perceived draw weight
A question to all of you about perceived draw weight on Asian style bows.
In all the various Asian style bows that I have shot , all of them without exception regardless of the maker feel like less than the marked draw weight. So my question is does the design and in particular the siyah contribute to this lighter perceived draw weight. Do they just feel lighter in draw weight or does the design and use of the siyah acting as a fulcrum actually reduce the the draw weight? Would dearly like to know why they feel like this.
All the best,
Alan
In all the various Asian style bows that I have shot , all of them without exception regardless of the maker feel like less than the marked draw weight. So my question is does the design and in particular the siyah contribute to this lighter perceived draw weight. Do they just feel lighter in draw weight or does the design and use of the siyah acting as a fulcrum actually reduce the the draw weight? Would dearly like to know why they feel like this.
All the best,
Alan
It is because of string lift -off which changes the string angles which increases the draw weight at a slower rate than in the early part of the draw....
Perceived draw weight is affected by stacking as well as actual effort. In an eared bow, the force draw curve should not show an increase in the change of weight compared to draw length at the end.
By that I mean the last few inches of the draw should not increase in poundage at a greater rate per inch that the earlier ones. If one inch increased the draw weight by one pound in the middle of the draw, it should be the same or less towards the end of draw. On a well designed bow, the greatest increase occurs in the first 15 to 20 inches. When you compare this to a standard longbow or a modern recurve, the bow feels smoother to draw towards the end. Shorter longbows in particular stack and you see a marked increase in draw weight at the end of the draw. Modern recurves are often (and properly) optimised to their marked draw length. You can draw them farther, but the bow does not perform as well.
There are two other things that might affect the impression of strength. One is that the rate draw weight might not be correct for the draw length you use. You may draw 27 inches and the bow is measured at 30 inches. The other is that the rated draw length is wrong for the rated draw length. This happens occasionally in factories and goes unnoticed because most people do not test the weights of their bows.
In the comments above I am, referring to bows made from modern materials. Horn and sinew composites can change their draw weights due to temperature and usage. They still retain the force draw curve shape but the amount of energy can be reduced or increased.
By that I mean the last few inches of the draw should not increase in poundage at a greater rate per inch that the earlier ones. If one inch increased the draw weight by one pound in the middle of the draw, it should be the same or less towards the end of draw. On a well designed bow, the greatest increase occurs in the first 15 to 20 inches. When you compare this to a standard longbow or a modern recurve, the bow feels smoother to draw towards the end. Shorter longbows in particular stack and you see a marked increase in draw weight at the end of the draw. Modern recurves are often (and properly) optimised to their marked draw length. You can draw them farther, but the bow does not perform as well.
There are two other things that might affect the impression of strength. One is that the rate draw weight might not be correct for the draw length you use. You may draw 27 inches and the bow is measured at 30 inches. The other is that the rated draw length is wrong for the rated draw length. This happens occasionally in factories and goes unnoticed because most people do not test the weights of their bows.
In the comments above I am, referring to bows made from modern materials. Horn and sinew composites can change their draw weights due to temperature and usage. They still retain the force draw curve shape but the amount of energy can be reduced or increased.
Thanx Tom , Bede,
I guess that I should have posted this under hardware.
Alan
I guess that I should have posted this under hardware.
Alan
About hornbows, as far as I know they change draw weight slightly. Stronger in Winter, lighter in Summer. I was told that the difference is only a few pounds. Anyone recorded this difference in draw weight along the seasons?
Jose, yes I was aware of that with horn bows . My query was about horn as well as fiberglass/wood bows with siyah,s as to the felt draw weight.
All that I have shot feel like they have a lighter draw weight than stated.
As for my experience I have shot Saluki bows both horn and fiberglass, a couple of brands that I can not remember as well as one of Jaap Koppendrayer's bows. Also a couple of Korean style bows as well .
I was wondering if the siyah acts as a sort of fulcrum to lessen the felt draw weight. My 80# long bow feels like 80# to me.
