Arrows
Hi all
This might be a silly question ... but the arrows in the Grayson collection (the Islamic world collection at least) are much thinner than modern wooden arrows (at least all the ones I've come across). Especially guessing that they'd be shot from 100lb+ war bows as well. How did they get the right spine and everything?
Thanks
This might be a silly question ... but the arrows in the Grayson collection (the Islamic world collection at least) are much thinner than modern wooden arrows (at least all the ones I've come across). Especially guessing that they'd be shot from 100lb+ war bows as well. How did they get the right spine and everything?
Thanks
Hi daryush! :)
First I want to apologize for my wrong English language :) So sorry.
You ask a very good question. Well, shooting with strong bow and using small spine arrows is feasible. That may shooting fine, archer must "develop" special technique. This entails that the archer must respectively hold bow, so as to arrows while "go out of the bow" don't touch the bow-hand.
Thus, arrows with high spine were not needed, because wasn't created archer paradox :)
I hope that you understand my post written "Pidgin English" :)
Best regards from Poland ;)
First I want to apologize for my wrong English language :) So sorry.
You ask a very good question. Well, shooting with strong bow and using small spine arrows is feasible. That may shooting fine, archer must "develop" special technique. This entails that the archer must respectively hold bow, so as to arrows while "go out of the bow" don't touch the bow-hand.
Thus, arrows with high spine were not needed, because wasn't created archer paradox :)
I hope that you understand my post written "Pidgin English" :)
Best regards from Poland ;)
Many of the arrows are from India, are bamboo and are stouter than wood arrows of the same size. In fact much stouter, with a greater range of acceptable bow weights. Paradox affects all arrows.
Welcome Jakub. Your English is fine. -j-
Welcome Jakub. Your English is fine. -j-
Do not agree with this, because if arrow don't touch bow-hand in the last phase "go out bow", it no hits hand and in effect archery paradox does not appear :) This is my opinion, so I can be wrong ;)jack farrell wrote:
Paradox affects all arrows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJELZ0vY ... re=related
I believe this is the only movie showing thumb ring release in slow motion. If you look closely (5:40) there is a considerable flex to the arrow being fired using thumb ring method. But there is also bow rotation, witch moves the bow grip out of arrow?s way. This may explain luck of bow grip wear presents on old bows described by Mr Karpowicz and Others.
I believe this is the only movie showing thumb ring release in slow motion. If you look closely (5:40) there is a considerable flex to the arrow being fired using thumb ring method. But there is also bow rotation, witch moves the bow grip out of arrow?s way. This may explain luck of bow grip wear presents on old bows described by Mr Karpowicz and Others.
No, the archer's paradox still applies to the arrow even if it doesn't hit the bow because 1) the arrow still has to move around the bow and 2)the moment induced by the opening of the thumb (or fingers) during release will inevitably induce a certain lateral and rotational component to the string movement. These two things combine to create archer's paradox except in shoot-through centershot bows used with release aids that have symmetrical opening mechanisms--and neither feature is found in traditional bows.
A good bowyer and a good archer doesn't get rid of the archer's paradox altogether. They utilize it to get a clean release that ensures the least interference to the arrow's flight from the objects that the arrow contacts (or doesn't contact) on its way out of the bow.
A good bowyer and a good archer doesn't get rid of the archer's paradox altogether. They utilize it to get a clean release that ensures the least interference to the arrow's flight from the objects that the arrow contacts (or doesn't contact) on its way out of the bow.
Hyarmendacil- thanks for explanation of this issue ;) Now I understand.
OK, it's youtube time! :)
These are all high speed videos.
Korean
Kyudo
Mediterranean
Center shot recurve
Compound with mechanical release
Two things are certain after watching these. First: all our previous conceptions of the archers paradox are false. The arrow does not curl around the grip, it is flexed in the opposite direction initially. And second: Whatever you do the arrow is flexed. Even the compound have flexed the arrow, altough only to a lesser degree and it seeemed vertical instead of horizontal.
Still, the action of the bow hand affects the flight of the arrow in a mysterious way :)
These are all high speed videos.
Korean
Kyudo
Mediterranean
Center shot recurve
Compound with mechanical release
Two things are certain after watching these. First: all our previous conceptions of the archers paradox are false. The arrow does not curl around the grip, it is flexed in the opposite direction initially. And second: Whatever you do the arrow is flexed. Even the compound have flexed the arrow, altough only to a lesser degree and it seeemed vertical instead of horizontal.
