Polovets stone statues
My fight with viruses seems to be victorious (at least for a moment), so here is the promised theme:
Well, the Polovets is a nomad Turkic people that came to Russian steppe frontier in 1055 AD. Since that they occupied the steppes from Danube in the East to Volga in the west. In the western chronicles they were mentioned as Cuman; and as Kipchaq (sometimes as Kimaq) in Arab and Persian sources. They were quite uneasy neighbors for all peoples and countries that bordered with them. Divided into many hordes thay seems to be gathered together by the territory where they roam. Sometimes some of them united under one successful khan (Bonyak, Tugorkhan, Sharukhan, Konchack, Kotyan), while others never combined with their relatives. The last ones were known to Russians as Wild Polovets who served as mounted mercenary in Russian principalities, Georgian kingdoms, Hungary, Byzantium, Bulgaria. They were well known for their mounted archery skills. The Mongol invasion in 1223, 1236-40 wiped them away. Some of them run to Hungary, some were sold as a warrior-slaves to Egypt (where they along with Western Caucasian warrior-slaves were organized in Mameluke troops). The rest became the lower class population of Golden Horde mixing with other Turkic peoples.
They left in Ukrainian, Russian, North Caucasus steppes and Crimea thousands of huge stone statues depicted their warriors, khans, and women in static poses. Many of statues were broken, used in the recent buildings, hided by the last free kinsmen. Up to the modern times more than 1300 statues known.
On some statues the archery related items clearly depicted. Near all of them dated 12 century AD. I took a preliminary look through the literature – so please take a look on them.
Well, the Polovets is a nomad Turkic people that came to Russian steppe frontier in 1055 AD. Since that they occupied the steppes from Danube in the East to Volga in the west. In the western chronicles they were mentioned as Cuman; and as Kipchaq (sometimes as Kimaq) in Arab and Persian sources. They were quite uneasy neighbors for all peoples and countries that bordered with them. Divided into many hordes thay seems to be gathered together by the territory where they roam. Sometimes some of them united under one successful khan (Bonyak, Tugorkhan, Sharukhan, Konchack, Kotyan), while others never combined with their relatives. The last ones were known to Russians as Wild Polovets who served as mounted mercenary in Russian principalities, Georgian kingdoms, Hungary, Byzantium, Bulgaria. They were well known for their mounted archery skills. The Mongol invasion in 1223, 1236-40 wiped them away. Some of them run to Hungary, some were sold as a warrior-slaves to Egypt (where they along with Western Caucasian warrior-slaves were organized in Mameluke troops). The rest became the lower class population of Golden Horde mixing with other Turkic peoples.
They left in Ukrainian, Russian, North Caucasus steppes and Crimea thousands of huge stone statues depicted their warriors, khans, and women in static poses. Many of statues were broken, used in the recent buildings, hided by the last free kinsmen. Up to the modern times more than 1300 statues known.
On some statues the archery related items clearly depicted. Near all of them dated 12 century AD. I took a preliminary look through the literature – so please take a look on them.
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Thank you.
I want to ask: what is the object clasped in their hands at the front? I know that in Siberia and north China, there is a tradition of monumental stone sculptures of people in this rigid pose, and those people usually grasp a long sword which goes down to the ground between their feet. The sculptures are generally attributed to 'Turkic' peoples. What is your view?
I want to ask: what is the object clasped in their hands at the front? I know that in Siberia and north China, there is a tradition of monumental stone sculptures of people in this rigid pose, and those people usually grasp a long sword which goes down to the ground between their feet. The sculptures are generally attributed to 'Turkic' peoples. What is your view?
Stephen,
All the Polovets' stone sculptures holds with two hands a bowl, a vessel, that may varied in many forms (or at least has the bowl depicted).
In South Siberia and Kazakhstan stands many stone sculptures dated 6-10 c. AD. The sculptures attributed to Turkic cultures. Most of them has the bowl in two/one hands, while the other hand may place on the sword's handle (hanging diagonal or horizontal from the decorated belt) or on the belt itself.
Remarkable the lack of any archery related items on the Siberian sculptures although many sculptures has very detailed portrayal of upper clothes, adornment, decorated warrior’s belts, small bags, swords and daggers in sheathes, whips, mirrors etc.