Alan
All that I have shot feel like they have a lighter draw weight than stated.
As for my experience I have shot Saluki bows both horn and fiberglass, a couple of brands that I can not remember as well as one of Jaap Koppendrayer's bows. Also a couple of Korean style bows as well .
I was wondering if the siyah acts as a sort of fulcrum to lessen the felt draw weight. My 80# long bow feels like 80# to me.
Alan
Hi Alan, yes I agree. Recurve bows (modern working recurves and rigid siyahs) are easier to draw and feel slightly lighter than longbows by its inherent function. But according to my limited experience, the problem is the thumbring shooting. It?s way easier to draw a bow with 3 fingers, I mean it?s harder for the thumb and feels heavier because the small contact area. Also, the shorter the bow, the harder it feels.
Hi Alan, yes I agree. Recurve bows (modern working recurves and rigid siyahs) are easier to draw and feel slightly lighter than longbows by its inherent function. But according to my limited experience, the problem is the thumbring shooting. It?s way easier to draw a bow with 3 fingers, I mean it?s harder for the thumb and feels heavier because the small contact area. Also, the shorter the bow, the harder it feels.
Jose,
The experience that one has with a particular shooting style is the major influence on how you feel about whether it is easier to draw or not. I have used thumb rings for thirty years and to me a three fingered draw seems less easy on heavier bows. I really feel it in the ring finger which feels like it is being crushed.
There is a complication that comes from this. If you feel uncomfortable with a type of draw, you concentrate on the negative impressions. The bow feels harder to draw, the release seems more uncertain, and you don't feel comfortable at full draw.
When I was learning to use the Chinese cylindrical thumb rings, I first tried to wear them the same way as I would use a Turkish ring. The result was that the string often would press hard against the tendons in the proximal joint of the thumb at its base. I could not draw a heavy bow with the rings at all. Even when it didn't hurt, I felt insecure remembering the pain. Later, when I saw a photograph of a nineteenth century archer and realised that I had the ring in the wrong position, I was able to pull the heaviest bows I could master with that ring.
Due to the nature of archers' rings, I usually draw a heavy bow firstly without anything on my thumb to see if my muscles are up to it. A ring is designed for shooting and if the bow is too strong you may shoot accidentally. Your bare thumb is going to hurt if you release a heavy bow so there is an unconscious desire not to let go.
What I am getting at through that story is that our perceptions of whether a bow is easy or hard to draw are of two kinds. One is objective and related to force draw curves and the physical nature of the bow and the other is psychological and related to our prior experiences and current state of mind. The comment about thumb rings brought that to mind. Strangely, the Manchu strength bows were usually drawn with the fingers and not with the thumb. I think they may have even used all four fingers, but they were not shooting. It might have been because it was easier or perhaps they had my problem with thumb rings where they seem to have a desire to shoot rather than just hold.
The experience that one has with a particular shooting style is the major influence on how you feel about whether it is easier to draw or not. I have used thumb rings for thirty years and to me a three fingered draw seems less easy on heavier bows. I really feel it in the ring finger which feels like it is being crushed.
There is a complication that comes from this. If you feel uncomfortable with a type of draw, you concentrate on the negative impressions. The bow feels harder to draw, the release seems more uncertain, and you don't feel comfortable at full draw.
When I was learning to use the Chinese cylindrical thumb rings, I first tried to wear them the same way as I would use a Turkish ring. The result was that the string often would press hard against the tendons in the proximal joint of the thumb at its base. I could not draw a heavy bow with the rings at all. Even when it didn't hurt, I felt insecure remembering the pain. Later, when I saw a photograph of a nineteenth century archer and realised that I had the ring in the wrong position, I was able to pull the heaviest bows I could master with that ring.
Due to the nature of archers' rings, I usually draw a heavy bow firstly without anything on my thumb to see if my muscles are up to it. A ring is designed for shooting and if the bow is too strong you may shoot accidentally. Your bare thumb is going to hurt if you release a heavy bow so there is an unconscious desire not to let go.