Still, the action of the bow hand affects the flight of the arrow in a mysterious way :)
Interesting videos, especially the kyudo one;
but these don't really answer daryusz's question;
If we could have somebody shoot well made replika of heavy turkish (or other) warbow, using well made replikas of barreled arrows and
record the event using high speed cameras - that would bring us closer to the real answer.
but these don't really answer daryusz's question;
If we could have somebody shoot well made replika of heavy turkish (or other) warbow, using well made replikas of barreled arrows and
record the event using high speed cameras - that would bring us closer to the real answer.
Good topic. I have shot 90lb bows (real hornbows) with arrows spined at some 50-60lb with no trouble at all. There is of course the flex etc., but the shots were clean. I hope to get into this subject with more depth very soon (and with a high speed camera). By changing the pressure and the torque of the grip hand one can get a clean release with all kinds of arrows.
Adam
Adam
I would like to add some comments to this thread.
Jacks comments on the stiffness of Indian (Hindustani or Moghul) arrows in the Grayson collection are correct. I have spine tested 7 mm diameter arrows with military heads that came out as 90 pound equivalents. Many in my collection were in the range of 70 to 110 pounds. These projected weights are based on the standard 28 inch arrow shot from a western bow in the standard manner. Most of these Indian arrows were for a 27.5 to 28.25 inch draw.
Adam's comments about shooting light weight arrows from Turkish bows matches my experience. Arrows that would normally, in western practice, be considered appropriate for 40 to 50 pound bows shot cleanly from 60 to 80 pound Turkish bows. I didn't have stronger bows to test nor was I strong enough.
Regarding the Archer's Paradox, it is necessary to be aware that the bending of the arrow is essentially a column buckling under a load. Engineers all know that if you keep extending the height of a column it will eventually buckle under its own weight. The sudden force of the release of the bow string operates the same way. The arrow buckles under the force of the string. The method of release affects which direction it bends at first. Then the arrow oscillates. The western approach was to get the oscillation to match the position of the arrow in relation to the bow. In the East, this was not considered critical.
What this means in relation to the videos is that an individual will have more or less bending in the arrow depending on the method of release and the archer's ability to execute it it cleanly. So it is not just the stiffness of the arrow and the type of release. It is also how well the archer executes the release and how fast the bow applies the force to the arrow. This means two bows with the same strength, the same archer and the same arrow could have different degrees of paradox because one returns to brace height faster.
Adam's approach is the best. You need to conduct scientific tests where all he variables are controlled except the one you are testing. To do that you have to identify all the sources of variation. An initial list would be:
Jacks comments on the stiffness of Indian (Hindustani or Moghul) arrows in the Grayson collection are correct. I have spine tested 7 mm diameter arrows with military heads that came out as 90 pound equivalents. Many in my collection were in the range of 70 to 110 pounds. These projected weights are based on the standard 28 inch arrow shot from a western bow in the standard manner. Most of these Indian arrows were for a 27.5 to 28.25 inch draw.
Adam's comments about shooting light weight arrows from Turkish bows matches my experience. Arrows that would normally, in western practice, be considered appropriate for 40 to 50 pound bows shot cleanly from 60 to 80 pound Turkish bows. I didn't have stronger bows to test nor was I strong enough.
Regarding the Archer's Paradox, it is necessary to be aware that the bending of the arrow is essentially a column buckling under a load. Engineers all know that if you keep extending the height of a column it will eventually buckle under its own weight. The sudden force of the release of the bow string operates the same way. The arrow buckles under the force of the string. The method of release affects which direction it bends at first. Then the arrow oscillates. The western approach was to get the oscillation to match the position of the arrow in relation to the bow. In the East, this was not considered critical.
What this means in relation to the videos is that an individual will have more or less bending in the arrow depending on the method of release and the archer's ability to execute it it cleanly. So it is not just the stiffness of the arrow and the type of release. It is also how well the archer executes the release and how fast the bow applies the force to the arrow. This means two bows with the same strength, the same archer and the same arrow could have different degrees of paradox because one returns to brace height faster.
Adam's approach is the best. You need to conduct scientific tests where all he variables are controlled except the one you are testing. To do that you have to identify all the sources of variation. An initial list would be:
- The strength of the bow
The speed of recovery of the bow
The stiffness of the arrow
The length of the arrow
The nature of the nock
The mass of the arrow
The mass of the tip of the arrow in relation to the shaft
The legth of draw in relation to the length of the arrow
The method of the release of the arrow
The efficiency of the archer in using that release