All the Polovets' stone sculptures holds with two hands a bowl, a vessel, that may varied in many forms (or at least has the bowl depicted).
In South Siberia and Kazakhstan stands many stone sculptures dated 6-10 c. AD. The sculptures attributed to Turkic cultures. Most of them has the bowl in two/one hands, while the other hand may place on the sword's handle (hanging diagonal or horizontal from the decorated belt) or on the belt itself.
Remarkable the lack of any archery related items on the Siberian sculptures although many sculptures has very detailed portrayal of upper clothes, adornment, decorated warrior’s belts, small bags, swords and daggers in sheathes, whips, mirrors etc.
Quite a few of the bowls have survived. They were a drinking vessel made from silver or gold. Sometimes there was a tab with a ring on one side.
Bede,
I'm not so familiar with much earlier Siberian sculptures, but the vessel in Polovets' statue' s hands carved from the same material - stone.
The bowl shapes is quite various. There are few hypothesis existing on the bowl (memorial/funeral bowl, feast bowl and so on with water or milk alcoholic drink) and the statues itself (killed enemy, famous tribesmen, common ancestor).
Never heard of the bowl excavated at sculptures’ foot!
I'm not so familiar with much earlier Siberian sculptures, but the vessel in Polovets' statue' s hands carved from the same material - stone.
The bowl shapes is quite various. There are few hypothesis existing on the bowl (memorial/funeral bowl, feast bowl and so on with water or milk alcoholic drink) and the statues itself (killed enemy, famous tribesmen, common ancestor).
Never heard of the bowl excavated at sculptures’ foot!
Gleb,
The bowls were found in tombs, not at the foot of the statues. There are some Russian publications with references to the objects and the statues.
The bowls were found in tombs, not at the foot of the statues. There are some Russian publications with references to the objects and the statues.
All the museums in Central Asia which I visited had these stone figures. They are also called balbal stones or baba stones. There was no concise story about then. Some are found on the top of kurgans which would make one think of them as Scythian but kurgans were used in all later periods as grave yards.
The other story is that they date from the Turkic period, maybe from the fourth century to the tenth or eleventh.
Various curators denied that these were kings or gods. The concensus is that they were guardians. It seems not to be known for sure.
Many held cups; some held their hands on their stomachs like they had pain.
One had a cup with a bird on the shoulder. Would be most interesting to find some good article on the subject. Add Turkic Runic inscriptions which sometimes accompany balbal stones.
The other story is that they date from the Turkic period, maybe from the fourth century to the tenth or eleventh.
Various curators denied that these were kings or gods. The concensus is that they were guardians. It seems not to be known for sure.
Many held cups; some held their hands on their stomachs like they had pain.
One had a cup with a bird on the shoulder. Would be most interesting to find some good article on the subject. Add Turkic Runic inscriptions which sometimes accompany balbal stones.
:lol: Jack , no "balbal" , but baba stone. Baba is slavs word for grand mother or old women , but is use too (in slovac) like "b?bka" for the name of all wooden figures like Pinoccio.I mean this name havnt any istorical logic. Its only Russian funy name for stone statue.
Nevertheless if one googles on balbal one will find much information on these stones. It is possible that the origin of the term is not Slavic but Turkic. In Turkish baba is father or elderly man or newel post or a short thick post. This would fit perfectly.
See: http://www.altaica.ru/LIBRARY/DOERFER/D ... ng1993.pdfDusan wrote:
:lol: Jack , no "balbal" , but baba stone. Baba is slavs word for grand mother or old women , but is use too (in slovac) like "b?bka" for the name of all wooden figures like Pinoccio.I mean this name havnt any istorical logic. Its only Russian funy name for stone statue.
Yes , its more logical. I was thinking that Russian archeologist give name this statues.But interesting is close termes-old women , old man ...
Baba is also a Turkish word meaning father or forefather. It is perhaps a mistake to think that because the Russians once ruled an area that all the words used there come from the Russian language. The local Turks probably referred to these statues as their "forefathers".
The Polovets are also referred to at the Pechenegs. There are many references to them in Byzantine histories as well as early Russian chronicles.
The Polovets are also referred to at the Pechenegs. There are many references to them in Byzantine histories as well as early Russian chronicles.
