Magyar Bow - questions

Why not? I do not think you would have any problems with acacia or mulberry for the siyahs.

Adam

Thank you, Adam! My worry about the siyahs is not their solidity but their mass, weght. The Magyar bow has relatively long and heavier siyahs. Will that be a problem?

One more question ? how approximately is the width of the V-splices? I have read somewhere it must be about an inch.

The wood core in my bow will be from two parts joint in the area of the handle. How do you think about the variant ?re-covering of the two parts?? Do you have any better idea???

Best regards
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Why not just splice limb core into handle??
It is very common and is strong enough, just make sure to splice long enough...normal V splice like used for siyah, maybe 10~15 cm

Black locust on average is heavier than Mulberry wood...black locust(0.69 sg~0.77) mulberry (0.66 sg~0.7)
Though, both work quite well for holding shape so...which ever you use should work well.

As I understand it a siyah is an ear of a Turkic bow which includes a kasan, a ridged section. Would this be relevant to a Magyar bow?

It would seem that if the grip were lapped then the ears would not be V-spliced in on an actual historic piece. Andrew is the man to comment here.

The width of the V-splice equals the width of the narrower member, as estimated after final shaping. Then the glue-line length of the V-joint will be the greatest for the best bond. Perhaps the width of your siyah will be 1 inch at the joint, as you say.

The spec. gravity of wood species overlap quite a bit, so it may be best to weigh samples of the same volume to be sure which is lighter.

Adam

Pazuzu,
The originals did not use splices between limbs and siyahs (at least from the examples of the Moshcheveya Balka bows), the core is continuous from grip to tip. It is not clear how they achieved the limb siyah angle, as Kaminskiy shows none of the reinforcement strips used in earlier bows (see "On the construction of Bow and Arrows of North-Caucasian Alans" http://www.alanica.ru/article/11.htm ). It is possible they just looked for naturally shaped pieces of wood. Alternatively they managed to heat-bend fairly thick pieces.

Splicing the siyahs is a technique I have used as I find it trickier to get consistent angles with steam bending. A width of about an inch at the splice is OK. One problem with spliced in siyahs is that you either need curved pieces for the siyahs or you end up with quite short splices to avoid too much grain violation.

Note that in the originals, the siyahs taper in thickness so the side plates touch at the tips. The siyahs are also worked away to an almost triangular section at the bottom, so the density of the wood used is not that critical. The MB bows are maple, cornel and plum. More critical is the thickness of the side plates.

Are you intending to use bone plates? If not, I would recommend attaching plates made from a white coloured wood so you get a more realistic look to the bow.

Andrew

It is possible to laminate recurves with quite high angle. They look different than spliced, and I do not know if they have ever been used historically, but they are easy to make either from commercial veneers, or ones made with bandsaw.

NOTE: I have not tried to heat straigtening them, so they may pose poblem at that.

Jkekoni,
the earlier Hunnic siyah construction seems to have been laminated from two layers. The core was heat or steam bent to the appropriate angle and another strip glued to either back or belly to get the required thickness.
With plates on each side, this construction would be invisible on a completed bow.

I have used this construction successfully on several bows, but it does require more guesswork on angles as the wood springs back a bit when released from the form. It often takes me a couple of tries to get the shape right.

I am working on a bow based on the smaller of the two MB bows moment. I am using the grip joint illustrated earlier and the Hunnic bend and reinforce siyah construction. I will post some photos when the core is assembled.

Andrew

If you use many thin veneers, the thing will hold exacly as it was glued. Steaming is not even needed.

Jkekoni; But neither is a Hunnic style bow core made from veneers. See Stephen's Khotan bow for an example. The Mb bow Andrew references is by far easier. It is always harder to use authentic historic techniques. But if you want it authentic... -j-

It is also worth remembering that a siyah made from thin laminations will weigh more than a solid wood limb.

To show the fairly simple construction of these early bows, here is a photo of an assembled core. It has just been removed from the clamps, no cleaning up or width tapering yet. Hunnic style bent and reinforced siyahs (which may have been used on some of these bows), Alan/Khazar style scarfed grip with added riser.

Most of the wood here will be removed later ? the grip is far too large, the limbs too thick and the siyahs will be tapered in width to points and given a ridge at the base. I will add some small pieces of wood to the back of the tips to allow more thickness for shaping the nock bulge. (Not a problem if using side plates, but use a reinforcing strip with a deeper end if not).

If you have access to suitable woodland and permission to cut, I would think that looking for naturally shaped angles would be less work than the other techniques ? especially as originally the bows would be made from small section wood rather than the plank of maple I used. You just look for a straight section of trunk for the limb (2 feet long is plenty) and a branch coming out at a suitable angle which is clean an straight for about a foot. Then look for another one for the other limb at a slightly different angle as the MB bows are slightly asymmetric.

Andrew

Bede, heavier if you use wood with equal weight, but now so, if you put
lighter wight wood in between heavier wood.


Kerfing is also an option:
http://www.utbl.net/~jkekoni/bullet-sinew/P9200114.JPG

(and yes I am talking about ways to make static recurves, not about historical reproduction...)

Good point. For a modern siyah, you could laminate the inner part from back to belly and then laminate side pieces on in the manner of the antler plates of the originals.