What I am getting at through that story is that our perceptions of whether a bow is easy or hard to draw are of two kinds. One is objective and related to force draw curves and the physical nature of the bow and the other is psychological and related to our prior experiences and current state of mind. The comment about thumb rings brought that to mind. Strangely, the Manchu strength bows were usually drawn with the fingers and not with the thumb. I think they may have even used all four fingers, but they were not shooting. It might have been because it was easier or perhaps they had my problem with thumb rings where they seem to have a desire to shoot rather than just hold.
Bede , Jose,
This is much the way that the use of a thumb ring feels to me . I seem to feel the weight of the bow string not near as much as with three fingers.
Really feel that I could pull more poundage comfortably with a thumb ring than with three fingers.
Alan
This is much the way that the use of a thumb ring feels to me . I seem to feel the weight of the bow string not near as much as with three fingers.
Really feel that I could pull more poundage comfortably with a thumb ring than with three fingers.
Alan
Bede, you got a point. My comment is biased because I used the mediterranean release for 20 years and my thumbring experience is almost new (just a couple of years). I can understand in your case (and Alan too) it feels the opposite.
Just I wonder about the Chinese ring. I never tried one but I know they are radically different to the Turkish-IndoPersian type. How it's supposed to work correctly? The non-Chinese types seems to be more practical.
Just I wonder about the Chinese ring. I never tried one but I know they are radically different to the Turkish-IndoPersian type. How it's supposed to work correctly? The non-Chinese types seems to be more practical.
Bede, how do the techniques differ with different types of ring? Do you have any diagrams to illustrate?
When my computer is feeling better, I will do some diagrams.
There are basically about four standard thumb ring types.
(1) Leather tabs, which act to protect the pad of the thumb and are very accurate.
(2) Short lipped rings that allow a fully flexed thumbs and a classical draw.
(3) Long lipped rings that require a partially flexed thumb.
(4) Cylindrical rings (Manchu) which use the the partially flexed thumb to lock the ring.
In the old days the short lipped rings were regarded as Turkish and the long lipped rings were considered as Persian. Studying paintings and rings with inscriptions suggests that this kind separation is not universal.
There are basically about four standard thumb ring types.
(1) Leather tabs, which act to protect the pad of the thumb and are very accurate.
(2) Short lipped rings that allow a fully flexed thumbs and a classical draw.
(3) Long lipped rings that require a partially flexed thumb.
(4) Cylindrical rings (Manchu) which use the the partially flexed thumb to lock the ring.
In the old days the short lipped rings were regarded as Turkish and the long lipped rings were considered as Persian. Studying paintings and rings with inscriptions suggests that this kind separation is not universal.
Bede- I also waiting on the diagram. I will be grateful.
What Bede said about some rings require the thumb partially flexed is a very important tip. At first I used to flex my thumb too much instinctively. that created unnecessary tension and also pain and frustation. When I learned Kyudo, you learn that the thumb isn?t flexed at all inside the rigid glove and that makes you understand that your thumb don?t need to be flexed in excess around the ring, just the necessary. That really improved my shooting.
Bede , Thanx much for this breakdown of ring types. The only rings that I have used are the ones that I have made myself and have been winging it a bit.
From your suggestion I used bronze for what I consider my best to date and they have a long lip.
Do you have a preference in the type that you use?
Alan
From your suggestion I used bronze for what I consider my best to date and they have a long lip.
Do you have a preference in the type that you use?
Alan
Bede, I think the korean sugakji should be added to your diagram.
Thanks
Thanks
Bede , would it be possible for you to post some corresponding photos to your ring list ?
Alan
Alan
My current favourite ring is a short lipped copper one about a millimetre thick. The dimak (lip) is about the length of the flexed tip of my thumb so that it just touches my middle finger with a tight clench.
Ginni, I didn't include the male Korean thumb ring because I see it more like a modern arrow release than a thumb ring in the old style. There are some African release aids that operate like the male ring and I think they should be grouped together. I feel that, otherwise, the Koreans do not get full credit for the innovation that the male ring represents.