Well, before Russians live here Slavs , but this is another theme. Yes , maybe its turkic word , but stil i think that, if it is Turkic or not, "baba" say about that people who give stones name ,live much more later and know about kurgans only , that here lie his very old relative- "baba".
Dusan,
There is extensive literature on this in Russian and English. The Wikipedia entry on Balbals believes the word was simplified into Baba by the loss of the "l". The origin of the word is given as Kirghiz. This is an accessible way to find the references even if you don't agree with all the conclusions.
Since the term is generic now and is used for many types of carved standing stones, there is bound to be confusion. There are even some early Slavic statues mentioned pre-dating Christianity among the Slavs.
I have seen an article from G. V. Kubarev, who may be the son of the Siberian (Russian) archaeologist, Vladimir Kubarev, who I met many years ago. There are some very good people in this field.
There is extensive literature on this in Russian and English. The Wikipedia entry on Balbals believes the word was simplified into Baba by the loss of the "l". The origin of the word is given as Kirghiz. This is an accessible way to find the references even if you don't agree with all the conclusions.
Since the term is generic now and is used for many types of carved standing stones, there is bound to be confusion. There are even some early Slavic statues mentioned pre-dating Christianity among the Slavs.
I have seen an article from G. V. Kubarev, who may be the son of the Siberian (Russian) archaeologist, Vladimir Kubarev, who I met many years ago. There are some very good people in this field.
Well, Cumans (Kuns here) are still doing fine and respect their forefathers as this relatively new stuff close to the town Karcag (midlde Hungary) indicates.
Szabi
Kun-baba
Szabi
Kun-baba
Interesting Szaby. This is modern reminiscens or historical long tradition? I mean , is in this teritory old sculptures too ?
These sculptures are contemporary. They indicate that the people of this area still feel connected with their roots. I don't know about old baba-findings here, but my knowledge is biased (I'm not a kun).
Szabi
Szabi
This is Xilin Gol League in Inner Mongolia in China, the Turkic people found the statue, where a large number, from the modeling point of view there is men and women, the elderly have also have children, most of them in about 1.3 meters.
Just in case to clear up the situation with all that nomadic Turkic peoples once lived in the steppes of Ukraine and Russia. They replaced each other in a quite nonrepetitive sequence.
The Pechenegs (Patzinaks, Kangars) are Turkic people that occupied the modern Ukrainian and Russian steppes from 9 to late 11 centuries AD. They forced out nomadic Magyars that lived there before (so called Atelcusa region). In their turn during 11 century they were force out from that region by Torks (that were a part of Oghuz Turks). Torks lived thre for a very short time – to the late 11 century when Torks were drive out by Polovets who roamed there until the Mongol army came in 1236-41.
The Pechenegs (Patzinaks, Kangars) are Turkic people that occupied the modern Ukrainian and Russian steppes from 9 to late 11 centuries AD. They forced out nomadic Magyars that lived there before (so called Atelcusa region). In their turn during 11 century they were force out from that region by Torks (that were a part of Oghuz Turks). Torks lived thre for a very short time – to the late 11 century when Torks were drive out by Polovets who roamed there until the Mongol army came in 1236-41.
On the Russian term for the Polovets' sculpture ("baba"):
In Russian chronicles the first mention of the word “baba” as applied to the Polovets' sculpture occurred in 1398 AD. Even earlier the similar sculpture was mentioned as “bolvan” in “The Tale of Igor's Campaign” dated end of the 12th century. Some researchers derive the Russian term from Turkic “baba” (father, forefather), other from ancient Orkhon Turkic “balbal” (but the true meaning of this word lost: “statue”, “stone with inscription” as suppositions), some from Iranian “pahlaban” ((epic) hero; athlete).
In Russian chronicles the first mention of the word “baba” as applied to the Polovets' sculpture occurred in 1398 AD. Even earlier the similar sculpture was mentioned as “bolvan” in “The Tale of Igor's Campaign” dated end of the 12th century. Some researchers derive the Russian term from Turkic “baba” (father, forefather), other from ancient Orkhon Turkic “balbal” (but the true meaning of this word lost: “statue”, “stone with inscription” as suppositions), some from Iranian “pahlaban” ((epic) hero; athlete).
Maybe needed say the "bolvan" is - stone.