It is a good thing to see traditional bows not only as ends in themselves but as ways of making new bows to take advantage of old solutions to problems common to all archers.

It is also a good thing to develop ways of producing bows that have the look and feel of old bows so that more people can afford them. Grozer, Kassai and the rest are helping spread traditonal archery too, even if we sometimes find fault with individual bows.

Andrew; Nice core. Simple and elegant. What woods, what glue? -j-

Jack,
It is all maple stuck together with hide (pearl) glue.

Attached is another photo after some cleaning up. Still a lot more wood to remove after the horn is attached.

Andrew

Hello, everyone!

I want to clarify that this is my first work on a composite bow and I am facing many difficulties and I have a lot of questions. The most important thing for me is the strength and the historically reliable form and size. Аt this time I would make а compromise with the historical techniques.
Adam, Alex, thank you for the information of the mass (weight) of the wood. Is there a table somewhere in which I could compare different woods?
jkekoni, I have also thought about using lams for the siyahs and I have even prepared some(8 millimeters thick) for steam bending and splicing several layers.
Andrew, I am glad to see the wood core of your project. What do you think about preparing the siyahs almost ready and then gluing them to the core? I will use antler or bone plates. What is the final thickness of the plates?
I am using mainly the scheme of the bow from MB. I'll be happy if you give me some references where I could see the main dimensions of the magyar bow. Because it is very difficult for me to chose some final size.
Thank you in advance!

mm maybe, you see this as some good information to use?
http://www.csudh.edu/oliver/chemdata/woods.htm

Hi Alex! thank you very much. very useful information for me. :D

Pazuzu,
How were you planning to attach your siyahs? Laminating a siyah with a curved base and attaching with a V-splice should work well. I have also used quite short V-spaces with straight siyahs, although not on very heavy bows. The siyah plates function to strengthen and stiffen the siyah. They do not help with the limb/siyah transition or splice.

Note that there are no intact Magyar bows to give measurements from, just bone plates, but some of these have had their positions measured in excavations (see the ATARN Magyar pages http://www.atarn.org/magyar/magyar_2/bow.htm ). There are two slightly earlier but related finds from Moshcheveya Balka in the Northern Caucasus. The MB bows have additional bone plates on the belly of the siyahs.

The bone plates generally had a curved inner and outer surface, with a wall thickness of ~3mm. You can probably adjust this for bow weight as they are not really necessary for bows of normal modern draw weights. I have used wooden plates to represent the bone on several bows as bone is more difficult to obtain and much more difficult to work.

I did a rough plan of a MB style bow some while ago and have attached here (actual size if you tile the printout). The thicknesses given would give a 45-50lb bow assuming fairly flat core and horn and depending on sinew thickness. If you give them a more rounded shape the weight will drop. You can adjust the lengths a bit for your own draw length.

Andrew

• Andrew, thank you for information. i vacillate between you method, and this made from my photos. I want to make based on siyah approximately 8 santimeters long, siyahs - 25 santimeters long,
  limbs approximately 40 santimeters. I have made a model of a siyah for a magyar bow from wood, synthetic plates, rubber and hemp fibres. What do you think, is that the needed form,
  or need adjustment?(red line) I beg for your criticisms and recommendations. hail!

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Pazuzu

A 25cm siyah and limbs about 40cm from the end of the grip should be fine.

From you photo, I would go to the red line. With any bowmaking, you want as little material in the limb ends as possible (not anything I claim to be any good at, as most of my composite bows have massively overbuilt tips). Try a triangular cross section in the limb/siyah transition. The thickness at the sides of the limbs only needs to expand to the bone plate depth. See examples from a MB style bow.

Andrew

Pazuzu , be carefull vith mass and veight components in your bow( sinew , bone , wood , horn) Big problem vith eficienci this tipe siahs is big mass -like in your pics. If you made only estetic bow in wall its ok, but if you try reconstruction vith good efectivity , you must very strongly controled all pieces- especialy this bid triangular in siah. Dont copy Magyars polyester bows vith big haevy siahs! Haevy siahs caused slow no efective bow

Thank you for your comments! I will make the necessary corrections.

hi andrew. Can I ask you a photo of your replica MB bow from this angle? And also a picture of bow unstring? MB plan your very intrigued me. thank you. [external image]

It might be important to remember that the massive string bindings on modern reproductions of Magyar bows are based on reconstructions, not on real finds. In all probability, the original bows had sinew bindings with birch bark covers.

As Andrew wrote, the bone or antler plates were for heavier bows than we use now. Bone and antler are workable with metal files, but it can be slow work. I find they are easy to cut with a coarse hack saw blade (18 tpi or less). When they were first used (in the case of the Yrzi bow) the transition to the siyah from the working part of the limb did not involve splicing or a large angle. Again I agree with Andrew because I don't think they ever were meant to reinforce the angle between the limb and siyah. There are some Avar remains with a distinct curve at the base of the antler lathes and they might be the exception to the rule.

bede, I made a wood core MB plans to andrew. ufffff.... I hesitate very much to do - bow magyar stile, or exact replica of the MB bow ...:roll: I like both a bow. with your help I already have a security in my work. thank you very much!

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