I had a chance to watch the 'snap' in practice among a number of experienced Tibetan traditional archers in Qinghai. They were inevitably innaccurate. Maybe the snap increases power when you are shooting at short range and you can compromise on accuracy; but at long range (90 metres) it was fairly disastrous.
Stephen,
Are we talking about the same thing?
If the Tibetan archers were rotating the bow-hand wrist in a downwards motion and the process started before the release was complete, then I woudl expect increased inaccuracy.
If the wrist rotation was the relust of the tension bing released as the arrow left, then it should be more successful. I was doing it at 70 metres on Sunday and I thought it was improving arrow flight and grouping.
Are we talking about the same thing?
If the Tibetan archers were rotating the bow-hand wrist in a downwards motion and the process started before the release was complete, then I woudl expect increased inaccuracy.
If the wrist rotation was the relust of the tension bing released as the arrow left, then it should be more successful. I was doing it at 70 metres on Sunday and I thought it was improving arrow flight and grouping.
Maybe we are taking about two different things.
When I teach students, I just ask them to come to full draw, then count '1-2-3', each time trying to draw back one more millimeter, then release on '4'. The objective is to prevent 'creep'.
'Snap' seems to imply a quick movement. It was written with a strange character in the Tang and Song dynasties. If you say that the word was 'Khatra' in Turkish, then I would wager that the Chinese word 'dzat' in Middle Chinese was a translitteration of that word.
There was another word, 'dzuet' which referred to a raising of the draw-hand wrist at the time of release.
Both of these actions were criticized by some Ming writers.
When I teach students, I just ask them to come to full draw, then count '1-2-3', each time trying to draw back one more millimeter, then release on '4'. The objective is to prevent 'creep'.
'Snap' seems to imply a quick movement. It was written with a strange character in the Tang and Song dynasties. If you say that the word was 'Khatra' in Turkish, then I would wager that the Chinese word 'dzat' in Middle Chinese was a translitteration of that word.
There was another word, 'dzuet' which referred to a raising of the draw-hand wrist at the time of release.
Both of these actions were criticized by some Ming writers.
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When you shoot with a thumb ring, you have no positive anchor point
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Why not? Is there a difficulty in the thumb knuckle touching the ear, jaw, etc?
When you shoot with a thumb ring, you have no positive anchor point
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Why not? Is there a difficulty in the thumb knuckle touching the ear, jaw, etc?
Stephen,
I am not sure that the description of the Khatrah actually mentions a snap at all. It is simply a rotation of the bow-hand wrist. There is a thing called a snatched release, which involves drawing the last handsbreadth of the arrow extremely rapidly. This was considered very difficult and the sign of an expert.
MJuingong,
The anchor referred to in western archery is much more positive than the touching of the earlobe with the thumb. The chin and corner of the mouth have more nerve endings and provide a more precise location. However, you can still achieve the same level of accuracy with the thumb draw, but there are more places to stop the draw. Originally, the English longbowmen drew to the ear too and the modern style was a reaction to that and was perfected by Horace Ford in the nineteenth century, I think.
Certainly, in Middle Eastern archery as described in the surviving texts, more emphasis was placed on consistent form and drawing the full length of the arrow. However, I feel that the position of the nock of the arrow in relation to the head was carefully controlled. The angle of the head to the arrow was another important consideration.
I am not sure that the description of the Khatrah actually mentions a snap at all. It is simply a rotation of the bow-hand wrist. There is a thing called a snatched release, which involves drawing the last handsbreadth of the arrow extremely rapidly. This was considered very difficult and the sign of an expert.
MJuingong,
The anchor referred to in western archery is much more positive than the touching of the earlobe with the thumb. The chin and corner of the mouth have more nerve endings and provide a more precise location. However, you can still achieve the same level of accuracy with the thumb draw, but there are more places to stop the draw. Originally, the English longbowmen drew to the ear too and the modern style was a reaction to that and was perfected by Horace Ford in the nineteenth century, I think.
Certainly, in Middle Eastern archery as described in the surviving texts, more emphasis was placed on consistent form and drawing the full length of the arrow. However, I feel that the position of the nock of the arrow in relation to the head was carefully controlled. The angle of the head to the arrow was another important consideration.