Gleb; If you go back further into the history of Ukraine, in 700BC peoples called Cimmerians lived there. I do not know how long. Then Scythians-Skyfs who had been pushed west made them leave without a fight to avoid annihilation; they killed their own leaders who said to stay and fight. And then the Cimmerians left and destroyed the area of the Near East. (Herodotus)
Joseph Stalin did his best to move as many Turkic folks back to Central Asia in exactly the same manner. But I do not mean to open up politics.
Also language changes over the centuries. I can hardly understand Shakespear from only 500 years ago. I have an illustration that I got in Central Asia showing a great tree of names. The three great branches of that tree are Huns, Skifs, and Turks.
Whatever those stones are, I will just call them balbal because of the literature in English written on them.
And now my point. If a balbal is holding a cup, this is not a guardian, this is a sign of welcome. Among the Turks the first thing to do is to offer drink, and then food. When you arrive this is offered three times. If in another he holds a sword, maybe this is a guardian.
Chiron's balbal wears a belt with many plates. Therefore he is an important man offering drink. What do you think guys?
Joseph Stalin did his best to move as many Turkic folks back to Central Asia in exactly the same manner. But I do not mean to open up politics.
Also language changes over the centuries. I can hardly understand Shakespear from only 500 years ago. I have an illustration that I got in Central Asia showing a great tree of names. The three great branches of that tree are Huns, Skifs, and Turks.
Whatever those stones are, I will just call them balbal because of the literature in English written on them.
And now my point. If a balbal is holding a cup, this is not a guardian, this is a sign of welcome. Among the Turks the first thing to do is to offer drink, and then food. When you arrive this is offered three times. If in another he holds a sword, maybe this is a guardian.
Chiron's balbal wears a belt with many plates. Therefore he is an important man offering drink. What do you think guys?
That is very interesting.
The word bolvan is very close to Polish (Slavic) word bałwan which (like Gleb mentioned) used to mean a statue of an idol in pre-Christian times, after the conversion to Christianity the word gained a pejorative meaning to make people think negatively of the former beliefs.
I suppose now not many people in Poland can connect that word to it?s original meaning.
I?m not surprised to hear that the word baba as used by Slavs could be of Turkish origin as there is plenty of such words in contemporary Polish language, among them some archery related terms e.g. sajdak - bow case.
The word bolvan is very close to Polish (Slavic) word bałwan which (like Gleb mentioned) used to mean a statue of an idol in pre-Christian times, after the conversion to Christianity the word gained a pejorative meaning to make people think negatively of the former beliefs.
I suppose now not many people in Poland can connect that word to it?s original meaning.
I?m not surprised to hear that the word baba as used by Slavs could be of Turkish origin as there is plenty of such words in contemporary Polish language, among them some archery related terms e.g. sajdak - bow case.
Jack mi English is so bad , than i cant starting complicated discusion about history .(or about anything more precise... :oops: )But in very short version. I dont know what about mean Gleb but for me - Slavs live in all asia much more earlier ,then we can imagine. This is somthing absurd to todays historicians and archeologists but... You know. History write vinners. Isnt it ?
Early Kingdoms have name of his kings and his honor people are his tribe soldiers, who do you mean work from him all food, armour, art things from gold to bronze or iron, konstruct his palaces and etc. You believ that his soldiers ? Or prisoner of war-another warriors ? All big kingdoms in history starting from the same scenario- no so big ,but very agresive nomad warrior tribe or tribes ataccking territory where live agricultural no fighting people ( about 80 years archeology talking about- first time when find in Switzerland lake farmer culture village. From this time discovering in all europe and especialy in asia more and more same tipe villiges.)Satlled here and helping vith violent terror (like Germans last time) force agricultural people working for him.
Like Magyars 100 years earlier caling Slavs " talking cattle" . Nowadays we tend to think about slavery only in relation with African people in America. But Slavs were slaves much more earlier - actually they gave name to slavery in ancient times! (sieloyan (farmer) -> slavyan, slav -> lat. sclavus -> slave.)
About existence this people archeological findins talking nothing. In old books is writing only about power people-Sumers, Akkadians , Egyptians, Greeks, Skitas, Cimerians. Even Herodotos writing about diferent "Skitas"tribes- farmers who working in ground , and fightins warriors. Very slowly some people in archeology go to the thru. Warriors nomads people NEVER working like farmers ! Like say todays historicians . Never building zikurats or piramids ! Nomad hate this people, hate his sistem of live , hate his knowligde about nature- its tabu (see greeks epos about Prometheus), but use his work- its heaven in earth.