Stephen Selby's book, Chinese Archery, has a diagram of how the Manchu cylindrical ring is used. Once you master the technique, you can draw very strong bows this way. Part of the practice I have been doing is to draw a light bow with a Chinese ring and concentrate on the feeling of the string as I shoot. Then I go back to a heavy bow and try the same thing. This is helpful if you use a thin string on the light bow so you can feel its position on the ring. The other thing you concentrate on is how to rotate the hand to bring the side of the fore finger gently against the arrow to stop the nock from slipping out of position. The Chinese nocks just fit the string and do not grip it like a Turkish arrow does. The cylindrical rings usually leave the thumb slightly numb when using a heavy bow and the result is that you cannot feel with the same sensitivity as with a light bow so you have to perfect your technique first.
My computer is back to normal so I will put together a diagram and some pictures.
Ginni, I didn't include the male Korean thumb ring because I see it more like a modern arrow release than a thumb ring in the old style. There are some African release aids that operate like the male ring and I think they should be grouped together. I feel that, otherwise, the Koreans do not get full credit for the innovation that the male ring represents.
Stephen Selby's book, Chinese Archery, has a diagram of how the Manchu cylindrical ring is used. Once you master the technique, you can draw very strong bows this way. Part of the practice I have been doing is to draw a light bow with a Chinese ring and concentrate on the feeling of the string as I shoot. Then I go back to a heavy bow and try the same thing. This is helpful if you use a thin string on the light bow so you can feel its position on the ring. The other thing you concentrate on is how to rotate the hand to bring the side of the fore finger gently against the arrow to stop the nock from slipping out of position. The Chinese nocks just fit the string and do not grip it like a Turkish arrow does. The cylindrical rings usually leave the thumb slightly numb when using a heavy bow and the result is that you cannot feel with the same sensitivity as with a light bow so you have to perfect your technique first.
My computer is back to normal so I will put together a diagram and some pictures.
I'm using a leather ring now instead of the plastic one I used for years before. I chose the leather ring because I found the plastic one awkward on horseback. It made difficult to handle anything else than the string and moved out of the right position. Now the leather ring worked fine with my old bow (43#@30") but with my new bow (45#@28") I can't find the comfortable position. My arrows keep fishtailing and the joint of my thumb hurts. I wonder what am I doing wrong?
Bede! You wrote that the leather tabs are there to protect the pad of the thumb. Does it mean that I shoud place the string on the pad of the thumb instead of placing it deeper towards the base of the thumb like I used to with my hard ring?
I'm thinking of making a metal ring that is strong enough with a thinner wall. That may solve my problem. But the leater ring is sooo easy :)
Bede! You wrote that the leather tabs are there to protect the pad of the thumb. Does it mean that I shoud place the string on the pad of the thumb instead of placing it deeper towards the base of the thumb like I used to with my hard ring?
I'm thinking of making a metal ring that is strong enough with a thinner wall. That may solve my problem. But the leater ring is sooo easy :)
With a leather ring, the lip is to protect the pad of the thumb from the string sliding over it. The string still sits near the distal joint of the thumb. The trick is to strongly flex the thumb and push it hard against the middle section of the middle finger. This prevents the pad of the thumb "flowing" with the pressure of the string and causes it to move out of the way more efficiently. Sometimes leather tabs whose lips are too long and thin slap the pad of the thumb as the arrow leaves the bow. I guess that this happens a few milliseconds after the the string has left the surface of the tab.
I would advise a leather tab that was thicker at the base near where the thumb goes through the loop and not too long in the tip if using a fully flexed thumb. If you use a partially flexed thumb, make sure the lip is big enough to cover that part of the pad of the thumb that touches the middle section of the middle finger.
I would advise a leather tab that was thicker at the base near where the thumb goes through the loop and not too long in the tip if using a fully flexed thumb. If you use a partially flexed thumb, make sure the lip is big enough to cover that part of the pad of the thumb that touches the middle section of the middle finger.