If you see in open eyes ,this cultural etik live in Big "warriors " countries to this days and was introduce to whoole world. You are pride if you are politic, biznisman vith political or somwhere soldier power too , profesional soldier, profesional hunter, sportsman... Nobody was pride if you are farmer, plumber, and milion other jobs. Sorry for this outtopic , but we are here talking al time very close about history.
In oficial history Slavs live somvhere in central rusiia or little north vith no history (!) and about 500 go to the central Europe. Very funny. Who you mean working in early China ? Nomads ? How you can feed all big armies from mongolia cros Mezopotamia to Greece ? Who building all big fenomenal buildings ? Nomads ? But history talking only about warrior nomad country and people. And why i talking only about Slavs like representative agrycultural people ?
Language. Verb. Farmers folklor in whole world. And so many blond , or red hair Vikings , Britains ,or Germans vith blue eyes :lol:
Early Kingdoms have name of his kings and his honor people are his tribe soldiers, who do you mean work from him all food, armour, art things from gold to bronze or iron, konstruct his palaces and etc. You believ that his soldiers ? Or prisoner of war-another warriors ? All big kingdoms in history starting from the same scenario- no so big ,but very agresive nomad warrior tribe or tribes ataccking territory where live agricultural no fighting people ( about 80 years archeology talking about- first time when find in Switzerland lake farmer culture village. From this time discovering in all europe and especialy in asia more and more same tipe villiges.)Satlled here and helping vith violent terror (like Germans last time) force agricultural people working for him.
Like Magyars 100 years earlier caling Slavs " talking cattle" . Nowadays we tend to think about slavery only in relation with African people in America. But Slavs were slaves much more earlier - actually they gave name to slavery in ancient times! (sieloyan (farmer) -> slavyan, slav -> lat. sclavus -> slave.)
About existence this people archeological findins talking nothing. In old books is writing only about power people-Sumers, Akkadians , Egyptians, Greeks, Skitas, Cimerians. Even Herodotos writing about diferent "Skitas"tribes- farmers who working in ground , and fightins warriors. Very slowly some people in archeology go to the thru. Warriors nomads people NEVER working like farmers ! Like say todays historicians . Never building zikurats or piramids ! Nomad hate this people, hate his sistem of live , hate his knowligde about nature- its tabu (see greeks epos about Prometheus), but use his work- its heaven in earth.
If you see in open eyes ,this cultural etik live in Big "warriors " countries to this days and was introduce to whoole world. You are pride if you are politic, biznisman vith political or somwhere soldier power too , profesional soldier, profesional hunter, sportsman... Nobody was pride if you are farmer, plumber, and milion other jobs. Sorry for this outtopic , but we are here talking al time very close about history.
In oficial history Slavs live somvhere in central rusiia or little north vith no history (!) and about 500 go to the central Europe. Very funny. Who you mean working in early China ? Nomads ? How you can feed all big armies from mongolia cros Mezopotamia to Greece ? Who building all big fenomenal buildings ? Nomads ? But history talking only about warrior nomad country and people. And why i talking only about Slavs like representative agrycultural people ?
Language. Verb. Farmers folklor in whole world. And so many blond , or red hair Vikings , Britains ,or Germans vith blue eyes :lol:
Dusan wrote:
Jack mi English is so bad , than i cant starting complicated discusion about history .(or about anything more precise... :oops: )But in very short version. I dont know what about mean Gleb but for me - Slavs live in all asia much more later then we can imagine. This is somthing absurd to todays historicians and archeologists but... You know. History write vinners. Isnt it ?
Late Kingdoms have name of his kings and his honor people are his tribe soldiers, who do you mean work from him all food, armour, art things from gold to bronze or iron, konstruct his palaces and etc. You believ that his soldiers ? Or prisoner of war-another warriors ? All big kingdoms in history starting from the same scenario- no so big ,but very agresive nomad warrior tribe or tribes ataccking territory where live agricultural no fighting people ( about 80 years archeology talking about- first time when find in Switzerland lake farmer culture village. From this time discovering in all europe and especialy in asia more and more same tipe villiges.)Satlled here and helping vith violent terror (like Germans last time) force agricultural people working for him.
About existence this people archeological findins talking nothing. In old books is writing only about power people-Sumers, Akkadians , Egyptians, Greeks, Skitas, Cimerians. Even Herodotos writing about diferent "Skitas"tribes- farmers who working in ground , and fightins warriors. Very slowly some people in archeology go to the thru. Warriors nomads people NEVER working like farmers ! Like say todays historicians . Never building zikurats or piramids ! Nomad hate this people, hate his sistem of live , hate his knowligde about nature- its tabu (see greeks epos about Prometheus), but use his work- its heaven in earth.
If you see in open eyes ,this cultural etik live in Big "warriors " countries to this days and was introduce to whoole world. You are pride if you are politic, biznisman vith political or somwhere soldier power too , profesional soldier, profesional hunter, sportsman... Nobody was pride if you are farmer, plumber, and milion other jobs. Sorry for this outtopic , but we are here talking al time very close about history.
In oficial history Slavs live somvhere in central rusiia or little north vith no history (!) and about 500 go to the central Europe. Very funny. Who you mean working in late China ? Nomads ? How you can feed all big armies from mongolia cros Mezopotamia to Greece ? Who building all big fenomenal buildings ? Nomads ? But history talking only about warrior nomad country and people. And why i talking only about Slavs like representative agrycultural people ?
Language. Verb. Farmers folklor in whole world. And so many blond , or red hair Vikings , Britains ,or Germans vith blue eyes :lol:
Dusan,
I don't understand what you are saying. There are many confusions between languages. In Greek, ΣΚΥΘΟΣ, was pronounced as SKUTHOS. In transmission through Latin and French, it turned into Scythian. Because Russian Cyrillic pronounced "Θ" as " F", we have Skif. Skita happens when "th" becomes "t".
This means we have many different ways of writing the same thing. I think that you are expressing yourself well but because of the ways the words change spelling, I am getting confused.
Do you mean that because of the difference in attitude of nomads to civilisations, we cannot understand their perception of the people they encountered? The academics are mixed up because their views are civilised compared to those of nomads? Or have I missed the point?
I don't understand what you are saying. There are many confusions between languages. In Greek, ΣΚΥΘΟΣ, was pronounced as SKUTHOS. In transmission through Latin and French, it turned into Scythian. Because Russian Cyrillic pronounced "Θ" as " F", we have Skif. Skita happens when "th" becomes "t".
This means we have many different ways of writing the same thing. I think that you are expressing yourself well but because of the ways the words change spelling, I am getting confused.
Do you mean that because of the difference in attitude of nomads to civilisations, we cannot understand their perception of the people they encountered? The academics are mixed up because their views are civilised compared to those of nomads? Or have I missed the point?
Jack,
I was talking about Middle Ages steppes, so could not get the point why you are mentioned Scythians and Cimmerians. Please advice me on the case.
By the way; during Stalin era (in autumn 1943- autumn 1944, immediately after the region was free from German troops) only four Turkic people was moved – Karachai, Balkar, Cream-Tartar and Turk-Meskhetin. I do not want to open politics either but the manner of their move was quite different from the Ancient and Middle Ages ones.
I would name the three great branches of Asian steppes as Iranian, Turk and Mongolian, because nobody knows the Huns language, Scythians seems to be spoken Iranian, and Mongolian languages was spoken by the most peoples who set afire the neighboring countries in 13-17 centuries AD.
What about the semantics concerning the Polovets’ sculptures (and even the whole phenomenon of steppes’ statues) – there are still too many uncertain moments. At one point the most ancient sculptures (in Altai, Tuva and so on) were set up in honor of a fellow tribesman who killed many enemies (one enemy – one stone). So for the these early Stella there is one main point existing: that the simple standing stones represents the killed enemy warriors, and the human figure represents the hero himself. The cult of ancestors is a common feature for all Turkic peoples. The living tribesmen honor their heroes during ceremonial feast where the ancestors take ceremonial part. That’s why they hold a bowl in their hand. The swords and warrior’s decorated belts (a feature that was really popular in 6-10 centuries AD) denoting their military status.
The more later Polovets’ sculptures represents the further developments of the tradition: the statue represents not only the fallen hero (or famous warrior) but the ancestor in more common sense. From that point we find the explanation for many female figures among Polovets’ sculptures (some researches propose the sameness of female sculptures and Turkic goodness Umai). The worships for all sculptures are mentioned by many contemporary writers (Nizami, Roubruk).
I was talking about Middle Ages steppes, so could not get the point why you are mentioned Scythians and Cimmerians. Please advice me on the case.
By the way; during Stalin era (in autumn 1943- autumn 1944, immediately after the region was free from German troops) only four Turkic people was moved – Karachai, Balkar, Cream-Tartar and Turk-Meskhetin. I do not want to open politics either but the manner of their move was quite different from the Ancient and Middle Ages ones.
I would name the three great branches of Asian steppes as Iranian, Turk and Mongolian, because nobody knows the Huns language, Scythians seems to be spoken Iranian, and Mongolian languages was spoken by the most peoples who set afire the neighboring countries in 13-17 centuries AD.
What about the semantics concerning the Polovets’ sculptures (and even the whole phenomenon of steppes’ statues) – there are still too many uncertain moments. At one point the most ancient sculptures (in Altai, Tuva and so on) were set up in honor of a fellow tribesman who killed many enemies (one enemy – one stone). So for the these early Stella there is one main point existing: that the simple standing stones represents the killed enemy warriors, and the human figure represents the hero himself. The cult of ancestors is a common feature for all Turkic peoples. The living tribesmen honor their heroes during ceremonial feast where the ancestors take ceremonial part. That’s why they hold a bowl in their hand. The swords and warrior’s decorated belts (a feature that was really popular in 6-10 centuries AD) denoting their military status.
The more later Polovets’ sculptures represents the further developments of the tradition: the statue represents not only the fallen hero (or famous warrior) but the ancestor in more common sense. From that point we find the explanation for many female figures among Polovets’ sculptures (some researches propose the sameness of female sculptures and Turkic goodness Umai). The worships for all sculptures are mentioned by many contemporary writers (Nizami, Roubruk).
Bede, maybe i am lttle out of topic an litle" hot" , but this theme about farmers vs nomads -hunter/salvage people was in last fue days very intensive in mi discusion vith mi friends , and i was shot this in this forum.
Anyway i mean its very interesting , mostly for you guys from anglosas world. :lol: Its not only about Skitas, this teori go more earlier to 15 -20 000 bc.
Anyway i mean its very interesting , mostly for you guys from anglosas world. :lol: Its not only about Skitas, this teori go more earlier to 15 -20 000 bc.
Gleb; My point about the Cimmerians and the Scythians is that history repeats itself. My point about 20th century history is based on a friendship I have with a man whose family, village and more were moved to Central Asia, so history repeated itself.
Dusan; concerning a supposed rift between nomads and settled populations there has been much written. From this point the focus is now on how much these types relied on eachother. I have to point out that in my area of interest, Central Asia, the agriculturists were equally armed as the nomads.
For myself i do not glorify war or warfare. I just like the bows and arrows.
I can understand you quite well and appreciate your's and Gleb's contributions. -j-
Dusan; concerning a supposed rift between nomads and settled populations there has been much written. From this point the focus is now on how much these types relied on eachother. I have to point out that in my area of interest, Central Asia, the agriculturists were equally armed as the nomads.
For myself i do not glorify war or warfare. I just like the bows and arrows.
I can understand you quite well and appreciate your's and Gleb's contributions. -j-
Jack i love bows and arrows too - especialy composites :D . You remember Kurosawas famous film 7 samurays ? This is essencial farmers live.
![[external image]](http://img.enter4u.eu/th/skitskesoskys9cb.jpg){kind=link}
Dusan wrote:
Like Magyars 100 years earlier caling Slavs " talking cattle" . Nowadays we tend to think about slavery only in relation with African people in America. But Slavs were slaves much more earlier - actually they gave name to slavery in ancient times! (sieloyan (farmer) -> slavyan, slav -> lat. sclavus -> slave.)
This is one of most repeated non-sense about name Slavs.
Peoples of Slavic speaking languages call themselves Sloveni/Slaveni/Slavyani not because someone considered them as slaves/sclavus but because they considered themselves as those ones which speak- sloviti is ancient Slavic word and in most Slavic languages means to speak , to be understable or slaviti means to glorify, to celbrate. Slavs wanted to draw a distinction with ancient neighbours Germans which weren't understable for them and then the name Nemci/Nemac in Slavic languages, which means mute, silent, non-understable, for Germans which is not offensive. Why should had we called ourselves slaves? Even Ottoman conquerors never called Slavic peoples K?leler.
Byzantine chronnicles never mentioned Slavs as sclavus but Sclavinii ,derived from term Sloveni and their settlements as Sclaviniae. As i call myself Srbin and never Serb, Servien, Le Serb as it is in English,Dutch or French spelling or you call yourself Slovak which is derived from sloviti.
These teories about slaves and ''talking cattle'' are expansionistic teories of Austro-Hungarian politic at the end of XIX and beg.XXth c as ''civilizatory mission'' tent to justify conquests of new colonies in Africa...........
Dusan,Sorry 'cause i am out of topic[/quote]
But since this is site about traditional archery research back to topic.
I noticed something very interesting at these statues. Position, quivers and bowcases design reminds me at some designs which appear on Serbian mural painting and also some of quivers looks like that one who appears in Psalter from XIV century called Serbische Psalter which could prove Cuman influence.
This interesting miniature shows mounted archer drawing the arrow till the chest, possibly thumbring technique. This is only depicted proof about horse archery in balkan medieval countries such as Bulgaria or Serbia beside St.Demetrios in Markov monastery in North Macedonia. The way that archer rides looks like byzantine style to me. Maybe new topic about it should be open.
I scanned it from the Arms and armour of the Crusading Era, Islam,Eastern Europe and Asia.
Note: they referred it as Bulgarian psalter though in Bayerische staatbibliothek ''Serbische psalter'' is under cod.4 Slav as i know.I can't find original miniature. If someone has some information about this miniature let us know.
Like Magyars 100 years earlier caling Slavs " talking cattle" . Nowadays we tend to think about slavery only in relation with African people in America. But Slavs were slaves much more earlier - actually they gave name to slavery in ancient times! (sieloyan (farmer) -> slavyan, slav -> lat. sclavus -> slave.)
This is one of most repeated non-sense about name Slavs.
Peoples of Slavic speaking languages call themselves Sloveni/Slaveni/Slavyani not because someone considered them as slaves/sclavus but because they considered themselves as those ones which speak- sloviti is ancient Slavic word and in most Slavic languages means to speak , to be understable or slaviti means to glorify, to celbrate. Slavs wanted to draw a distinction with ancient neighbours Germans which weren't understable for them and then the name Nemci/Nemac in Slavic languages, which means mute, silent, non-understable, for Germans which is not offensive. Why should had we called ourselves slaves? Even Ottoman conquerors never called Slavic peoples K?leler.
Byzantine chronnicles never mentioned Slavs as sclavus but Sclavinii ,derived from term Sloveni and their settlements as Sclaviniae. As i call myself Srbin and never Serb, Servien, Le Serb as it is in English,Dutch or French spelling or you call yourself Slovak which is derived from sloviti.
These teories about slaves and ''talking cattle'' are expansionistic teories of Austro-Hungarian politic at the end of XIX and beg.XXth c as ''civilizatory mission'' tent to justify conquests of new colonies in Africa...........
Dusan,Sorry 'cause i am out of topic[/quote]
But since this is site about traditional archery research back to topic.
I noticed something very interesting at these statues. Position, quivers and bowcases design reminds me at some designs which appear on Serbian mural painting and also some of quivers looks like that one who appears in Psalter from XIV century called Serbische Psalter which could prove Cuman influence.
This interesting miniature shows mounted archer drawing the arrow till the chest, possibly thumbring technique. This is only depicted proof about horse archery in balkan medieval countries such as Bulgaria or Serbia beside St.Demetrios in Markov monastery in North Macedonia. The way that archer rides looks like byzantine style to me. Maybe new topic about it should be open.
I scanned it from the Arms and armour of the Crusading Era, Islam,Eastern Europe and Asia.
Note: they referred it as Bulgarian psalter though in Bayerische staatbibliothek ''Serbische psalter'' is under cod.4 Slav as i know.I can't find original miniature. If someone has some information about this miniature let us know.